Just FYI, a horse’s stomach empties in about 20 minutes after it stops eating. As many have noted, horses produce stomach acid at all times. Stomach acid is hydrochloric acid (HCl). It has a pH of 2. (Ouch!) The lower part of a horse’s stomach is protected from the HCl by a mucous coating. the upper part of a horse’s stomach (closer to the cardiac sphincter and esophagus) is not protected from HCl. With food in the stomach, specifically hay or other dense forage material, splashing of the acid when moving is unlikely and less of a concern, at least during the initial portion of a workout. On an empty stomach, a moving (working) horse will suffer HCl acid splashing into the unprotected portion of the stomach and/or into the lower esophagus. This is painful and will cause ulcers and it is to prevent acid splashing and to buffer pH of the stomach and its contents that many learned horsefolk feed alfalfa in some form or another prior to a ride.
So, in answer to your question, yes, horses are better off having a meal before a ride.
[QUOTE=quietann;8264768]
Are they getting hay overnight?[/QUOTE]
Hay is 24/7 except the few hours before a race.
[QUOTE=heronponie;8264981]
You could try feeding the same ration of hay but use slow-feed hay nets. Most boarding barns I’ve been at are willing to put the bags out of the owner fills them up. I used to fill 2 days worth of hay bags at a time in case I couldn’t get to the barn every day.
Personally I’d do it for all the hay meals, not just the nighttime one, to stretch it all out and keep her eating as long as possible each day.
The trouble with feeding smaller rations of hay with long stretches of fasting in between is that it increases stress = horse is producing way too much cortisol = they retain weight even worse than before.
There is a basic equine nutrition course that is run online through Coursera a couple of times per year that you might like to take. It walks you through the function of each component of the horse’s digestive system and may be beneficial as you advocate for your horse. I know it can be really tough to do that when you’re stuck in a boarding situation that is falling short in this area, but not bad enough overall that you’d want to leave. I’ve been there too! But as troublesome as it can be, your horse really needs you to be her voice on issues like these. She’s telling you as clearly as she can by her behaviour. She’s lucky to have an owner who listens.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the compliments!
She already gets several of her hay feeds, including the night one, in a NibbleNet with the smallest holes available (1 1/4 inch.) She’s just extremely clever and speedy at getting hay out of anywhere … But as I said, she’d blimp out if allowed all the hay she wants, cold winters excepted.
The only thing people have to be careful about is, if they aren’t putting her hay in the NN, to not put it anywhere close to a fence line she shares with another horse. She is very protective of her food – when it comes to other horses. She’s not perfectly mannerly with people, but she does not charge, bite, or kick them, just sort of hovers in the background making noise, and if you tell her to back off, she will.
Her obsession with food amuses people. She sometimes is brought in to help “clean stalls” of a few horses that don’t eat all their hay. I’m fine with this as long as they don’t poop in it. But the first thing she will do is stick her nose on the floor under their grain feeders and clean up every single speck of hard feed. BO’s husband has watched her graze and admires her “speed and efficiency” at picking through every bite she takes, spitting out the stuff she doesn’t like, and going on.
Flash44, I doubt she would live up to your standards, but yes, the same horse can be wiggly and also a barn favorite. Today, her “wiggling in the cross ties” lasted about a minute and within a few minutes more, she was perfectly still and dozing. That’s pretty typical for her.
She has all sorts of reasons to be cranky in lessons, from lack of breakfast to plain old aches and pains. Trainers tend to like her, but agree with me that she is very easy to ride, but quite hard to ride well. Luckily, if one can’t ride her well, she’s pretty forgiving, and certainly will not dump you or otherwise endanger you. She did, at one point, have a big spook in her, but these days she’s a spook-in-place type.
I guess I describe her as “having opinions, but polite about it.” I cannot tell you how many times I have said to her, “sorry mare, I know you don’t like it, but it doesn’t matter.”
As for the thread about water crossings … geeze, do you know how many horses out there won’t cross water, won’t even get close to it in fact? Do you know how many horses won’t trail ride alone, or trail ride at all? She has “issues” with water, but most of the time she’s okay. I was just disappointed last Sunday that I didn’t get her into the water, in a situation that was far from ideal given this particular horse.
No, she’s not perfect but she’s improved so much in the 7 1/2 years I’ve had her. I know her issues and am at the point where I’m not working around them as much as through them.
This post was really an opinion-gathering post, and it seems that for horses kept as she is, the general consensus is “yes, feed them.”
I figure that I deserve to eat breakfast before I ride in the morning. Since my mare is doing most of the work, she deserves to eat more than I do. 
I haven’t read all the replies, but I also found “deserve” an odd word choice. Particularly since she was given Previcox, I’d want to make sure she had some forage before the ride. Hang a net while grooming and tacking if you have to.
Well, I wouldn’t ever have that problem because my horses all either have hay or grass available 24/7. I also do not feed grain at a specific schedule- since they all get fed grain for 1 meal during the day it’s whenever I can, sometimes morning, sometimes night so there’s never any meal anticipation.
[QUOTE=tabula rashah;8266143]
Well, I wouldn’t ever have that problem because my horses all either have hay or grass available 24/7. I also do not feed grain at a specific schedule- since they all get fed grain for 1 meal during the day it’s whenever I can, sometimes morning, sometimes night so there’s never any meal anticipation.[/QUOTE]
That is very nice, but I board. I have to be at the barn for any deviations from the normal feeding schedule. Saturday was a matter of the barn worker being late, not me.
And for another poster: yes, the Previcox makes it even more important that she have a good bit of hay to eat before riding.
It depends on the magnitude of the expected effort. A half-hour hack or flat workout should be no big deal even if the horse hasn’t eaten. For the vast majority of our horses, the “work” they do is so slight they really don’t have a physiological “need” for concentrates at all. The main issue is the horse may be inattentive and PO’d if all his friends are being fed and he’s in the arena!
However, a major all-day effort like foxhunting or a hunter pace or Event DOES require that the horse be properly fed, and even have time to digest, before that effort begins. When people here are heading out for such, I have them feed the horse his grain while grooming, make sure he has a full hay net on the trailer, and offer him a drink before tacking up when they reach the meet or event grounds. That way he’s had the duration of the ride to get the energy into his system for the substantial effort he’s about to make. We are not talking about a great deal of grain here; if you have a guy who needs 16 quarts, you better show up and feed him 2-3 hours before the Big Effort.
[QUOTE=quietann;8266176]
That is very nice, but I board. I have to be at the barn for any deviations from the normal feeding schedule. Saturday was a matter of the barn worker being late, not me.
And for another poster: yes, the Previcox makes it even more important that she have a good bit of hay to eat before riding.[/QUOTE]
You seem to be in an extra snarky mood lately. I apologize for having answered the question that was in your title as it pertains to me and my situation.
BTW, your mare totally has your number- she’s a Morgan and she’s working it to her advantage. Don’t feel bad- they’re not really the type of horse for everybody.
[QUOTE=tabula rashah;8266362]
You seem to be in an extra snarky mood lately. I apologize for having answered the question that was in your title as it pertains to me and my situation.
BTW, your mare totally has your number- she’s a Morgan and she’s working it to her advantage. Don’t feel bad- they’re not really the type of horse for everybody.[/QUOTE]
My apologies … You in particular were not someone who deserved to be a target for my snark, such as it is.
I do get tired sometimes of hearing so much from people whose horses have 24/7 pasture or hay, it’s lovely and I know it’s better for most horses, but that is not the reality of most boarding barns that are within 30-50 miles of any big city in New England.
I guess the word “deserving” is a little weird. If I’d just said “I set things up so I can have breakfast; it doesn’t seem right to not be sure she gets her breakfast” and left it at that …
Anyway, this horse is definitely a learning experience But she has had HUGE improvements over the past few years, especially on the trail, and I do have a lot of fun with her. I’d rather have one like her who politely expresses her opinions pretty much constantly, over one who is quiet and willing … until it’s not. And yeah she is a Morgan, I happen to like them.
[QUOTE=tabula rashah;8266362]
BTW, your mare totally has your number- she’s a Morgan and she’s working it to her advantage. Don’t feel bad- they’re not really the type of horse for everybody.[/QUOTE]
You can insert any breed where you have Morgan and it will apply.
[QUOTE=quietann;8264776]
…quite frankly, though, I could put a hay flake of hay on the barn aisle floor, leave the cross ties off, and she wouldn’t go anywhere, trust me. [/QUOTE]
I do this with the lesson horses in the morning a couple days per week. Feeding begins at 6:30 and there is a 7am lesson, so barn staff and students arrive at the same time. I dislike students grooming/tacking in stalls (although that’s what I do for my personal horse if I’m grabbing her at meal time), so we put them “in the cross ties” with either one or no ties attached and a flake on the floor.
All morning students are adults, and there is an instructor there the whole time. So, while there is risk, it’s worth the reward to me.
That being said, I don’t think horses need their whole breakfast before work. A half a flake (about a pound) is fine in my world. And I expect our horses to behave accordingly.
I tried an experiment last night by feeding my youngster before riding to see if her attitude was better as she was a brat Monday when I didn’t feed before. We’ll she was great, calm, focused, just fine. Made a believer out of me, from now on she gets hay before I ride. Oh, and I only feed 2x a day although my horses are at home, because I and DH work full time.
my horses are at home on sparse pasture. If I plan on riding after work, I chuck them a flake of hay to pick over before I go in to change clothes.
they ‘deserve’ to eat.
I would feed her hay in her stall and tack her up there, ride her, put her back and grain her and let her finish her hay, and not think twice about it.
She might have a meltdown for a few days and you will have to ride through it but she will get over it.
Horses get used to routine and I think she was probably used to having a long slow breakfast, taking a nap, thinking about another mare she was going to bite later, etc and instead you altered her routine by making her work for a living.
[QUOTE=Wonders12;8266570]
I do this with the lesson horses in the morning a couple days per week. Feeding begins at 6:30 and there is a 7am lesson, so barn staff and students arrive at the same time. I dislike students grooming/tacking in stalls (although that’s what I do for my personal horse if I’m grabbing her at meal time), so we put them “in the cross ties” with either one or no ties attached and a flake on the floor.
All morning students are adults, and there is an instructor there the whole time. So, while there is risk, it’s worth the reward to me.
That being said, I don’t think horses need their whole breakfast before work. A half a flake (about a pound) is fine in my world. And I expect our horses to behave accordingly.[/QUOTE]
We bring our horses in and tie them by a rubber bucket with some feed in it.
Then we groom, fly spray and if we are riding them, saddle them.
Horses love to come in to get their feed, even if at times they get ridden, others turned back out.
For that, we tend to use some small senior pellets, that are more than just grain, more of a complete feed type.
Each horse knows where his bucket is and many we can let go by themselves and then walk by and tie them after all, rarely more than six at most, are inside.
We never had a hard to catch horse, maybe because of the routine to come eat a bite, that doesn’t always mean being ridden, if one was to mind that.
I don’t let my horses get into a “routine.” They get fed breakfast somewhere between 7am and 9am, right before it gets dark for dinner, and once somewhere in between those times for lunch. Thus don’t get “cranky” when they aren’t fed at an exact certain time every day. They know the food is coming so they don’t really care. If I ever show up in the morning before they’ve been fed, I do try to let them eat while I’m tacking up, but that’s purely for health reasons (stomach acid, ulcers, blah blah). None of my horses have ever acted any differently whether they have eaten recently or not. I think that’s just basic manners tbh.
If a horse is so hungry that it is distracted by its hunger (and NOT because of a disrupted routine – another issue that imo should not exist) then the horse needs to be fed more often or in larger quantities.
[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8269843]
I would feed her hay in her stall and tack her up there, ride her, put her back and grain her and let her finish her hay, and not think twice about it.
She might have a meltdown for a few days and you will have to ride through it but she will get over it.
Horses get used to routine and I think she was probably used to having a long slow breakfast, taking a nap, thinking about another mare she was going to bite later, etc and instead you altered her routine by making her work for a living.[/QUOTE]
Oh please …
First, there IS no stall for me to tack her up in, especially early in the morning when all the stalled horses have not been turned out. Mine is one of two who live outside with a very nice shelter. The horses all get a small flake of hay when the first barn employee arrives around 8 a.m., the employee starts soaking the breakfasts of the horses who need that, tops off water and checks the horses, and then feeds them their concentrate. Turnout typically starts ~9 ish. So mine can’t have a stall until then.
(I am, however, seriously considering the idea of just throwing a flake of hay on the barn aisle floor and letting her nibble on that while I’m grooming her.)
The mare’s routine is to eat everything as quickly as possible, and only THEN will she nap. (Except of course there are times she does both at the same time … photo taken after she was brought in for the morning on Xmas Day …) If anything, I am interfering with her nap as much as her breakfast. If there is food in front of her, she’s not thinking about anything else.
So I am going to take the major consensus here, that yes it’s good to let them eat before riding them, and just keep arranging things so I’m there to feed her if I want to ride early…
ETA: I can’t imagine that “making” her work when she has not had anything to eat all night and has had a minimal breakfast will teach her anything except “working on an empty stomach is unpleasant.” OF COURSE I want her to do what I ask, and for the most part, she does – but at least part of that is because I take her needs into account.
[QUOTE=Jarrn;8269903]
I don’t let my horses get into a “routine.” They get fed breakfast somewhere between 7am and 9am, right before it gets dark for dinner, and once somewhere in between those times for lunch. Thus don’t get “cranky” when they aren’t fed at an exact certain time every day. They know the food is coming so they don’t really care. If I ever show up in the morning before they’ve been fed, I do try to let them eat while I’m tacking up, but that’s purely for health reasons (stomach acid, ulcers, blah blah). None of my horses have ever acted any differently whether they have eaten recently or not. I think that’s just basic manners tbh.
If a horse is so hungry that it is distracted by its hunger (and NOT because of a disrupted routine – another issue that imo should not exist) then the horse needs to be fed more often or in larger quantities.[/QUOTE]
Food timing isn’t consistent to the minute, but probably within +/- 30 to 45 minutes. I board, so implementing a more variable schedule isn’t really an option.
As I have said over and over and over again – easy keepers can’t have food in front of them all the time, as much as they might try to convince you otherwise. Variable reinforcement works such that if this horse always tells you that she is hungry, and that results in getting fed some of the time, she is going to keep telling you she’s hungry. (Barn workers report that when she is outside, if they are coming toward her paddock, she will start talking at them, even if they are just passing by.) I have no idea why she is this way; she was not starved as a youngster or anything like that. I suppose I should be happy that we haven’t been kicked out of a barn yet because of this “objectionable” behavior???
And the “in larger quantities” is exactly what probably set her off in the first place – she had not had ENOUGH of her regular morning hay ration to eat before I rode her.
So I’m off to the barn early tomorrow, so she can be fed and I can be on her by 8 or 8:30. Really not a terrible thing, right?
