[QUOTE=A. P.;2044035]
BUT … to say the fox is killed ‘instantaneously’ is complete and utter BS. It is run down and torn to pieces. To think that the ‘wiley ol fox’ is not in terror as it is pursued by a pack of hounds is naive to say the least.
If you do not care that an animal is being terrified and ripped apart for your enjoyment, that is fine. Just ADMIT that: “I don’t care about the fox. It’s just an animal. I enjoy hunting and my enjoyment is more important than the fox”.
But to try to justify this be denying the pain and terror of the fox is just rationalization.[/QUOTE]
Three weeks ago. Big red pops out of a covert and dashes midway up a hill. Stops in mid-flight, TURNS AROUND, looks at the hounds at the bottom of the hill screaming on his scent, stays in place, LOOKS AT THE FIELD OF RIDERS across the hill from him, appears that he is trying to make up his mind what direction to take off…FINALLY decides where to run and off he dashes (chased the rascal a good distance but lost him).
I REGULARLY see such instances. And I simply cannot…RATIONALIZE that fox as having been overly worried.
And I resent the FACTS of what I saw, AND regularly see, as being labeled “naive”.
Research has shown that all dogs-small, big, tiny, hound, Yorkie, all of them–instinctively have what is called “the killing bite”. They don’t have to see it or practice it or learn it. It’s actually hard wired in canis familiaris. They are born knowing how to kill smaller animals. Other behaviors have to be learned from their mothers or other dogs, but the killing bite does not.
I’ve seen it several times. The prey is grabbed by the back of the neck, and one quick and hard shake breaks the neck. Death is instantaneous. Only after death would the animal be torn to shreds, but most domestic dogs will simply leave it to ripen and work on it later.
You’re British, though. In your experience and the experience of English foxes, hunting usually results in death. Here, hunting usually doesn’t result in the death of the quarry from the chase. Perhaps wild canines have learned that they have less to fear from their domesticated cousins, have more confidence in their survival, and get pleasure from outwitting the hounds.
Similar to other experiences posted here, in my 15 years of foxhunting (in the US) I have witnessed one kill - the fox was covered in mange, was not torn to shreds (one quick snap of the neck by the lead hound) and was not chased for miles (the fox was ill, offered little chase, and was quickly killed). I am not sure what is the data for stating that the fox is “torn to shreds” (while still alive).
And as for chasing a fox for miles in terror - foxes are exquistly familar with their home territory and know where there dens are (in the US foxes are not dug out) and also have an uncanny ability to know where the hunt territory ends - in which case the hounds are called off and the chase ends.
In any case, when I started foxhunting (as an adult) I was immediately struck by how few times (i.e. rarely) that the fox is caught. I took this to mean and still take it to mean how inept us humans and hounds are relative to the fox in this kind of forum. Just think about it - one fox versus dozens of hounds, horses and humans, and the fox is not caught the vast, vast majority of times. Even though the huntsman and hounds may be superb, the fox is so much more skilled that we are. In this forum, we can hardly be considered much of a significant adversary to the fox.
This experience also has explained to me why there are so many expressions in the language like “clever as a fox”, “quick as a fox”, etc. These expressions, like many expressions, are based in reality. And it was only through the experience of foxhunting and appreciating the skill of a fox that I truly learned the meaning of these expressions. Again, the fox “is” really clever and quick, and even though I have great respect for the hounds, the fox makes many hounds, even some of the best, look like not much of an adversary.
Bottom line, a fox makes us humans and even the incredible hounds look like a bunch of hacks.
Well, I’m mighty interested in the playchase possibility that Badger and others have raised, but I’m leery to fully commit to that because it’s also possible that what is being seen and interpreted as the fox “waiting” for the hounds to catch up, or “intentionally staying one step ahead” is actually the fox trying to conserve its energy resources as much as possible.
Part of what makes domestic dogs domestic is their retention of certain juvenile characteristics, of which play is one. Wolves and coyotes play, yes, but not as readily or extensively as their domestic cousins.
Dunno!
Still reading/listening.
And thanks to all for making it this far without a trainwreck. :yes:
Most interesting thread. My observation is that, unlike many other forms of hunting, foxhunters do not employ stealth. Quite the opposite: we are extremely noisy, make no effort to conceal our scent, and surely transmit enormous vibrations through the earth via many scores of hooves and paws. Kind of hard to imagine any healthy fox not being able to elude us with that kind of advance warning. Which I guess is why it is such a thrill to view a fox doing what he does so very well…using all his considerable faculties and keen senses to master his environment and overcome challenges!
For all those who are opposed to foxhunting and speaking of the creulty…I sure hope you are also against all deer and other animal hunting via firearm or other weapon.
I can say that I have heard many a story from hunter friends of mine that have talked about how they shot a deer/rabbit/fox/etc that they had to go look for because it didn’t die at that moment.
I have been present for one kill. A “chopped” fox that was very old and injured. The fox was dispatched and accounted for immediately, no running off to find him a mile away dead. Dead within an split second! Have heard many stories of other kills that have happened while friends have been out foxhunting, to about the same tune.
I’ve said my peace- now who wants christmas cookies…and i’ll take some of that eggnog that was being passed around…
[QUOTE=vineyridge;2044499]
Research has shown that all dogs-small, big, tiny, hound, Yorkie, all of them–instinctively have what is called “the killing bite”.[/QUOTE]
Yep.:yes: I get to see this proved several times a week in fall and winter, when my Lhasa Apso catches the field mice that sneak into the house to escape the cold. He snares 'em in his fearsome jaws, slings his massive head to the side once, :winkgrin: and snap - ex-mousie. After that, he’s done. He leaves the corpses for lesser mammals - i.e. me and the cats - to dispose of. No tearing to pieces. I’m sure he’d behave the same in a pack, although a pack of Lhasa is a fearsome notion indeed.:eek: :lol:
Now, who’s read Temple Grandin’s “Animals in Translation”? I know there was some explanation in there posited for this “teasing” behavior between squirrels and hounds but I can’t remember what her theory was.
Sorry for my long absence, but thank you to everyone for this very informative (and level headed) discussion. Especially to Anne FS.
One note of reply to A.P. - with my limited experience, I do worry (as you do) that Mr. Reynard really does not enjoy the chase. I do worry, that his little heart starts beating mighty quickly when the hounds are in full cry. I say this despite the numerous accounts by people here, who truthfully say they have seen the fox looking quite unperturbed by the whole experience.
But to say that because hunters turn a blind eye to this fear, or disagree with it, that they are just a bunch of fox haters, could not be more incorrect.
I know it must sound insincere to people who don’t understand it, but my first riding teacher was a fox hunter. In fact, she was a whip for a very old and notable hunt. She is gone know, but trust me when I tell you, if a sick or injured fox had ever turned up on her property, she’d would’ve gone to great lengths to see to its health.
Whenever hunters get together and trade stories, the best ones, told with the most gusto and the biggest smiles, are always about the fox who got away. Stories about the rare times when a fox is killed, are told in hushed and respectful tones, as if discussing the passing of a dear friend.
As hunters go, fox hunters are somewhat unique. You have never seen so many people get so much enjoyment over their continued ineptitude as hunters.
As hunters go, fox hunters are somewhat unique. You have never seen so many people get so much enjoyment over their continued ineptitude as hunters.[/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Quite possibly the best (and funniest) statement on this thread yet! HA HA!
I fully realize that the fox is seldom caught. I just get irritated when fox-hunter deny any stress, pain or harm befall the fox that is being chased.
I expect the animal is scared witless, and time spent out-running hounds is time spent burning calories and not hunting for its own sustenance.
all the “Mr Reynard laughing up his sleeve” talk is pure rationalizing BS.
Again, if you feel the enjoyment you derive from hunting outweighs the fear and possible pain/injury the fox suffers, that’s cool, just admit it and stop trying to convince everyone that the fox doesn’t suffer anything!
I realize the lot of farm-raised animals is not always great. I realize they often live in less than optimal circumstances, and experience fear and pain in the slaughter process. But I admit that place a higher value on the benefits I derive from eating meet that I do on the animals well-being. I am not proud of that, but I do not try to assuage my guilt by pretending that caged-layers are happier being kept in cramped pens, or that little lambs go happily skipping off to meet their maker.
again- have you ever first hand been foxhunting A.P.? do you really know how to delve into the fox psyche? I know I can’t! But have been privy to watch the actions and eyes of a fox sitting on a coop watching the hounds work the scent he laid probably 20 minutes earlier, looking around like hmm…what are they doing?! If the fox were so afraid of the hounds, I’m not sure why we have 5 that live behind our hunt clubs kennels…
and rileyt- I almost spit coke all over my work computer!!
But while I haven’t been on a foxhunt (yet- we’re working on it, though fate keeps conspiring against it!), I have observed foxes doing this while on trail rides and also while out running on wooded trails- neither of which were instances where it took much energy to get out of the way or hide. I hate anthropomorphizing, but it really seemed like the fox was playing a game- seeing how close I could get before he dashed away up the trail and sat down and waited again.
On the other hand, the fox could have been trying to draw me away from a den or something… hard to say. But I swear if an animal could talk, the foxes would have been saying “neener neener!”
Hell, I suffer fear (am I going to fall off today?), pain (it’s been 4 hours, can we just GO IN?), and injury (mutiple scratch marks across face from branches and a bruised knee from the tree we rounded like a barrel racer)…so does that make you feel any better?
Not! As a wild creature it thinks two things – Am I being pursued…or not. The “waiting” part is to see if pursuit is/will take place – and if the creature will be free to continue in peace to pursue it’s own search for food/water/sleeping abode/mate… or if it will have to run for cover to save it’s own skin. I’ve “stumbled” upon foxes many, many times while out on the (wooded) trail. Because I am silent, they don’t know I’m there until they catch sight of movement. Then they usually go on the alert to figure out what I am, skitter out of range, then often turn and watch me closely to see if I present a danger to them. As long as I don’t deploy what they would consider a threat (chase them, hollar and yell) they will often just slide into the underbrush and be gone. If we are out in a field they will trot about 100’ away, and watch/wait for me to leave the area.
My observation is that, unlike many other forms of hunting, foxhunters do not employ stealth. Quite the opposite: we are extremely noisy, make no effort to conceal our scent, and surely transmit enormous vibrations through the earth via many scores of hooves and paws. Kind of hard to imagine any healthy fox not being able to elude us with that kind of advance warning.
Deer, which are “true” prey animals, are the only ones to perceive this kind of visual noisy activity as an immediate threat. That’s why you often see deer fleeing the scene, or getting panicked, running the wrong way into the hunt field, knocking riders off horses, etc. Watched it myself one day with a big antlered buck taking down a horse and rider in a frenzy to get away. Saw it several times with does crashing/leaping a line of foxhunters, the riders narrowly missing being badly hurt. I know of one foxhuter right now recovering from a bad deer crash just a week or so ago. Amazing, and a bit hair raising.
Foxes on the other hand, being predators, won’t alarm or move until they hear the verbal threat of the hounds, or the huntsman’s horn or voice, and that only happens if the fox is close enough to hear the hounds clearly enouggh to know it is time to leave the immediate area in haste – be it ducking into the nearest hole, or taking off cross country in a wide circle. That is why a huntsman will direct the whips to stand out at a distance, preferably on a hill, to watch and see if a fox has broken cover. The noise of the horn (and hunstman’s voice) to “encourage” the hounds to start casting for a scent is enough to alarm any nearby fox into moving. A fox will often break cover and take off – knowing full well that distance is often the best way to put danger at less of a risk-- and if a whip catches sight of the fox, they will raise the alarm higher (calling out with a whoop) for the huntsman to know when and where a fox has been sighted leaving the area. If the hounds hadn’t found as yet, the huntsman will bring the hounds to that area where the whip saw the fox and cast them again. A fox will lay down heavier scent when pursued, as opposed to just strolling, but the hounds have to find a fresh scent in order to “scare up” a fox and, thus, provide a chance for a chase. Cold scents lead no where and are no fun to the spectators. That is the reason that the fields are supposed to be QUIET and to stay at a distance from the huntsman and hounds – so that the fox isn’t alarmed so soon that it leaves the country too early in the game.
Foxhunting, however, isn’t a game to a wild creature. Nor is it a game to the pack that pursues the creature’s scent (and by default, the creature itself). It is deadly serious. The only creature who finds it “sport” is the human – they more-or-less direct the contest from one side (the pack) and watch the outcome – rather like the Roman crowds watching a gladiator fight, or the Spanish crowds watching a bull fight. It is very much a blood contest and a pack will, if events are in their favor, pursue the “quarry” to the bitter end.
Multiple fox in the area will all head different ways, leading split packs. It’s a case of “each to your own safety”. Only a mated pair with a den and kits will work as a team to draw a threat away. If the wild creature (that is targeted for pursuit) doesn’t know the territory, it has poorer odds for survival in this contest. If the pack catches up to the fox, they will kill it. It’s their nature.
Dress it up any way you like, it is still a cruel game.
I know the MFH of a small hunt who also kennels the hounds on her property. A fox, that is well known by sight, comes into the yard every night to check for cat food and strolls right by the kennels much to the dismay of the hounds and the people trying to sleep in the house. He has led the chase many times and has been seen sitting outside the pens on several nights. Once he led the hounds right through a big ouside wedding party. He doesn’t seem to be stressed by the whole scene.
Nor is it a game to the pack that pursues the creature’s scent (and by default, the creature itself). It is deadly serious. The only creature who finds it “sport” is the human – they more-or-less direct the contest from one side (the pack) and watch the outcome – rather like the Roman crowds watching a gladiator fight, or the Spanish crowds watching a bull fight. [/QUOTE]
You’re right about some things and wrong about some things.
SOMETIMES it’s a game if the fox is confident: they do indeed stop to watch and they have no concern. SOMETIMES it’s deadly serious (a fox caught out of his territory, or too full to run with the pack close behind). And I have no illusions that’s a picnic for the fox. I agree that it’s ‘deadly serious’ although I don’t think they’re thinking of it in the same way a human would be, but admit I do not know. And I also agree that a good hound may certainly want to catch and kill and not touch noses and play. (A hound pup, perhaps).
Where you’re wrong is the analogy to the gladiator fight (no escape for the glads out of the arena) and the bull fight (ditto: not only no escape for the bull out of the arena, but first it’s stabbed and wounded and weakened by mounted horsemen with those spears before the matador even enters). So these are terrible and totally inaccurate analogies to a free-ranging wild animal. Not even close.
It is indeed watching predator and prey (hound and fox) at work. That’s what hunting IS. And lots of people don’t like, but lots of people do.
So the question is are the ones who don’t like it allowed to decide what the ones who do like it can do? IOW, I don’t like hunting. Ok, so then don’t hunt. Oh, no, I don’t like hunting so YOU can’t hunt. ???
In England that question’s been answered, as it was answered in Nazi Germany when Hitler also outlawed mounted foxhunting.
I have an anti-hunting friend who agrees with the above scenario: if I say, ok, you don’t like it, so don’t do it, he says, oh, I don’t like it so I won’t do it and no one else can do it either. I laughed and told him I cannot abide soccer (he loves it and both his kids play constantly). I told him that the conversion of all the open park fields to overly fertilized and chemically enhanced grass soccer fields where no one is allowed except the local soccer teams annoys the heck out of me. I want soccer outlawed. I just don’t like it. And I know a lot of people besides me think soccer is stupid. He said don’t go watch it if it annoys me but it was ridiculous to outlaw something just because “I” didn’t like it when other people obviously love it. That was crazy.
