I think this speaks to the declining participation in recognized shows - which there was another thread about recently. Why spend all that money and hassle of travel and endure bad weather to show at a competition where you may have a potentially lousy time competing against people who make you look and feel terrible because you are so out of their league?
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and
These are not the people we should writing the rules for, imo. If you choose to buy your bronze, then there may be consequences down the line if you canāt actually ride at that level.
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Iāve shown at CBLMs before and always thought it was a better system than open/am. I think the key would be to keep it fairly simple and ditch the current open/ammy split so that youāre not just creating more tiny divisions. Though the question then is, what do you do with the GP divisions? Would that just be all open? Would you split it open/ammy, by # of horses ridden at that level, or by # of rides at that level? At CBLMs, I-1 and up is all just Open, as are the freestyles.
In eventing it seems that the organizers try to put a roughly equal number of entries in each division at a level, which leads to some inconsistency. Iāve definitely been put in Open when I am eligible for Rider and put Rider as my first preference. I suspect they are trying to keep division sizes similar so that multiple dressage rings can run simultaneously and everyone can get similar/adequate time between their dressage and jumping rounds?
Thankfully that scheduling concern wouldnāt be an issue in dressage. I think for this to be meaningful, organizers should be required to put everyone eligible for the āRiderā division in there unless they specify that they want to be in Open.
I also think any proposed rule change for dressage should have a time limit, and 5 years seems like a good oneāshort enough for the experience to be relevant but long enough to discourage gaming of the system. If someone did NAYRC on a schoolmaster as a young adult then took 20 years off of riding, it seems fairer to put that person with other middle-aged adults going up the levels for the first time than with the pros and high-level amateurs. (And selfishly, as someone who brought a single horse up to GP after 13 years of blood, sweat, and tears, and who hasnāt ridden at that level since 2018āI wouldnāt mind not competing against the pros and high-level amateurs when my young horse gets out and about. That said, he is pretty darn fancy so Iām sure I would be one of those amateurs others complain about.)
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Its an interesting idea.
If the goal is to make competing more friendly to newcomers and develop more grass-roots level riders, maybe we keep the divisions as they currently are, but create āgreen riderā division for newbies?
Yes, these people frequently show in training or intro, but Iāve witnessed AAs with deep pockets but low talent/time remain with their full-training nice horses in these levels show year after year. Is it a ribbon grab? It is a confidence issue? I certainly donāt know, but creating a āgreen riderā division and separating novice showers from the more seasoned AAs who like to dwell in the lower levels might help the shaky AA who is dipping her toe into showing get some confidence in what can be an overwhelming experience.
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Iād be fine with rider experience be the divider but Iām also not terribly fussed by the current divisions (although irl I know people who do get very upset e.g. about a YR showing FEI and 1sst in the same show). Iām never going to be one of the wealthy riders one a fancy horse who can afford all the training - Iām out there on a stock horse with a disabled-but-not-the-right-kind-for-para body - in the end, Iām doing the best I can do to ask my horse to the best she can do.
But Laurenās proposal reminds me of what we do in AKC companion dog sports; there are A & B divisions, and itās determined by the experience the handler has. Once I have titled a dog in Advanced Rally, I can only compete with any dog in the B category for that level and any levels below that. Thereās a definite difference in scores between the two (Bās are much more competitive) but just like dressage, even if my dog gets 100 at a level consistently with me, sheās not going to do the same with my spouse without work. Obviously, we donāt have titling in dressage, but I donāt see why we can do percentages and quantity of percentages like we do for medals, championships, or MFS qualifications.
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At a glance, and admittedly without knowing a ton about this system, that does seem like it resolves the GP issue. What does ātitlingā involve? Do you have to place? Get a certain score?
That was an incredibly competitive class at Regionalsā¦a friend rode in it and the top ten rides were 70 or above. If you were in the ribbons you should be psyched! She was getting 70ās all over the place at that level this year but only scored mid 60ās at the Regionals. She also used to ride FEI and has a really nice horse currently. So showing FEI and first level on a different horse does not always get you the ribbon.
Actually, yes.
Now, if these shows were separated like it is in Eventing, you would enter 3rd level in the Rider division, as your horse has competed higher, but TL Horse, since your horse does not have the higher experience.
In both cases, youād be competing against people and/or horses of similar experience, with few, if any, ringers. You donāt have to stay in the same division all the way through the levels.
You could also choose to enter Open division if you feel neither of those divisions was appropriate, but you would then be competing against āprofessionalsā.
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Just want to clarify - So a professional can enter the horse division with a green horse that has not really done anything, correct?
So those who are upset about having to compete with Olympians will still have to compete with Olympians.
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Actually, no.
An Olympian would have to enter Open, as the Rider/Horse divisions are limited to 1 (one) level above the division entered.
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But I thought the horse division was on what the horse had done, not the rider.
Am I not understanding correctly?
You are correct, a professional can enter a horse division on an appropriately qualified horse. They can also enter a rider division if they are qualified- so someone who teaches little kids but hasnāt competed above, say, prelim, could compete in a training rider division.
USEA does also give amateur points- so while ribbons are by who is in the division on the day, separate ammy points are awarded with the pros in the division removed- those points can qualify you for AECs etc in ammy divisions.
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At our local events, Horse (i.e. pros on green beans) often combines with Open. Then Rider (green riders on schoolies) runs separately.
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Sorry for the delay- I was looking for the exact wording.
Here it is, from the USEA Rule Book:
"1. SECTIONS
1.1 JUNIOR (J) - For the purpose of competing in National Horse Trials competitors may compete as Juniors through the end of the calendar year of their 18th birthday.
1.2 YOUNG RIDER (YR) - Open to competitors from the beginning of the calendar year of their 16th birthday through the end of the calendar year of their 21st birthday.
1.3 AMATEUR (A) The following may participate in Eventing competitions as an Amateur Any competitor in possession of a valid Amateur card issued by the Federation; or Any Senior USEA member who competes in the Training, Novice or Beginner Novice Level who meets the requirements of Federation GR1306. Individuals declaring such status must present, upon demand, an audited financial statement in support of the claim of eligibility; failure to do so will be deemed a violation. Misrepresenta-tion of eligibility under this provision will subject an individual to disciplinary action under GR1307.6, GR1307.8, and GR1308.3. Amateur certification under this provision is valid for Eventing competitions only and does not confer Amateur status for participation in any other Breed or Discipline.
1.4 For the purposes of this rule, in differentiating eligibility for Horse and Rider sections, FEI divisions are considered to be one level higher than the equivalent Nation-al division, e.g. FEI Two Star is one level higher than a Preliminary Horse Trial. A rider who has completed an event at the Advanced Level is not eligible to compete as an Intermediate rider.
**1.5 RIDER Ā® - Open to competitors who have not completed an event above the next highest level in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition, e.g. a Novice Rider may have completed an event at Training level, but not Modified or Preliminary level or higher in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition; a Training Rider may have completed an event at Modified or Preliminary level, but not Intermediate level or higher in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition.
1.6 HORSE (H) - Open to competitors of any age, horse may not have completed an event above the next high-est level. e.g. a Novice Horse may have completed an event at Training level, but not Modified or Preliminary level or higher; a Training Horse may have completed an event at Modified or Preliminary level, but not Intermediate level or higher.** "
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For most, it requires 2-3 qualifying scores at the level (except for select cumulative titles which require more scores at multiple levels). The Q scores arenāt prohibitively high either, comparable to in difficulty to getting a 60 in dressage. It always seemed fair to me (caveat, my now-retired dog while having unreal anxiety was a real try-er so made our rally work really easy, obedience was dependent on the environment around us because of the stays).
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It was super competitive, and my horse really stepped up to the occasion that day. He definitely had his game face on. It was our personal best score that year. I didnāt actually place though, I ended up right below the ribbons. My horse had a little bobble at the end of the test that just barely kept us from placing. But since I was the third person to go, I got to lead the class for most of the day, which was fun. I know how insanely competitive Region 8 is, and I was super thrilled with the score.
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Thatās awesome congratulations!!
Yes.
But I want to point out that, in Eventing, you do not ENTER a particular division/section. On you entry form, you state what sections you are ELIGIBLE for (Horse, Rider, Amateur, etc.) and list your preferences.
But then the Organizer (or more likely the Secretary) decides which section to actually put you in.
So you might set your preferences as 1-Rider 1-Horse 3-Amateur, and end up in an Open section.
Conversely, you could put your preferences as 1-Open 2-Amateur 3-Horse and end up in a Rider division (assuming you are eligible).
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I was making the point about the CURRENT proposal, which has nothing to do with Laurenās idea.
Someone could make that proposal next year.
