Do the hounds kill the fox?

Good post, Anne.

In answer to the original quesion “Do the hounds kill the fox/coyote” the answer is yes, if the pack catches it, they will kill it. But as in so many things, the little word “if” covers a whole lot of territory.

In the U.S., if the quarry goes to ground, it is not dug out, terriers are not sent after it, it is given “best” and hunters hope to encounter it another day. In the U.K. (I have not hunted there, so this is second hand), the landowner expects the hunt to perform pest control service and kill the fox. So earths are stopped (to keep the fox from going to ground) and terriermen are used to dig out the quarry and dispatch it if it does go to ground somewhere.

In the U.S., the hunt usually ends when the hounds lose the scent, or the quarry goes to ground, or runs out of country. When the quarry runs past a fence line or across the road where we no longer have permission to hunt, hounds are stopped and the huntsman takes them away to look for another line somewhere.

I have twice in the more than fifteen years I’ve been hunting seen an individual hound catch up with the quarry. Once a red fox, once a gray. On the first occasion, it was a young hound and a young fox, and they literally played together like two pups meeting in the park. They frisked and rolled and tail-wagged and bowed and tumbled together until some older hounds headed over towards them and the fox exited stage left and went quickly to ground, completely unharmed. The second time, it was a gray fox and a seasoned hound who had stayed the line when the rest of the pack missed a turn. So Famous was out in front by a good lead, and the gray fox had stopped on the trail to watch the festivities. Famous caught up to the gray, the stood there and looked at each other, Famous took a step forward, they sniffed noses, and they just looked at each other until the pack found the line and caught up…about 90 seconds later. And then the fox thought maybe this was a fine time to boogie and off he ran, and Famous and his packmates chased him and the fox darted into a thick cover, hounds lost, and the fieldmaster saw a gray up in a nearby tree. So IME the quarry needs to be caught by the pack to be killed, and, frankly, that is quite rare. I personally have only seen hounds catch up to quarry two other times in all the years I’ve hunted with various packs: both times the pack killed the coyote, one was very mangy and sick, the other was healthy and either very stupid or very unlucky.

Here is a chart on animal speed. http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0004737.html Note that the coyote is faster even then the grayhound and whippet and certainly faster than foxhounds. Plus, the coyote has tremendous stamina and can maintain speed for a long time, as opposed to a sprinting animal like a quarter horse who has a quick afterburner but not a long-distance burn.

Interestingly, google just popped up this webpage for me http://www.imbmonsterbucks.com/predator.htm, showing what’s done by people who buy furbearers licenses and go out yearround to kill coyotes with rifles. They use prey calls to coax the coyotes into range and shoot them. They quote stats that the calls bring in a coyote 1/10th or 1/3rd of the time, depending on where they are hunting. And then the shooter fires. This is a very different kind of hunting than mounted foxhunting, to say the least. We don’t lure them in, we go out into their environment and using only the noses of hounds we try to find where they have been and hope to catch up and get a view. The coyote are out there in number and being hunted year round by rifle hunters and also being trapped—neither method insures the all-or-nothing outcome that a pack does. The shooter can wound and leave the animal to slow death. The trapper can maim and leads to a very slow death. The hounds either kill very quickly or (much, much, much more commonly) the quarry gets away completely untouched.

DELIGHTFUL post, Badger. How lucky you are to have witnessed those two encounters, especially the one of the youngsters. That had to have been priceless.

Wow, some really great posts here - Delphi, I loved the way that you expalined the UK situation so succinctly :yes:

Well, sort of, rileyt… What is now illegal is to purposefully allow hounds to hunt and kill a fox. Legally, you can use 2 hounds to flush the fox to a gun. As Delphi said, the fox ends up no less dead and I fail to see how this method causes the animal less stress (which is what the Burns report used as the basis of comparison - the relative stress levels suffered by the animal leading up to the kill. The report did concede that fox populations needed to be controlled, which upset a lot of the AR crowd).

What most people here (both pro-hunt and many regular ‘no strong feelings either way’) object to is the ridiculous nature of the law itself. So it is not illegal to ride out with hounds as long as they are following a pre-laid fake scent trail, but then neither is it technically ‘illegal’ for hounds to kill a fox ‘accidentally.’ The law means that anyone bringing a case to court would have to prove that the huntsman actively encouraged hounds to deviate from the pre-laid trail or that he did not actively attempt to call hounds off a scent if he realised that they were hunting live quarry. The law as it stands is impossible to regulate properly, and has unfortunately lead to instances where hunt sabs (or ‘monitors’ as they now like to be known) desperate to try and get someone prosecuted will try to destroy the artificial trail in an attempt to get hounds hunting live quarry - animal lovers concened with saving Charlie’s life? I think not.

It sounds like, Anne, that for some very legitimate reasons, the hunting “culture” in the U.K. was more closely tied to the “kill”, whereas in the U.S., it is more tied to the chase. Do you think that’s a fair statement?

Again, kind of. When I first started hunting (aged 14) it was explained to me thus:

It is the huntsman’s job to locate and dispatch the quarry, and the hunt servants job to assist him in doing this. This is why we have been invited to ride on this land.

As a member of the field, it is your job not to interfere in the hunting itself. Enjoy the ride and the countryside, be respectful, and follow instructions at all times. If you wish to learn more about the business of hunting, ask questions of those who are knowledgeable.

I have never actually witnessed a kill, either with my local harrier pack or with the foxhound pack that I have been lucky enough to ride with. I’ve always been aware that they happen, and I’m not uncomfortable with it. What I have seen an awful lot of (with the harrier pack) is hares sitting down for a breather mid chase (much easier to see this with hares as they tend to run in circles), wait for hounds to catch up, then set off again leaving hounds for dust! :lol: I also go shooting a lot in the winter, and regularly have to dispatch birds wounded by the guns. I know which method of hunting I think is better in terms of animal welfare.

As Anne said, the ban here is nothing to do with animal welfare - not one single fox or hare is better off as a result. Before Tony Blair was elected in 1997, he basically promised the hardened class warriors of his party that if they helped him to get elected he would push this law through. Blair himself never actually turned up to ANY of the parliamentary debates or votes on the matter (because, y’know, he’s such a ‘man of the people’ and doesn’t want to upset anyone), and don’t forget that the law was pushed through by using the Parliament Act - an Act written into the books during WWII in order to get laws passed quickly in the interests of the nation. The passing of the Hunting Act was, I believe, the first time that the Parliament Act has been invoked since the war. Somehow I can’t see that that’s what Churchill’s government intended it for.

Deer hunters around here kill more coyote than the hounds EVER could! The key word being “kill” …several are just mortally wounded (by a bad shot) and either suffer and die or live to tell about it after MUCH suffering…I have seen three legged coyotes on my farm as well as in hunt country. I have hunted for a long time and the only two kills I know of were a mangey coyote and an ancient fox (in like 20 years)…we have had “at bays” and many “gone to grounds”…hounds are rewarded with “cookies”…We like the “varmits” to live to chase another day!

Flame suit on…lol :slight_smile:

I’ve been following this thread and am trying to get into the heads on the Fox hunter crowd. I suppose my love of horses is so, because it extends to all living creatures, whether it be a snake, bird, raccoon etc.

I can’t for the life of me figure out how you have so much respect for your horses and so little regard for other creatures. (Foxes and Coyotes) Some seem to imply that the foxes get a kick out of being chased. Well, my former B.O. had a nasty G.S. who constantly harassed our family of barn foxes. Sorry, these foxes did NOT look like they were enjoying it. They finally upped and moved their den.
If I put you in an open field with a Lion or Grizzly hot on your tail, would you get a kick out of it? I don’t think so. You’d probably be scared sheetless.

As far as the U.K…I rather be shot and have it over quickly than be chased for hours to the point of terrified exhaustion only to be dug out of my den and shredded.

Livestock being killed by nuisance animals? Your apparently not locking them up properly. I had chickens for many years and didn’t lose one to predators. :yes:

Shooting does not always provide a quick kill. Hunters miss. Wandering around with your leg shot off isn’t pleasant. I’d say the hounds perform the actual kill faster.

But I guess you’re more concerned about the fear a fox has during the chase. I’d be interested to hear the comments. I certainly think that, given a choice, an animal would rather be in pain than in fear. Although, given the stories I’ve heard, many times the fox doesnt seem too worried.

YOU personally have never lost livestock to nuisance animals. I had chickens as a kid, too…and they were never harmed. BUT…it does happen, mostly because HUMANS are invading THEIR territory with construction. Foxes and coyotes are excellent climbers, so unless you have unlimited funds to put up woven wire along with your board fence, AND electrify a line on top, one of those critters can scale it, no problem. And a coyote CAN take down a baby sheep or goat. They may even be able to get a small calf or pony foal…you never know.
In my area, I have seen 3 dead foxes already ON THE ROADS. I saw numerous foxes during the summer. I just moved back into my area after being away for 8 years…and I can’t BELIEVE the increase in these animals. I had NEVER seen a coyote in my county before last winter. Now I see them all the time, along with foxes.
I don’t think ANYONE implied that the fox “likes” to be chased, we were just trying to explain that most of the time, the animal DOES NOT appear stressed. AT ALL. Cats don’t like to be chased by dogs, but you don’t see people trying to ban all cat chasing dogs, do you?
Like everyone has said…99% of the time the fox is sick, old, or injured. If left alone, it would slowly starve to death or be in alot of pain or both. Or, if sick, that animal may infect other animals, possibly with rabies. Death by hounds is at the very least, quick.
If we didn’t respect the fox and his incredible skill, savvy, and wit…and not to mention his cunning and speed…we could not call ourselves true foxhunters. You either embrace it or you don’t…but I would say that unless you have researched or actually participated, there is not a leg to stand on while criticizing.

Side note…this is one of the best threads I’ve read…very imformative, especially on foxhunting in the UK! :slight_smile:

Can someone pass the popcorn? (burp.) (elbows Mulie.)

I’m with you HR! What kind of popcorn you want???

You weren’t listening: 50% of shot foxes don’t die. They are wounded and crawl off to suffer and die hours, days, weeks later. If hounds catch you, they kill in seconds, not hours, days, weeks. Mos’ def, mounted foxhunters love the fox more. They don’t tolerate that suffering. They don’t gas and poison and shoot.

A “nasty GS” would not be allowed by ANY foxhunter to repeatedly harass a den of foxes. You and your barn owner are more cruel to allow that.

While you love all the little birdies so, many would call you cruel for keeping your chickens locked up. Isn’t that cruel to them? And as someone said, YOU haven’t had foxes or coyotes prey on your livestock. MANY have.

huntertwo

Huntertwo, you may want to consider changing your user name :slight_smile:

Just a few points in between mouthfuls of popcorn:

  1. The MFHA discourages blooding.
  2. Red foxes aren’t even indigenous to the U.S. (northern Canada, yes) but actually were imported to hunt. Not that it would make any difference to
  3. people who hate killing any animals are, as noted previously, mostly just thinking about themselves and their own tender sensibilities because (and where is JS? Can I admire her restraint in this thread?)
  4. “nature is red, tooth and nail.” Hey, even a virus is alive and I don’t hear PETA ranting about saving viruses.

Speaking of mighty hunters, we’ve had a critter down at the barn eating the barn cat’s food. Last night I had finished feeding and was on my way to the truck when I noticed my terrier mix carrying something large and fluffy in her mouth. It wasn’t moving at all. It was a possum. I’m hoping it was dead and that the cat’s food will be safe from now on.

I was very happy that my dog had dispatched some more barn vermin, because I wouldn’t be able to do it myself. I can rely on her instincts to do what I can’t.

All of these PETA types really get me. I wonder what their reaction is the minute a snake or rabid bat ventures into their homes. I am sure they are shreiking and wanting to be rid of it just like most people.

I think foxes are beautiful but I also think that there is a purpose for hunting. I think that the US foxhunting folks have a good balance of how they practice the sport here.

Huntin

The desire to hunt and pursue for sport or food can not really be explained to someone who does not understand or have it. It is a part of the makeup of the human being but not all of us have the desire to do this or the time to act on it. We just want to do it and are fortunate enough to have the time and money to do it and live in a country where we have the right to do it ( part and parcel of the term " Life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness" IMO ).

As a comparison, a man who is gay can not really explain adequately to my understanding why he wants to be with men rather than women. I just don’t get it. But, I do realize that something inside him drives him to seek that out as a source of pleasure.

Whether either hunting or homosexuality is wrong, I leave up the individual to make up their mind ( thats called freedom of thought - recent trends in our society seem to be directed at controlling our thoughts whether through the ’ political correctness ’ movements or the ’ hate speech ’ prohibitions ) but I sure resent people telling me that somehow after 10,000 + years of man hunting now all of a sudden it is somehow wrong, but other things that have been taboo for thousands of years are now somehow OK because its someone’s ‘choice’.

Hunting is MY choice and if you try to stop hunters or tell me I am wrong to do it you are in for a fight.

Just my 2 cents and I am not trying to step on anyones toes unless they are anti hunting, and in that case its not your toes that should be stepped on :slight_smile: .

You rock, F4Me. Very eloquent answer.
By the way, the non-hunter types would have been naturally selected right out of the gene pool eons ago were it not for modern society.
Any bets on how long it would take Mother Earth to ‘correct’ if the power grid goes down and never comes back on?? (I think about this a lot - long trail rides, longer winter evenings without much to do …)
(munch munch munch. Could someone pass me a diet coke? I’m hoping this discussion will go on and on – equal parts fun to see terrific, intelligent discussion - a la F4Me et al - and screaming ninnies.)

I have to say I skipped through fairly quickly. First of a my mom hunted 3-5 days a week for almost 20 years and was only on 2 kills (and one was a planted fox out of its area). And a kill is QUICK, like seconds. A pack kills immediately, swiftly, and leaves it alone. I hunted, but not so often, and was only on one.

Fox/coyotes are smart, that are long ago gone to ground laughing at the slow hounds. And drag hunting is, well, a drag. Too quick runs makes for whacked horses, nothing the same.

Yes - and I have the mask on my tack room wall!

Excellent FH4Me!! Thanks for being so eloquent (sp?)…Super post…

Hunting with hounds is such a singularly unique experience that until you have participated in it, you cannot fully understand many of the arguements put forth by foxhunters. It is something almost intangible and ineffable; and we can try and explain it until we are blue in the face. :sadsmile:

If there’s one thing I have learned throughout the years of supercilious smiles, and sarcastic remarks; its that there is no quicker way to make yourself look ignorant, than to argue & preach upon a topic of which you have no real life experience.

My remarks are not an attack directed towards anyone in particular, but sometimes it seems as if folks are more interested in nitpicking the oppositions arguement than listening with an open mind.

Edited to say: This is not really a comment about this thread or those participating, but rather a more general statement about how these arguements tend to work, and my frustrations with them.