WOndering why we are having a huge discussion about eventing rules here in Dressage, while the proposed rule changes that WILL affect us are dismissed??
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Right, but the thread was started based on Laurenâs article, which was about dividing rider divisions based on experience rather than income. She mentions the rule proposal, but itâs not the basis of her article.
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THANK YOU for dropping in- I had hoped you would. You always explain things so much clearer than almost anyone else, especially me!!
Is it really so terrible for everyone to ride in the same class/division? Here in South Africa, the amateurs and pros are not separated at all. You just compete together.
A few of the show-holding bodies (a very few) will have a âbest amateurâ prize/rosette for certain classes as well.
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we are all going to switch to eventing! LOL
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Is it really a competition when someone who works full time and can ride maybe three or four times a week is in the same class as someone who rides four or five horses a day, five or six days a week?
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It could be interesting finding the best dividing lines for classes. I think you would give shows options to combine to make decent size classes based upon their entries.
My initial thoughts:
Class A: Rider has not shown any horse more than one level above what is entered.
Class B: Rider has not shown any horse more than two levels above in the last three years.
Class C: Open. Could be divided by shown FEI or not if entries warrant.
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I like the idea of Horse/Rider/Open classifications, and feel that dressage should do this. But I had no idea this is how you got in a class. Why have the divisions at all if the Secretary just arbitrarily assigns you to one you didnât even list?
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Once upon a time, the classes at hunter shows were divided maiden, limit, open. Maiden = never won a first place, limit = 3 or less first places. Great for newbies who yes do want a cheap ribbon! Racing does this general idea too. Obviously it wouldnât transfer directly. I think the general idea of offering lower level classes divided by experience or previous scores would be popular.
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If I had a dollar for every person I know who bought an upper level (even a mid-level) dressage horse and couldnât ride one side of it, Iâd be a rich, rich woman. What a lot of people donât realize is that even if you buy a trained horse, getting on it and actually riding it is Not Easy.
Iâm a pretty competent rider. I have my Bronze and 3 of 4 scores for my Silver. I had the great good fortune to sit on a VERY nice, very well trained Grand Prix horse this week, and goddamn if that wasnât one of the hardest rides Iâve had in a while. And I say that as someone who is currently almost as PSG with my second self-made horse. It would take me 6 months to really RIDE that GP horse, and get it to do any kind of close approximation of what youâd want to see in the PSG, much less the GP (although his pi-pa was a-freaking-mazing).
I think Laurenâs suggestion is a good one. But it also is not a panacea - weâll never get to perfect equity.
Someone on some thread suggested that amateurs who do all the riding themselves should not have to compete against AAs who have their horses in full training. What about people like me? My trainer sits on my horse a few times a year, and sometimes sheâll stay in training for a week or two at a time. Does that make me âless thanâ those who never have a pro sit on their horse? I donât think so. Thereâs also a lot of people who simply canât - due to talent, time, fear, what-have-you - make their own horses from scratch. I mean, its a hard, soul sucking endeavor sometimes. Its not for everyone.
I guess this is all a long way of saying weâre all on our own journey and we just need to be clear about what shows can and canât tell us about where we are on that journey. Theyâre a moment in time. Sometimes the results are awesome. Its subjective. We need to find peace with that as individuals. I have, and when I get beat by someone with a fancier horse or more resources to devote to training, I remember that Iâm still proud of where I am and what Iâve been able to accomplish.
As Lauren said, ribbons are nice! I like them. My zoom background is my ribbon quit and the âbigâ ribbons Iâve won as an adult. A lot of them are brown. And purple. And green. But they make me happy because I know how I got them and thatâs what we all need to remember.
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Here in Area 3, we almost always end up in our preferred division. But there are plenty of horses and riders here to fill those divisions. In other areas, there may not be enough entries to justify creating the division; most often the secretary will make the divisions Open to keep them balanced. Such as: 4 riders enter Rider division; 4 riders enter Horse division; and 20 riders enter Open. The secretary will most likely create two Open divisions of 14 entries each. A good secretary will look at the recent qualifying events on each entry and separate the divisions as equally as possible based on experience/results.
This doesnât always happen, as when Buck, Leslie, and Jessica Phoenix have 4 horses each per levelâŠthe secretary must separate their ride times enough, so typically their horses will be scattered throughout Open or Horse divisions as appropriate.
I have always felt the Horse/Rider/Open divisions was the most fair way to separate entries. A Novice level working student who gets to trot my horses is technically a pro, but in no way is she at the same competitive level as an Olympian. Thus she enters the Novice Rider division against other novices, and the Olympian is in Open or Horse division. Similarly, my young green, first-time Prelim horse is likely more competitive in Prelim Horse, versus Open Prelim that may have early-season 4* horses knocking the rust off.
I also want to note that eligibility for Horse or Rider division is based on highest level COMPLETED, not highest level entered. If you get eliminated, retire, or withdraw and fail to finish at that level, it does not count for your eligibility. In dressage, itâs probably a given that you will complete your test, but if it was such a disaster that you fail to score, say 50-55%, perhaps that should not count against eligibility for a lower rider division.
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They are not SUPPOSED to assign you to a section you didnât say you were eligible for, but it has happened. See âAnecdoteâ at the end of this post.
I am NOT trying to turn this into an Eventing discussion.
I can tell you âWHY?â from a rules perspective, but I canât tell you why those rules were put in place, as the basic structure was there before I started following rules changes.
The rules (EV133 in particular), say that, except at championships, divisions at the lower levels (Beginner Novice through Preliminary) MUST be split if there are more than 40 entries. (At Intermediate and Advanced it MAY be split once if there are more than 40 entries.)
It is at the organizerâs discretion whether to split them randomly, or by the criteria in âAppendix 3â, which are:
Junior
Young Rider
Amateur
Horse
Rider
Young Horse
Open
The organizers like to have sections of relatively similar size. They do not want to have one section with three entries, and another with 38 entries. (And the riders in the 38 entry section would not be happy either.) So they pick and choose between splitting randomly, splitting by Appendix 3 criteria, and accommodating riders with multiple sources, which requires scheduling so that their dressage, cross country, and show jumping times do not conflict.
Anecdote.
About 20 years ago my sister was a professional competing at the Advanced level. (Her horse was Mare of the Year in 2002.) She was riding a clientâs green horse in Novice at a local (recognized) Horse Trial (this was before Beginner Novice was a recognized division). She listed that they were eligible for âHorseâ and âOpenâ. When the times came out, they had put her in âNovice Riderâ!
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This is how it was in the late 80âs early 90âs for my areaâs h/j association shows. Sometimes there were so many maiden entries that they did an age split - Under 11 Maiden Short Stirrup and Over 11 Maiden Short Stirrup. Unimportant for this purpose, but brings back memories. Thanks!
In eventing there is rarely a meaningful difference between the âopenâ and âhorseâ divisions - they are both green horse/more experienced rider classes.
As others have said, depending on numbers/schedule, not all organizers end up running rider divisions, even if they are initially advertised.
There are drawbacks to either system. One difference I notice in the proposal is that in this proposal you would be classified for life (not so in eventing) which would get rid of the âOlympian in the rider divisionâ issue described upthread.
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You all really should. Itâs a hoot - and you can have a horrific dressage test and still end up having a good show that you go home from pretty dang happy. It is also true that the drive home can be long, sad and depressing; however it usually not from losing to ms professional suzy q but from your own mistake(s).
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Completely agree with this logic, and have the same experience. Once youâve ridden FEI, training/first is really a snooze fest, and with a quality horse anything under 70% is a bad ride. I absolutely shouldnât be showing my young warmblood against kids on ponies, and adult reriders, etc.
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If you truly believe this, you should show open. IDK, maybe you do.
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I think it depends on what you are doing. Riding a four year old at training level in his first year of showing is WAAAAAY more challenging to me than it was to ride my last horse at grand prix after I trained her for 8 years.
I am a fan of more divisions, however I wonder how practical it is to put that on show managers. I have been repeatedly told by our show managers here that they donât make any money. If you ask them to do more work, it might not be worth it for them.
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In AQHA you get points. You start as a Novice Amateur until you point out. And while they donât have levels (TL, 1st, 2nd, etc), you can show in any class to get those points - trail, WP, HUSâŠ
Points are awarded by the placing you get in the class and the number of horses, meaning a first place when there were only 2 horses in the class gets you fewer points that if there were 10 horses in the class.
In a sense it would separate those people who just show at local farm shows because it would take longer to get those points than someone who shows at the bigger shows where there are more competitors. I would guess that more of the grass roots amateurs (me included) show at the farm shows than the BNT or amateurs with a lot of money who go down to Florida.
Just an idea.
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actually that is a fairly sensible approach. Does require a federation oversight which is responsive and nimble and show management using a unified software
