[QUOTE=Hunter’s Rest;2037019]
By the way, the non-hunter types would have been naturally selected right out of the gene pool eons ago were it not for modern society. [/QUOTE]
No, not necessarily. Not if they were really skilled at growing things, or taking care of the young, or making weapons, etc. and being genetically disposed to being a “non-hunter” meant that they were able to be available to do those other things that were also beneficial to the group. 
That is assuming agriculture had been discovered (a fairly recent phenomenon) and that steel had been invented (ditto.) I’m talking hunter gatherer. Gatherer means gathering edible fungi, acorns, edible plants. Not going into a rice paddy and netting up your supper. Natural selection has not ‘worked’ for thousands of years due to captive agriculture. I was speaking of ‘before.’
Plus, in portions of the world, there was neither anything to ‘gather’ nor the possibility of agriculture. Think Inuit, native Scandanavians. Talk about hunter-hunters. Not gatherers at all.
Well no, I was talking “before” too (though not exclusively, obviously). Don’t need steel to make tools, as a species we didn’t start out in Scandinavia, it’s always been good to have one inclined to help rear the young etc.
I think modernity has certainly made it possible for the true non-hunter/anti-hunter to thrive, but I stand by what I said about some folks being predisposed to being way more into actively hunting than others, and having that been just a dandy plan in our evolutionary history.
I went hunting in Kansas, they actually chase Coyotes. Coyotes are relaly really fast, when we went it was the first time they actually got a view in months. The hilltoppers said the coyotes actually stopped and took a break, becasue he was so far ahead.
There are three hunts in Kansas and all three chase coyote and fox. Views of coyote are fairly frequent. Sometimes it’s the staff viewing and not the field, though. One interesting thing about hunting is that often different riders have very different experiences depending on where they are riding (whipping in, riding with the hilltoppers, riding at the front or back of the field) and their experience at observing and interpreting the hunt. One of the great things about it is that a foxhunter is always learning.
covertside
did anyone see the article written by marc twain? It was a great tale of a hound trying to follow a coyote-in his usual style of wit. It really says it all
Well I was told they always hunt coyotes, and everyone was quite excited to have a view of the coyote. It was really fun.
I don’t think these animals are stupid, and if they really felt threatened by the hunt they know the places that they aren’t followed by the hounds, they’d probably just go and live there.
Coyotes toy with the pack and its followers. They have another gear that they use when they want to finish the hunt–they will put on the jets and be gone.
Was wondering if there had been any research on the “sense of play” in adult wild canines. Domestic dogs certainly have retained it from puppyhood. If wild canines still enjoy playing, it might explain a lot of fox/coyote behavior that hunters observe. Badger’s post made me ask the question
Think about the gray fox, for example, who can climb trees to escape. Why would a chased one not end the chase ASAP by going up trees instead of leading hounds on a merry run? Seems to me a confident, healthy young wild canine MIGHT be playing with the hounds.
I know I’m late on this, but … there are those who hunt to ride and then there are the true fox hunters, who ride to hunt! I would be the second, used to be the first, but now, I prefer to RIDE TO HUNT!!
Daytime: Sounds like you had a great time. I hope you’ll be out in the huntfield again soon.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;2038762]
Was wondering if there had been any research on the “sense of play” in adult wild canines. Domestic dogs certainly have retained it from puppyhood. If wild canines still enjoy playing, it might explain a lot of fox/coyote behavior that hunters observe. Badger’s post made me ask the question[/QUOTE]
I touched a bit on the sense of play thing in a reply on the thread I linked to on page one. I’m going to cut and paste that here:
“I see how much horses and hounds and people love hunting. And I know children and dogs and even horses love to play games of chase. I think nature may have wired us to enjoy hunting and similated hunting activities. And though I don’t know what is in the mind of coyotes or foxes, if nature has wired man and dog to enjoy hunting (because those that enjoyed hunting would be good at it and would survive by not starving) and to enjoy being chased (because those that enjoyed games of tag and chase would be fit and skilled and able to evade predators and therefore survive) then I believe that nature would have wired coyotes with the same positive incentive for the same reasons. Every foxhunter I know has anecdotes of foxes and coyotes that appeared to “toy with” the pack and appeared to “enjoy” the sport. Now, the stakes are certainly much higher for quarry in this sport, but I truly believe that the experience of hunting and being hunted are part of nature’s plan. And that is part of my thought process and part of why I hunt, I love nature and the animals and the chase, and I accept that sometimes the quarry meets its fate. I root for the coyote, I admire it’s skills and cunning and stamina, and I am happy that he almost always gets away.”
Hunter’s Rest replied in that thread: “‘hard wired for hunting’ humans are studied in detail in lovely prose and well-researched in Rupert Issaccson’s (?) book ‘The Wild Host’ and its at Horse Country. Anyone else fascinated by this topic and thread (how could you not be?, friend or foe …) should absolutely look at it.”
That gray fox was amazing. I was whipping in and was dispatched down a trail through the covert as the front whip on the right side, to get ahead to the end of the trail and wait to see if anything popped out of the north end of the covert. When I got there, I waited standing still for 5-10 minutes, then the fox moved out of a small cluster of evergreens ahead of me…and sat down about 25-30 feet in front of me and looked at me. He stared at me, my horse and I stared at him. The fox lay down, sprawling like a dog, and watched us. As a whip, I could leave to find the huntsman, risking that the fox would get up and run in the direction we can’t hunt (in which case we would not want to put the hounds on the line) or halloa to relay the information to my huntsman. The danger of halloaing is scaring the quarry and changing his course. This parked fox was a new situation for me, and after some thought, I decided to halloa.
I have a good, loud halloa. My gray friend sat up when I halloaed…and cocked his head. And sat there and looked at me. After several minutes, he got up, stretched, and sat down to look at me again. As there was no sign of our huntsmank, I halloed again. About five minutes after that, I head him coming up the trail behind me. When he got to the end of the trail, I asked him if he’d heard my halloa? He said no. I said I had a fox. He said where. I pointed. He said when? I said…right now, he’s right there on the other side of the tree. The huntsman started to move forward and the fox got up and quietly disappeared back into his cluster of evergreens. The huntsman brought the hounds to the line and they were off on the chase I described above.
This was probably eight or ten years ago. I can still remember that day and that fox very clearly, it was a wonderful experience. He never acted scared—he was curious about me, and he was curious about the hound Famous that he sniffed noses with. What a cool, cool creature!
Badger,
what a cool, awesome story…wish I could’ve been you that day:yes:
I didn’t read all the replies so I know this has been said, but I will say it again. I rode with Orange County and Middleburg Hunts in the 80s, and know that none of the member ever wanted to see a ‘kill’. They get fond of their foxes, and if a fox gives you a good run, who on earth would want to kill one that was such a great sport? It was exciting even to VIEW the fox, much less get close enough to think about catching it. That was never considered.
I think it was different in ‘olden times’ and even in the UK presently, that fox were overrunning the place, killing stock, and really were considered vermin. Not ever so here. The kill tradition amy have come over initially from there, but I think it probably stopped quickly, as there aren’t nearly so many foxes here.
Never hunted coyote. That sounds fun! Though as a huntsman I 'd be worried it’d turn on the hounds! :eek:
fox stories?
munch, munch, munch…it’s the holidays so I’m eating fruitcake while reading this one…!!! :winkgrin: pass the eggnog HR!
Hmmmm…I have several cool fox stories about their escapist & entertaining behaviors during a chase. We must all agree at least that they aren’t always “stressed” when on the run.
Fox goes in abandoned old farm house (basement+2 floors above) and hounds follow. Over next 10 mins we sit outside and see fox & hounds alternately sticking their heads out looking out the windows for each other. Hounds speaking & quite the ruckus! Fox escapes out the basement window and sits down and watches from a nearby rise while the hounds go over & over the many lines he left in there. Scratches himself behind the ear and walks away after catching his breath…WHAT was he thinking??? :lol:
Used to trailride with a bunch of farm dogs who’d chase anything that moved…had a local fox follow us on many a ride thru his territory with those dogs…oh maybe a 50 yds behind and if I stopped to look at him = he’d stop. Dumb dogs never saw him or chased him…What was HE thinking!?
Hilltopping alone one day and had a fox den right in front of me on the hillside. Hounds off in the distance speaking on his line. I tried to stay perfectly still. Fox comes in & outa the hole a coupla times to sit & watch but was a bit bothered by my presence. (I DO have a scarey looking horse…it wasn’t me actually!) Ultimately he waited till the strike hounds broke the cover and down he dived. Huntsman blew gone to ground and off we went. Me in the back per usual…I looked over my shoulder and the fox came out and sat next to the whole and watched the parade leave the vicinity! Kinda like…“see ya’ll next time!!”
Local coyotes have followed me & my dog many, many times out trailriding…what are THEY thinking??? 
First let me say that I am neither a fox-hunter, nor an animal rights activist. I eat meat and wear leather, and have slaughtered rabbits that I raised from birth. I thoroughly enjoy my position at the top of the food chain.
BUT … to say the fox is killed ‘instantaneously’ is complete and utter BS.
It is run down and torn to pieces. To think that the ‘wiley ol fox’ is not in terror as it is pursued by a pack of hounds is naive to say the least.
If you do not care that an animal is being terrified and ripped apart for your enjoyment, that is fine. Just ADMIT that: “I don’t care about the fox. It’s just an animal. I enjoy hunting and my enjoyment is more important than the fox”.
But to try to justify this be denying the pain and terror of the fox is just rationalization.
I think you’ll find that the number of fox killed in hunting in North America is actually quite small.
But I do agree with you on the other point though. I don’t understand why people feel the need to somehow come up with warm fuzzy cock and bull stories about the fox enjoying the hunt. I’m sure it’s nothing less than traumatic and a terrifying experience and I don’t understand why people can’t be honest, unless they feel a certain amount of guilt or regret. I have no problem believing that and I have hunted fox and coursed hares with greyhounds, and would continue to do so because there’s an inherent primeaval beauty in it that’s hard to verbalise.
It reminds me of people in horseracing responding to catastophic breakdowns by saying “but those horses love to run, they would have wanted to die like that”. Actually no, I’m sure those horses would have prefered to be out in a field up to their hocks in clover.
Steeplechasing takes a toll on horses, yet it’s my favourite sport in the world. I can accept that that is an unfortunate part of the game, but I still love the racing game though. I can respect that others don’t feel that way.
AP
Until you are actually on a hunt, and actually see (with your own eyes) a kill, please don’t tell us how it is. A week ago, with Old Dominion, the hounds found quickly, at our Texas Farm fixture. Mr. Fox headed north a few hundred yards til he made Thumb Run - where he came into view of the back of the field, which I was personally with. We watched him turn at hte creek and head back south-southeast. Ran right into the pack. The lead hound dispatched him with a single shake. Took less than 1/4 of a second. The hounds then went on elsewhere, casting themselves. A whip was within 7 seconds of the kill; she rode over, stood over-near the fox so the huntsman could see where to come and, eventually, the huntsman and the ‘head of hte line’ got circled back to where the ‘back of hte line’ and the hounds were already.
Please, don’t comment upon which you know not.
Hounds are neither cats nor horses. They do not toy with their prey like a cat, nor do they simply tear into their food like a horse. The lead hound kills and moves on.
PS The fox killed last week was not ‘run down’. That is rare. He made a mistake. One time (in 35 years of active hunting) I’ve seen prey run down, and this was actually a coyote, with the Hillsboro in Tennessee. Hounds pursued for over an hour and indeed they ran him down.
Coyotes can and do turn on your lead hounds. Often a very real fear.
Yep. I hate foxes. Love to see 'em all scared out of their wits, then ripped to shreds.
That must be why I feed chicken scraps filled with ivermec to counteract the mange they get sometimes. Hate 'em. Pesky vermin.
Right.
Hunters are your champion conservationists. You don’t believe it, ask an Englishman.
PPS Pass the 'nog, WateryGlen. This story seems to be taking a hard turn. (munch munch munch. Hard to talk so much with my mouth full. munch munch munch.)
test
[BUT … to say the fox is killed ‘instantaneously’ is complete and utter BS.
It is run down and torn to pieces. To think that the ‘wiley ol fox’ is not in terror as it is pursued by a pack of hounds is naive to say the least.
If you do not care that an animal is being terrified and ripped apart for your enjoyment, that is fine. Just ADMIT that: "I don’t care about the fox. It’s just an animal. I enjoy hunting and my enjoyment is more important than the fox But to try to justify this be denying the pain and terror of the fox is just rationalization.[/QUOTE]
First let me say that I am neither a fox-hunter, nor an animal rights activist. I eat meat and wear leather, and have slaughtered rabbits that I raised from birth. I thoroughly enjoy my position at the top of the food chain.
BUT … to say the fox is killed ‘instantaneously’ is complete and utter BS.
It is run down and torn to pieces. To think that the ‘wiley ol fox’ is not in terror as it is pursued by a pack of hounds is naive to say the least.
If you do not care that an animal is being terrified and ripped apart for your enjoyment, that is fine. Just ADMIT that: “I don’t care about the fox. It’s just an animal. I enjoy hunting and my enjoyment is more important than the fox”.
But to try to justify this be denying the pain and terror of the fox is just rationalization.
Dec. 6, 2006 12:30 PM
test
ok
[QUOTE=A. P.;2044035]
First let me say that I am neither a fox-hunter, nor an animal rights activist. I eat meat and wear leather, and have slaughtered rabbits that I raised from birth. I thoroughly enjoy my position at the top of the food chain.
BUT … to say the fox is killed ‘instantaneously’ is complete and utter BS.
It is run down and torn to pieces. To think that the ‘wiley ol fox’ is not in terror as it is pursued by a pack of hounds is naive to say the least.
If you do not care that an animal is being terrified and ripped apart for your enjoyment, that is fine. Just ADMIT that: “I don’t care about the fox. It’s just an animal. I enjoy hunting and my enjoyment is more important than the fox”.
But to try to justify this be denying the pain and terror of the fox is just rationalization.[/QUOTE]
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