Do the hounds kill the fox?

Stopping and watching doesn’t make it a game. For the wild creature to stop and watch means they are making a decision whether the threat is oncoming and for them to continue running to save their life, or the threat has turned and they can relax and go on about their business. Young ones usually keep running because instinct tell thems to, and they have a lack of worldly knowledge to make an informed decision on whether they can safely stop… or not. Old ones, who have lived long enough to understand the cause-and-effect actions of other preditors, will pay attention to the sights and sounds of an event and determine when(if) the chase is moving away from them and (if) they are not in the line of fire. They will wait, watch, and listen. But this is NEVER a game.

The fox does NOT know that the hounds are after it unless the pursuit gets too close and too personal (the sound continues to advance and stay strong in the direction from which the fox has traveled). All wild animals will scatter at the sound of hounds coming on --rabbits, deer, racoons, fox, cats, birds, etc – they only know a preditor or pack of preditors is on the loose… and if the echos of sound are clear and growing, they know also they are standing in the path of approaching danger, and need to move. The sound alone is enough to warrent any creature into running, which is why hounds were bred to produce the long, melodious yodel – to keep the game running. Silent hounds are culled, or not bred back into the gene pool.

It is only when the threatening sound waves reduce or move away that a creature will slow or pause. Instinct will tell it at that point it is safe and can stop running. But if the sound returns (in strong or increasing volume) in the direction in which that creature is standing, the flight instinct kicks in again.

Where you’re wrong is the analogy to the gladiator fight (no escape for the glads out of the arena) and the bull fight (ditto: not only no escape for the bull out of the arena, but first it’s stabbed and wounded and weakened by mounted horsemen with those spears before the matador even enters). So these are terrible and totally inaccurate analogies to a free-ranging wild animal. Not even close.

I used these two merely to illustrate the “sport” of pitting of one creature against another for the amusement of spectators. I didn’t compare them to each other, nor did I desire to.

So the question is are the ones who don’t like it allowed to decide what the ones who do like it can do?

No, the question that was asked was: do the hounds kill the fox? The answer is: yes, if they can get it.

The rest of your post is a tangent based upon human moral issues – not part of this discussion. Nor will I go there. :slight_smile:

PS. I noticed it was also asked “Can somebody tell me that fox hunting in 2006 isn’t quite the same as fox hunting of old?” Answer: in America it is pretty much identical in form to British hunts…but not function. It was never an American practice to “stop” the earths (plug up the known dens of foxes in the area that would be hunting the following day) as in Britian and Ireland. Also (nowadays) American hunts do not chase to kill. If a fox goes to ground the huntsman will “honor” it --respectfully salute-- and leave the creature and site in peace, taking the pack with them. The focus for American hunts (today, although not up to about 50 years ago) is on the find and the chase, not a kill. Other than that, the general acceptance of dress, social protocol, structure, breeding of hounds, people hunting, horses used, etc all remains pretty much intact from the prior century. There are quite a few pretty hilarious stories one can read on hunting of old – shows that very little has changed for some people even today!

Yada yada yada…so what, we are fox psychologists now? PUH-LEASE. Neither you nor I KNOW what the fox is thinking, 100% percent without a doubt…

Some here are merely telling you accounts of PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. The latter being the operative words.

As everyone keeps saying, unless you have witnessed it PERSONALLY during a hunt from the back of horse, in OUR OPINION ONLY, there is little merit to your conclusions of the fox psyche.

Well, must sign off…gotta get to the barn to feed my hunt horse! :smiley:

Ther is nothing like criticism, from the viewpoint of the truly ignorant, to really hack you off!

Sure did witness it, sweetie, from the back of my whip horse. Not only was I a whipper-in for several years, I also walked puppies, and foxhunted since I was a teen in some of the best hunting territory in this country. Also hunted with some awsome farmer packs (private hunts) where you were up close and personal to everything going on, and rubbing shoulders and getting an incredible education with very knowledgeable huntsmen and hunters. I was given books on hunting with hounds to study, and would spend hours reading Beckford over and over again. We had to know and understand a lot more than the regular field member who is just out for a jolly good time – although I had a riotious good time doing that as well, especially when a non-hunted fox would traipse through the hunt field in a “who cares?” attitude, and everyone would just about fall off their horses with bugged out eyes. Always good for laughs later on. As it was, when you worked as staff, you got the opportunity to learn from the huntsman on what to do, what to expect, how to look for game, how to identify what was happening – are the hounds running a fox, or a deer, or something else like coyote – how to understand what the game will do, where to put yourself so that you are of best use to the pack, the huntsman, etc. We had to memorize the hounds – know their names, how they hunted, if they were leaders or followers – and know them immediately even when the pack was in full cry so we could report back who was running out front, who was running riot, who was missing, etc to know if the pack was honoring a true line, or not. Not my favorite part of the job trying to identify the lead hounds as they raced past at 90mph in a confusing crowd of black and white and tan, especially when they were all of similar litter titles in the alphabet. You usually had two seconds, and that was it, to identify who was who, and who was where.

I didn’t just tottle along with the field, looking all fine and dandy. I got clothes ripped up from having to pull hounds out of the underbrush, face slashed from branches as I raced to head off rioting hounds, and mud up the wazoo from having to be in places that the field would just blink at and say “not me!” I had to be out there, on my own, and know and understand what what happening and what needed to be done when fox scent met the hound nose. So I studied, read everything I could get my hands on regarding hunting hounds (not that fluff written on how to smile at the master and tie a stock tie), asked questions of some of the best regarding foxes and hunting hounds, and learned.

Yup, I’d say I qualify for knowing a bit or two about fox psychology when it comes to foxhunting.:smiley:

It’s also nice that we have a fox that will den every year on our property – or under our neighbor’s deck – which give me a lot of chance to watch foxes in their day to day rituals. Pretty creatures, and quite interesting to study.

<<I used these two [Spanish bullfighting and Roman gladiator battles] merely to illustrate the “sport” of pitting of one creature against another for the amusement of spectators. I didn’t compare them to each other, nor did I desire to.>>

Uh, nice try to backtrack, but you did.

You used them as a comparison. You wrote, and I quote, that foxhunting was “rather like” the Roman gladiators and the bullfights. And I pointed out that it was not at all like them.

I do agree with you that the posts about pups “catching” the fox only to play with it are not typical behavior, I don’t think, and ME PERSONALLY ONLY, I wouldn’t care for such a hound. Though I certainly believe the veracity of such stories, esp. with young hounds. But hunting is hunting. I admit that if hounds catch up to a fox, yes, I fully expect them to kill it. I believe, and scientific study backs me up, that the fox is dead within 1-3 seconds. The brouhaha in England quoted extensively from the study that ‘proved’ that the fox does not die from a broken neck, but usually from a crushed chest - IOW, it usually gets to take a breath (as in 1 breath) before expiring. The antis gave this tremendous publicity as it refuted the broken neck theory the the pro-hunting side kept saying, yet I thought this was so odd because the study did indeed prove that the fox was dead literally within 1-3 seconds of being caught and I couldn’t understand why the pro side didn’t extensively use that information. The ‘torn to pieces’ aftermath which upsets so many was proven to occur after the fox is definitely dead. The antis continually repeated the torn to pieces horrible way to die scenario and this study firmly disproved it. Post #1 in this thread used the fox is ‘torn to shreds’ statement.

So, science proved that foxes killed by hounds die in 1 second, MAYBE 3 seconds. Foxes gassed - I think it was 20-30 minutes. Poisoned? Could be anywhere from hours to days. Shot? Instantly <50% of the time, days, weeks, with concomitant suffering, FIFTY PERCENT OF THE TIME.

Pointing out again that the USA doesn’t hunt for the kill; I agree it’s dissembling to say they NEVER kill or to give the impression that hounds won’t kill if they should catch the fox - yet maybe after all these years in the States it’s not like when I was a kid and the hound better kill what it catches - maybe today hounds American hounds truly won’t kill when they catch. The point is to see for yourself and be open-minded and not just say stuff when the people who are out actually doing it know more than you and I.

Kill?

We whips carry radios as our territory is quite wooded and tight. Today my radio picked up a woman telling a man that there was a fox right outside their home . We were in a large nursery so I suspect it was abutting the property.

Anyway, she was describing a very mangey fox. I was happy our hounds didn’t find it.

I much prefer to harass coyote. They move quickly, are incredibly smart and I firmly believe feel superior to their canine cousins and the humans that follow. I also believe that a fox kill in the US is rare but a coyote kill is likely rarer. I could certainly be wrong.

I love the hounds. I love the sound of their voices and I love watching them work. The aspect of a live hunt is every hunt is different and you need to be far enough away to stay out of the way but close enough to know where they are and what the potential risks are . I’m still learning… what an incredible, exciting education :)!

Of course fox hounds kill the fox on a fox hunt. It does what it says on the can!

However the kill is over is seconds with the alpha hounds immediately grabbing the fox and killing it and the fox is long dead before the rest of the pack get on it.

However that doesn’t make for such good reading by the “antis”

Wow… lots of replies on a topic that would have been avoided like the plague just a few years ago. I tried to read most of the posts so that I don’t repeat.

I am not currently active with any hunts. Had children not too long ago and its quite a drive to hunt so I’m focusing on being a mom right now. However, I hunted for about 12 years, primarily in the southeast. During that time I witnessed many “kills”. All were instantaneous and the animals did not seem to suffer. On many occasions I also witnessed the hunted animal, rarely strained in his run.

When those animals were killed, I can’t say that anyone was overjoyed with the killing. The masters and huntsmen were proud of their hounds but there wasn’t a big to-do, especially in more recent times. The only person I ever saw who truly celebrated was the land- owner. We killed many cayotes that were celebrated by land owners.

Blooding was common when I started hunting. It was a bit of a shock to me and I was disgusted by it. Later I understood it more and was proud to have hunted in a time when it was openly offered. Now, even with hunts that frequently kill, blooding is not offered. You can request it. Many people don’t know to request it, some with good hosts will know about it and some, whom other hunt members pick up on as politically okay, will be asked (by a field member) if they want to be blooded. But all of this was 5 years ago, they may not offer it at all now.

I admit that I have a fox and bobcat on my wall. It was a huge honor to have these trophies awarded to me. Some people ask about them but once they get to know me they learn that I am not a blood thirsty person. I love the thrill of the chase. I love hearing that first voice call out from a trusted hound and knowing that we will soon be off. Just as much, I love the horse who listens for that first call and begins to twitch with excitement. The same horse who jigs home after 2-3 hours of solid galloping.

I hope I didn’t gross anyone out or offend, just trying to offer a different view.

Would you kill your favorite tennis partners??? Nuff said…

Not quite the same thing, Melelio

[QUOTE=Melelio;2195454]
Would you kill your favorite tennis partners??? Nuff said…[/QUOTE]

Depends on what they were wearing and whether or not they were poaching my “pro”. :winkgrin:

After watching the superbowl I don’t think anyone has room to talk about “cruelty.”
Those poor morons.
It must be like getting into a car wreck every weekend. They trade their strong bodies for money, buy all the relatives a house, and end up crippled and broke at 40. Antis would do better to focus on that.
“Yes, but they are conscious humans!” Not quite - after they’ve been brain-washed all their lives.

Boy did this thread take a big 'ole nose dive after being ressurected…

Nice try, Melelio…but ah…NOPE. :wink:

[QUOTE=xeroxchick;2196747]
After watching the superbowl I don’t think anyone has room to talk about “cruelty.”
Those poor morons.
It must be like getting into a car wreck every weekend. They trade their strong bodies for money, buy all the relatives a house, and end up crippled and broke at 40. Antis would do better to focus on that.
“Yes, but they are conscious humans!” Not quite - after they’ve been brain-washed all their lives.[/QUOTE]

How about that Blockbuster ad? They were torturing a mouse. Why aren’t the animal rights crowd after that one?

Do the hounds kill the fox?

In over 50 years of hunting - a many different hunts.I’ve only seen two foxes killed… One was deliberate - the huntsman felt a kill would make his hounds keaner (he’s now on the wall at Morven Park) and the second the fox was stupid and the new entry got him,(he ducked under a set of steps and the main body of hounds ran past…not the youngsters!)

It’s the thrill of the chase - which you never get in a ‘drag’ hunt - and the music when the hounds open that keeps most of us going…

MVP!! Hi! Miss you at the PB.

SAPP

It’s the thrill of the chase - which you never get in a ‘drag’ hunt - and the music when the hounds open that keeps most of us going…

In a nutshell…

Hmmmm, I have had some pretty good thrills drag hunting.

Gee, looks like this thread is recently revived after having been around a long time!

Yes, foxes and coyotes do get killed by the foxhounds during hunting. It doesn’t happen often as has been stated, in over 30 years I’ve seen 5 kills. As has been noted, it’s a quick kill, and the whole affair is on the fox’s (or coyote’s) own terms- scent hunting. If the fox is overly stressed, then please explain to me why:

  1. Foxes not only survive, but thrive, in country that is hunted regularly compared with country that is not hunted. If being pursued by a pack of hounds were truly detrimental to their wellbeing, wouldn’t they all either die of the stress, or move to an area where they couldn’t be hunted?

  2. In the U.S., the average life expectancy of a red fox is 2.5 years. Again, if being hunted by a pack of hounds is stressful to the fox, then why can many of us, self included, recall specific foxes that provided reliable sport for 4, 5, even 6 years?

  3. Out here in the west, a coyote that sees ‘anybody’ coming from two miles away, takes off. Coyotes are likely to be shot at from that distance by ranchers with rifles. Soooo, why have the coyotes that are hunted in Red Rock country in Nevada adapted from taking off in a straight line when the hounds are onto them, to circling much like a fox until they don’t want to play anymore (and then just turning on the afterburners and withdrawing from the chase)? Could it be that they’ve figured out the game, and realize that it’s not much of a threat, especially in comparison to ranchers with rifles?

Those who don’t foxhunt (or stalk deer, or shoot at upland birds or waterfowl) have trouble understanding that ‘it’s not about the kill.’ No one rejoices when death occurs. Maybe it’s that hunters are a little less in denial about the fact that death is, well, a fact of life. It is hard to explain, but anybody who cares to do a bit of independent and unbiased research will pretty quickly figure out that hunters who take all the flak for killing animals, actually save far more animals and habitat than do the animal rights organizations.

go beverly!!!