Do horses deserve breakfast before being ridden?

[Flash44]

Buddy, I understand your point, but at sometime we all grow up and learn to “roll with the punches” or “handle the curve ball.” Same with horses. In the baby stages of learning you keep things very simple and change only small things at a time. As they progress, you can take them further out and expect them to handle it. Like going to a horse show or on a large group trail ride over varied terrain. The OP horse is acting like a baby, like a horse with less than 60 days on it. Resulting in a bad lesson, which imho is a waste of money.

Just that fact that the horse would not stand still in the crossties is a red flag. Being tied up is my first notice to a horse that it’s work time. It’s one of the basic foundation lessons and something they learn early on. If the horse is fidgety while tied up, it’s not ready to be ridden and some ground work needs to be done to get its head in the game.

[Kolsch]

Being ridden before breakfast is somewhat part of my routine. They don’t seem to have issues with it. Of course, my barn, my rules, my feeding schedule and I’m not dragging away one horse just as the others are settling down to a buffet. When away from home I try to avoid riding when the food wagon is being dragged down the aisle as it IS quite distracting, but sometimes it’s unavoidable and I do expect the horse to focus as much as it possibly can. (oh, young horses! lol!)

I also never work a horse on an empty stomach, they are given an alfalfa mash as I groom.

[quietann]

Well we can look at it from a health standpoint, or a behavior standpoint. I meant health here, especially since yes, the horse goes for several hours with no hay during the night — and there is NOTHING I can do about that, unless I want an obese horse (bad bad idea given her age and breed.) I don’t count horses out on grass or with free choice hay as “not having eaten breakfast” because from a health standpoint, they don’t have an empty stomach.

I should have made it clear, her “grain” is 1/2 pound of ration balancer, not at all rich, and it takes me half of forever to get her and me ready, so it’s not like she’s eating and I’m on her 20-30 minutes later. Think more like an hour. So the problem yesterday is that she’d had almost no hay. The key I think is either to get to the barn earlier to be sure she has a chance to get at least a flake of hay before I bring her up, or rig some way for her to eat that hay while in the cross-ties. The way this particular barn is set up, and the barn rules makes that difficult if not impossible.

She has no stall (dry lot and shed down a hill from the barn; the horse can live in a stall, but she has arthritis and being in a place where she can mosey around helps a lot with that.) Because of this, she gets fed last unless I’m there early enough to feed her myself.

Flash44 really cracks me up. This horse can be left unattended in the cross ties for 30 minutes or more. She usually falls asleep. She has been a favorite of barn workers and barn owners and vets and farriers at every place I’ve had her because she is SO easy to handle. She is safe safe safe. Wiggly doesn’t mean straining around trying to break the ties (which she has done ONCE in 7 1/2 years.) But Flash44, who has never met this horse, is convinced she’s a horrible awful spoiled beast… whatever.

[goodhors]

An idea for cross ties feeding if you get there late to find she had no breakfast yet, is using a nosebag for getting some food into her. Pellets of timothy/alfalfa come to mind as the best choice to use in a nosebag. Filling, not grain or sweet, to hold her over thru the lesson. You would need to let her get head down to ground to lip up the pellets on bottom, but she should manage a good serving while you groom and tack up. Then she will have stuff in her stomach during lesson. Cubes could work, might take longer to chew, not as much eaten in that short time. Of course offer a drink before bridling, both are pretty dry.

[Laurierace]

Racehorses never get fed until after training is over.

[quietann]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;8264754]
Racehorses never get fed until after training is over.[/QUOTE]

Are they getting hay overnight?

[quietann]

[QUOTE=goodhors;8264714]
An idea for cross ties feeding if you get there late to find she had no breakfast yet, is using a nosebag for getting some food into her. Pellets of timothy/alfalfa come to mind as the best choice to use in a nosebag. Filling, not grain or sweet, to hold her over thru the lesson. You would need to let her get head down to ground to lip up the pellets on bottom, but she should manage a good serving while you groom and tack up. Then she will have stuff in her stomach during lesson. Cubes could work, might take longer to chew, not as much eaten in that short time. Of course offer a drink before bridling, both are pretty dry.[/QUOTE]

I’ve thought about nosebags. Getting the head down is an issue because of the cross-ties; quite frankly, though, I could put a hay flake of hay on the barn aisle floor, leave the cross ties off, and she wouldn’t go anywhere, trust me. If there very early I sometimes put the wheelbarrow used to store loose flakes of hay in front of her, leave her off the crossties, and just have the lead rope over her neck, but when the feeders show up, they need the wheelbarrow. (This is not ground-tying, obviously, but she does ground tie reasonably well.)

At this point, I’m thinking “just get there early.” Feeding times are +/- one hour, so if I need her fed before the “+ 1 hour” I need to get there early enough to do it myself if I need to. (And I actually agree with whoever said they don’t like feed times absolutely set in stone, because if something goes sideways, a horse used to being fed, say, at exactly 5 p.m. will get more upset about being fed at 6 p.m. than one who gets fed “sometime between 4 and 6 but usually around 5.”)

Buddyroo and others, thanks for pointing out that especially in a lesson situation, for the best results I want the horse at her best – and that includes being sure she has had enough to eat.

[newhorsemommy]

I also would have preferred to feed hay while tacking up, but it was very impractical, also due to the set up and barn rules. That’s why I went with the soaked alfalfa pellets. It’s not a grain, and I figured alfalfa would be the best choice for the calcium. I feed the pellets in their lunches anyways, so it was easy enough to buy another small bowl kept in the feed room just for use while tacking up.

[Mukluk]

Mine have hay 24/7 so it is never an issue. It makes housekeeping at home so much easier than having to worry about being home at certain times for their meals (my schedule is to weird for that).

[SuzieQNutter]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;8264754]
Racehorses never get fed until after training is over.[/QUOTE]

I have just attended a lecture by a vet. We were taught that 90% of racehorses in America have ulcers. 75% of racehorses in Australia have ulcers.

OP hay is better than grain before you ride because of the amount of saliva that is produced. The same amount of saliva is not produced for a feed.

[LarkspurCO]

Oh my god, your horse fidgeted in the cross-ties? Send her back to boot camp! :lol:

Some of my best rides have come after a very spirited tacking up session, but my horses are hot and like to work. I will do ground work when the horse needs it or to help warm them up, but sometimes if they are having trouble standing still it just means they are ready to GO.

To circumvent the stomach acid sloshing around I usually feed a handful of TUMS or some alfalfa pellets or cubes before riding.

[Linda]

Before I retired, I rode at 6 in the AM so I could get a ride or lesson in before work. I always gave my guy some hay to chew on while I tacked him up…so he had about 20 minutes of hay before he went to work. I think it made a difference for him. I always make sure I have eaten something before I ride because I just feel better if I do. So I think the same thing applies to my horse.

[Pocket_Pony]

Do kids deserve breakfast before they go to school? Haven’t studies shown that kids who don’t get breakfast before school have more behavior problems and learning difficulties than kids who do get breakfast? Or low blood sugar? Too bad - you must roll with the punches, neglect symptoms and suck it up, buttercup.

Of course your horse deserves breakfast before your lesson. To suggest that ground work will solve all the problems of the horse world is a bit far-fetched, especially since the OP has had this horse a long time, they have a great partnership, and the horse is a solid citizen. Ground work most definitely has its place, but IMHO it is the wise horsewoman who first sets her horse up for success before deciding that ground work would be the necessary course of action.

quietann, since it sounds like you have your horse’s best interests at heart, and you have the ability to get to the barn early I think you have your answer. Even just a half flake of hay before you ride will make a difference.

[TWH_Girl]

I feel better and more able to concentrate on the task at hand when fed. Why wouldn’t a horse?

[caper]

It is like an athlete running on a full stomach. Mine did great without his breakfast for an early morning ride. Once he was cooled out and returned to his stall he had all the time in the world to enjoy his grain and hay. Your only asking them to work an hour out of 24. I don’t think they honestly care unless of course the rest of the barn is kicking down the door for grain. I was usually tacked up and outside before they were even out to feed.

[Bogie]

My horse is out 24/7. I usually feed him at least some of his breakfast before I ride. Same with my mare. They are just more relaxed. I don’t wait an hour to ride them though, I groom, tack up and go.

[heronponie]

@quietann;8264698

Well we can look at it from a health standpoint, or a behavior standpoint. I meant health here, especially since yes, the horse goes for several hours with no hay during the night — and there is NOTHING I can do about that, unless I want an obese horse (bad bad idea given her age and breed.) I don’t count horses out on grass or with free choice hay as “not having eaten breakfast” because from a health standpoint, they don’t have an empty stomach.

You could try feeding the same ration of hay but use slow-feed hay nets. Most boarding barns I’ve been at are willing to put the bags out of the owner fills them up. I used to fill 2 days worth of hay bags at a time in case I couldn’t get to the barn every day.

Personally I’d do it for all the hay meals, not just the nighttime one, to stretch it all out and keep her eating as long as possible each day.

The trouble with feeding smaller rations of hay with long stretches of fasting in between is that it increases stress = horse is producing way too much cortisol = they retain weight even worse than before.

There is a basic equine nutrition course that is run online through Coursera a couple of times per year that you might like to take. It walks you through the function of each component of the horse’s digestive system and may be beneficial as you advocate for your horse. I know it can be really tough to do that when you’re stuck in a boarding situation that is falling short in this area, but not bad enough overall that you’d want to leave. I’ve been there too! But as troublesome as it can be, your horse really needs you to be her voice on issues like these. She’s telling you as clearly as she can by her behaviour. She’s lucky to have an owner who listens.

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=quietann;8264124]
So the mare was extra-cranky in my lesson this morning. The barn girl had arrived a little late, and the turnout rotations had changed, so all the mare got was 1/2 flake of hay and her (not very big) breakfast of less than a pound of ration balancer with her usual morning supps and previcox. She was waiting at the gate making her “OMG I am starving” noises and pacing and pawing when I went to get her. She is, um, extremely dramatic about anything having to do with food. (Many horses are like this, but Morgan mares are almost universally like this

She was super wiggly on the cross ties and I did give her a few hay scraps by hand. As I said, the lesson didn’t go well. She was tight and cranky and didn’t improve that much even after the trainer rode her for a few minutes. And she was turning herself inside out afterward, very anxious to be turned out, and I should have carried at least one flake with me when I put her out, instead of putting her out and then getting her hay. (Happy horse gets to spend the afternoon eating her usual morning hay AND her lunch hay. And no she doesn’t have ulcers. And free choice hay would turn most of the horses at the barn into blimps, so they do go for some number of hours without hay overnight. Hay rations are extremely generous compared to most barns around here anyway.)

My usual thing, with morning lessons, has been to be sure she has time to eat even if it means getting to the barn early. Up until today I have not needed to go early on Saturdays because she was getting time to eat at least half her morning hay before I got her. It just seems fair to me; I can’t do my best if I am hungry so why should I expect her to? BTW this doesn’t necessarily extend to grain; I do understand why some people wait, but getting some hay into them sounds like the right thing … but some people seem to think it’s “indulgent” or unnecessary.

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

I only have the OP’s words to go on to formulate an opinion. “Extra-cranky” “turning herself inside out” “super wiggly”. But OP, if someone says something negative about your horse’s manners, then she is a barn favorite? Not trying to argue, but what are you expecting when you use those specific phrases? Is this the same mare that you described this way in the halter/bridle combo thread “Mare is a little bit herdbound so that’s no surprise, though she’s lost her mind when horses have gone to the other side of really scary water.”

And I’m not trying to give you a hard time, but you seem to be looking for a specific kind of answer. According to what you’ve posted on more than one thread, you have a horse that cooperates when she feels like it. I don’t think it has much to do with whether or not she did or did not have breakfast, I think it has to do with respect. I have my own issues with some of my horses. No one has to agree with me, and I hope you continue to have many wonderful hours with her. I just know what works for me, and it’s not peppermints or a magic blue bucket. It’s many hours of hard work training them to react and behave in a certain way. I have a spooky one that has gone from “wheel buck and run” to simply spooking in place. I may never get any better but at least the horse is safe to ride and no longer panics.

[Calvincrowe]

My gelding always has a better lesson after he has had breakfast or dinner, simple as that. After 7 years together, I’ve figured out his pattern and it works for us. So, OP, if your mare has, like so many other “air fern types”, not had food in front of her 24/7, then yes, breakfast before work is correct. (which after watching pastured horses is something of a utopian myth…they really don’t eat constantly, and can actually go hours without chowing…all on their own!)

With my horse, he will be distracted and difficult if I ride while the other horses are being fed, or if I pull him off his food. Unfortunately, that happened fairly often at one barn where dinner coincided with lessons every day. Ugh. No chance to change either feeding time or lesson time. I took to trying to arrive early and at least giving him hay for 30 minutes before hand. Some horses are routine bound, and no amount of ground work, force or training will really alter that in my opinion. Sure, you can “change” them, but no one is happy in the end. Some horses are go with the flow, change whenever. Many are not. Sure, you can ride before they eat (like Laurierace’s race horses) if that is what they are used to, but suddenly changing up the food routine for a food oriented horse like the OP’s? Not going to go well.

[candyappy]

I have in the past ridden at daybreak well before the other horses were fed ( when boarding) and that went fine.

The problems seem to be when the horses are asked to work at feeding time. I always make sure they have eaten hay first especially when they don’t have it ( or pasture) in front of them 24/7.