Do I just go Western?

[paulaedwina]

Okay, Katarine. I’ll try to take your advice. Because I am not sure about the aggressive part, but I can be very passive. It’s a behavior I picked up growing up in a very volatile household. When people got mad and loud and ranting and cussy you just learned to be very still so you don’t get your ass kicked and the ranting would be over sooner rather than later. And as an adult I recognized that when things get big and loud I get very still and quiet. Mind you it’s for physical confrontations -I don’t think I do this with verbal confrontations. Meh it’s not straightforward I guess.

It works great in clicker training dogs because I can squash a behavior very easily -because I don’t give anything back. It works awesome in getting animals to trust me too. I see where it doesn’t work is with my horse.

However, you are making alot of incorrect assumptions about my process that I’m blowing off people or wasting time and money, etc. I am not wasting time and money or blowing off what I don’t want to hear, we just do things differently. Again; if this drives you so crazy, just ignore me please.

Can I just tell you that I get leery about opening your posts because so often I feel like you’re just being mean and really critical. You talk to me like you know me or something. Usually your assumptions about me are wrong and rather hurtful.

Paula

[katarine]

Let me ask you this- if you want to do things differently, your way, why do you seek information and validation of any process or procedure or philosophy at all? If you really do just want to do it your way- I don’t comprehend why you care about anyone’s ideas about how to execute ______. What you see as a starting point, and then cobble with another middle point, then polish off with yet another…it confuses and frustrates people who can’t figure out where it is you are trying to go.

As a teacher- it is my job to instill solid basics on the basics. You don’t really have those yet, and I think it’s because you don’t want to stick to anything for long enough to run it to ground and really fundamentally get it. You have to master a complicated baking recipe or a delicate sauce recipe before you can competently tweak it and make it your own. I just saw you spend so much time and energy trying to make dressage be done ‘your way’ before you could make it through a solid Training Level test, does that make any sense?

I wonder what your teachers think. Riding is not a purely academic pursuit- it’s athleticism mixed with muscle memory mixed with Thou Shalt and Thou Shalt NOT themes and mores, and only time and dedication and effort turn that into anything pure and pretty. I guess I just know how much WOW that you are missing out on by tinkering at so many roads to not much new.

[paulaedwina]

I’m a teacher too, Katarine and I know that people learn differently. Some people learn by doing, some people learn by talking, some people learn by seeing, etc. I don’t make a quality statement about a student who has a way different from me. I also know that people process things in different ways. We’ve had that conversation on this forum before -some of us over analyze and sometimes suffer from analysis paralysis -but it’s not because we are wastes of time.

Most of my teachers thought I was lazy and useless because I couldn’t be still, didn’t do my homework, and was too smart for my own good. Fortunately I had a brain enough to get through HS, college, and grad school. Grad school was pretty awesome because since college was so traumatic academically I was not willing to repeat the process in grad school. So I did a great deal of research and discovered that I wasn’t stupid or lazy, I just learned differently. For example;

Instead of suffering through my horrible note taking I quit taking notes and started taping my lectures. I would have total recall from only a few minutes of listening to a lecture tape as opposed to not being able to make heads or tails of my lecture notes.

Instead of being disruptive trying to sit through a lecture I would get up and move around. In exams I would take a quiet room and read my questions out loud to slow myself down and thereby understand the questions. I learned that taking tests was more a matter of having good test taking skills and less about intelligence.

So when I teach (college) I reinforce all of these ideas with my students. You can tape my lectures, you can get up and walk around, you can take the test in the corner, in the testing center, wherever. I teach them how to study, how to trouble-shoot their errors, etc.

So back to horses.

I’m dealing with a thing it seems many of us re-riders are. I’ve developed fears that I didn’t have before. I’ve been riding since I was 7 or 8 years old in Trinidad. I always rode English (I guess it would be hunters?). I rode again when I came to the States. About 3 summers ago I rode with Christine Betz at Dark Horse in Rocky Ridge/Thurmont, MD. I was doing well enough that I was supposed to take Tempi (Janna Dyer’s PSG schoolmaster) to my first level debut that Fall. And then something happened.

I found myself questioning what the heck I was doing. I would be mounting and my brain would ask me if I knew how high up I was and how dangerous this activity was. I rode with this growing in my head -I would equivocate while mounting to the point that I’d come for my lesson (not with Christine) and then not ride at all -much to the annoyance of my then instructor.

Then I had Fella at that barn where the trainer did not let you ride your horse while it was in training. His training was going very badly for him and we were evicted when I suggested that perhaps he needed a different approach.

We landed at Sunset Valley Farm in Union Bridge, Maryland with the most amazing trainer -Jessica Millard. She came highly recommended as she, among other things, rehabbed horses for Gentle Giants Draft Rescue. She was patient and kind and strong when you needed it.

So here I am trying to sort out what is going on. Most of the time, at least recently, I have faith that I am moving forward. Last fall I had a setback of a pretty bad fall while galloping up a hill. This has complicated things. I thought I was over it until Fella crow-hopped at a canter transition and freaked me out. So I’m working on it.

My process is to talk alot about it. I’m done apologizing for my process. It is how I do things. I’m learning to just ride my horse and not be in a race to fix everything. I even have opinions on new things I encounter. It’s my way to inhale a thing, live with it, roll in it. I am trying to find a way out of this stage so I try many things.

Most of the time I am happy to do this and then someone comes along with far more power over me than I am happy with and says what my doubts say in my mind -you’re wasting your time, you’re wasting your trainer’s time, you’re wasting your horse’s time.

I’ll tell you this, Katarine. I will remember you for kicking me when I was down. I’m pretty sure I will succeed and get through this thing that is happening, and when I’m on the other side I will remember you and your contempt for someone whom you do not know but are sure you know. Just like I remember all those teachers who thought they knew me too.

Paula

[katarine]

I am not kicking you at all. Much less while you are up or down. That notion is something you created out of thin air.

That is great that you found a way to study that worked for you …but to my point you didn’t change the material to suit your whims …you changed how you accessed the material. All I was saying in my last post on pg 2 was that your equine education would make more sense to you when you find a path that fits you and you just stay that course long enough to learn from it.so go ride western…or drive…or whatever… find a fit and stay with it a while.

[Bogie]

I don’t know enough about Western dressage to know if it’s a good idea or a good fit for you.

I think that the overwhelming reason to have a horse is that it’s fun. I think that riding, especially with instruction, can be very rewarding because you can see/experience your progress in a tangible way.

I no longer compete but I still school my horses in dressage because riding them correctly helps them use their bodies better and keeps them stronger and sounder.

Whether or not you choose to compete that’s the goal that I think you should work towards (making your horse straighter, stronger, more supple) because it is only by asking your horse to work from behind, to carry himself and to use his back and abdominal muscles that you can accomplish those goals. It’s obvious how much you care for your horse and how much you want to achieve success. Just don’t let yourself get caught up in judging it only in the context of competition.

[paulaedwina]

I was recently reminded of exercises I’ve let fall by the wayside (I was reading the "training the canter thread in the dressage forum) and in so doing have let my basic training slip. As you say -these are good foundation exercises regardless of the ambition or the discipline. So I’m going to dust off the ground poles and cavaletti!

Paula

[Bogie]

Riding/training/learning – there’s so much to know that it’s easy to get overwhelmed and pursue lots of different avenues. Try to find a trainer who can work with you to accomplish your goals by building on success.

It’s not always that simple to find someone who is that structured in their thinking.

But it’s always easier to learn when you have those eyes on the ground that are helping you build the proper foundation.

And don’t think that once you’ve got it you can’t back slide! I’m having my butt kicked on a regular basis now that I’m riding a new horse who is 180 degrees different from my horse. It’s humbling!

[paulaedwina]

It is humbling, but gosh you learn so much. My hope is by having to face these training holes I will become a more versatile rider.

Unfortunately as finances go I am usually on my own of late. I can sometimes afford a few lessons, but not right now. So I’m on my own (still part of that great barn and Jessica is happy to talk to me and give me a bit of her time, but I try not to take advantage). I’m in a good place to work though -I have a plan in mind to help us progress.

1. I’ve been riding bareback a bit lately. For me it’s a great way to re-connect with my horse. And I can always feel bad transitions this way, like hollow-backed, inverted walk/trot transitions. I can also remember softness in my connection this way for some reason. I find I must do this regularly because my endurance saddle (and it may be the design that encourages this) seems to make me lazy with my posture.

2. I’ve resolved to hack out more. This helps my confidence as well as Fella’s and our gentle inclines will help me with smoother canter transitions since he’s pretty forward already in these situations and the inclines help put his balance behind him. So I am less inclined to lean forward to urge him on. I’m trying to ride between my hands more/again.

3. I’m going to return to ground poles, cavaletti, and see if I can encourage him to jump over cross rails (going to need that for competitive trail anyway).

So far that’s what I’ve got.

Paula

[paulaedwina]

Katarine,

Regarding; That is great that you found a way to study that worked for you …but to my point you didn’t change the material to suit your whims …you changed how you accessed the material.

It’s a perspective thing I guess, because I’d say that my experience with education was exactly the opposite of what you’re saying.

I was chafing under the expectations of experts and had to do alot of independent research and be confident enough to go my own way. If I had left it up to the experts I’d still be lazy and useless and probably have no credentials beyond my bachelor’s degree.

So I guess I’ve had good results not allowing myself to be defined by others and their expertise. I suppose by necessity I’ve developed a cynicism about taking what experts say as gospel. My own experiences have resulted in my being less impressed by this. I will always continue to ask why; why can’t I do this without that saddle? Why can’t I be interested in both? Why do I have to focus on one thing? Why do I have to process things your way?

Paula

[katarine]

“You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.”

Einstein.

[Bogie]

I understand about not having the training $$ but there are ways around that. Watch other people’s lessons (it will give you lots of ideas), read books, watch YouTube videos. See my specific comments below.

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;7090375]
It is humbling, but gosh you learn so much. My hope is by having to face these training holes I will become a more versatile rider.

Unfortunately as finances go I am usually on my own of late. I can sometimes afford a few lessons, but not right now. So I’m on my own (still part of that great barn and Jessica is happy to talk to me and give me a bit of her time, but I try not to take advantage). I’m in a good place to work though -I have a plan in mind to help us progress. Find a friend who can watch you or ask them to take video of you riding. Then you can see what you look like. I hate watching video of myself but I always learn something from it. There are also some great teaching videos on YouTube. Jane Savoie’s come to mind. Right now the owner of the horse I’m riding is giving me a lesson on her every week. She’s not a “trainer” but she is very knowledgeable and she’s helping me tremendously.

1. I’ve been riding bareback a bit lately. For me it’s a great way to re-connect with my horse. And I can always feel bad transitions this way, like hollow-backed, inverted walk/trot transitions. I can also remember softness in my connection this way for some reason. I find I must do this regularly because my endurance saddle (and it may be the design that encourages this) seems to make me lazy with my posture. Be very careful with this. Bareback doesn’t necessarily encourage a good position. It’s easy to sit too far back on your butt or hunch your shoulders. I know that I tend to drop one of my shoulders and I ride much better in a saddle that gives me the support that I need to keep my body aligned. I still think you should look for a used Freeform treeless saddle. You’ll find one for under $1k and you can adjust the stirrup placement so that it puts you in a good position.

2. I’ve resolved to hack out more. This helps my confidence as well as Fella’s and our gentle inclines will help me with smoother canter transitions since he’s pretty forward already in these situations and the inclines help put his balance behind him. So I am less inclined to lean forward to urge him on. I’m trying to ride between my hands more/again. Good idea. Working on uneven terrain will help him build muscle and if he’s more forward will make transitions easier. You are right, you need to sit up, not lean forward. Remember that for him to build the right muscle, he needs to be moving correctly – i.e., he needs to his neck to come out of the withers so he’s reaching down, his back needs to come up and he needs to push. To accomplish this you need to have connection. Too often when I see people out hacking, they work only on a loose rein. Nothing wrong with that if you are relaxing, but it’s not working. Head carriage is not connection.

3. I’m going to return to ground poles, cavaletti, and see if I can encourage him to jump over cross rails (going to need that for competitive trail anyway).

That’s also a good idea. Play with the striding by starting with a distance that is comfortable for him and then asking him to lengthen a bit. You can also set the poles up in a fan shape so that you can go through it at different points (that saves you the trouble of getting off an adjusting the poles)

So far that’s what I’ve got.

Paula[/QUOTE]

[paulaedwina]

Thank you so much, Bogie. I really appreciate your taking the time.

Specifically:

1. Video. I actually have an appointment with the barn’s videographer for August 7th for exactly that reason. I have to see what I’m doing -I can visualize very effectively from that.

2. The bareback thing. I just had a PM from another person with my saddle (the EZ fit endurance saddle) who said I was absolutely right about it encouraging laziness in the saddle. After all it’s a saddle built for comfort over long rides and it’s a bit pommel high. I have a back riser shim I’m going to insert next time I go out and see if it discourages the slouching back into the cantle that this saddle encourages. If that fixes it I won’t have to depend on my bareback pad to perk me up.

3. Thank you for the reminder to work on the hack! I will remember to do exactly that.

4. Regarding ground poles. I found this

http://www.nancylaterdressagehorses.com/Strengthen.php

Also I remember from a Paula Kierkegaard clinic many years ago she used the fan shape in the corner and I thought it was very versatile for the reasons you give.

Thanks Bogie!
Paula

[bluemooncowgirl]

Remember this thread you started?

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?399800-quot-Shut-up-and-ride-quot-I-get-it-now!

This is where “Shut up and ride” applies.

I’d highly encourage you to blog about your experiences. You appear to be a decent writer and someone who thrives on feedback that aligns with your personal thoughts. You’d have A LOT more control on a blog than posting here, as far as getting opinions from like-minded folk and getting the feedback you seem to need.

I do feel what you are going through with the discipline quandary. I’ve been there myself. But… are you just gonna pick his hooves or are you going to ride?

[Bogie]

Looking at this photo: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8541/8650882239_725f04da83.jpg

I think the saddle is encouraging you to be “soft” in your body and to be too much on your butt. It’s not terrible but it’s not helping you.

You need to think more about riding knee down and using your thighs actively. It’s good to be relaxed but you also need to be responsible for supporting your own body. If you always ride with your stirrups this long, I’d shorten them for now. Eventually you can ride longer but for now you need more support.

Look at the photos on the article you posted about cavaletti and see how the rider is using her thighs and the position of her lower leg.

There is much you can do by finding good examples of riding and striving toward them but you have to build up from a good foundation.

[paulaedwina]

Yup, the laziness I have begun to understand. I’m going to try the riser tomorrow and see if it makes a difference. And what you said, “you also need to be responsible for supporting your own body” thee speaks to my condition! I joined crossfit to address this, but I hadn’t realized how much my saddle might have been contributing to the problem.

ETA: Had to dash, but Bogie I really appreciate your finding the picture to show me what you were talking about. It made things so clear.

Paula

[paulaedwina]

[QUOTE=bluemooncowgirl;7090657]
Remember this thread you started?

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?399800-quot-Shut-up-and-ride-quot-I-get-it-now!

This is where “Shut up and ride” applies.

…I do feel what you are going through with the discipline quandary. I’ve been there myself. But… are you just gonna pick his hooves or are you going to ride?[/QUOTE]

Indeed I’ve taken that advice to heart and I do ride more than I was, even if it’s a brief tool around the ring. I’ve come to understand that the more time I spend out of the saddle the worse it is for me.

I still ask a bunch of questions though and I’m still getting new, new-to-me, or thanks-for-the-reminder posts that I appreciate very much.

ETA: This quote from one of my responses really describes me.

LOL other people will read this and go, “well duh”. Like you said, for some of us this is not intuitive. Often people get frustrated with me because I ask too many questions. Most of the time I’m not trying to be obnoxious, I’m trying to understand you.

Paula

[mp]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;7090939]
Indeed I’ve taken that advice to heart and I do ride more than I was[/QUOTE]

Great! All you have to do now is … talk less.

Seriously, do whatever you and your horse are best suited for or what makes you both happiest.

Just pick something and work at it, because “going western” shouldn’t be an excuse to ask less of yourself or your horse.

PS – looked at your picture. The biggest issue I see is that your feet are turned out, putting the back of your thigh and calf on the horse and taking your seatbones off.

You need to turn your entire leg forward from the hip socket down. You may need to grab hold of your thigh and physically put the inner part of it on the horse at first to get the feel. But eventually, it will become habit and it will allow you to use your legs and seat more effectively. And you need to do that no matter what discipline you choose.

[paulaedwina]

Talk less :lol: Girl that ain’t gonna happen :lol:

I did not think “Going Western” would be asking less of my horse or me. I’ve since learned that I don’t need to “go” anything. I’m going to put the riser in and take another picture.

Frankly one thing that I see in that picture is that I’ve gotten very weak. I’m sitting on him like a sack. Working on that right now.

Paula

[Pocket_Pony]

Paula, is that saddle treeless? I had a Freeform and LOVED it for long trail rides. But, honestly, for any kind of arena work it really sucked for me. For me, a treeless saddle doesn’t offer the right kind of support for working on equitation. I know lots of people love them, and that’s great, but if you feel you easily get sloppy in your position, I would recommend finding a treed saddle (and I know you’ve had trouble with this) that promotes a balanced seat.

If you’re considering going western, perhaps you’ll have better luck finding a proper western saddle than you did an english saddle.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=mp;7091247]
Great! All you have to do now is … talk less.

Seriously, do whatever you and your horse are best suited for or what makes you both happiest. [/QUOTE]

Now, now. Some of us are quite happy and find that thinking something to death comes naturally. We are happy (and also effective) when being analytical.

To this kind of person (me), it sounds dismissive when someone implies that the talking/thinking person is doing something wrong… something that makes them unhappy.

If it makes you– the audience-- unhappy, ok. But say so, or don’t watch or whatever. But don’t assume that everyone’s mind or taste in a good time matches yours.

Also, I think STFU And Ride will get someone only so far. In just about every sport, sooner or later one needs to learn some technical technique stuff. Again, to a thinker-to-deather, someone saying “just do it!” begs the question as to HOW to just do it. As someone who has learned some body awareness and can put that into words, I think the “just do it” teacher just isn’t very good. If they had the words to convey more, they would.

No judgment. Rather, I’m letting you all know how the other half lives.