I just heard about a neighbor who gave her horse Zimecterin Gold, and she had not heard of the reaction problems. Her horse had a bad reaction. She thought it was neurological at first, but then researched Z Gold since she had just given it to the horse.
Makes me mad, and it is not even my horse. Why o why is this product still on the market!!!
Everything out there will cause a reaction in the right horse. Heck horses are allergic to alfalfa, oats, etc. SOME horses are allergic to PenG, sulfa based drugs, etc - just like SOME react to the Z gold.
Horses can suddenly develop issues with something they have had for years.
Z gold is simply the curse of the moment.
[QUOTE=Just Wondering;3580229]
Everything out there will cause a reaction in the right horse. Heck horses are allergic to alfalfa, oats, etc. SOME horses are allergic to PenG, sulfa based drugs, etc - just like SOME react to the Z gold.
Horses can suddenly develop issues with something they have had for years.
Z gold is simply the curse of the moment.[/QUOTE]
This is so true. I have a horse that gets gas colic ~3-6 times/yr. Usually on lush green grass. 
This spring I wormed with a generic Ivermectin, the $3.00 variety, before they have had breakfast like I usually do. About 40 minutes after worming, when the horses were out on lovely, lush, rich green grass, my boy comes galloping in, sweating from head to tail, rolling and obviously a good case of gas colic. :eek: I run to get him and give him Banamine PO and start to walk him to the indoor where my lunge line is to lunge him till he feels better. He almost went down on me twice before I got him lunging. In about 20 minutes the Banamine started to take effect and he was just as fine as can be. Now, do I blame it on the lush grass even though they had only been out less the 30 minutes ( and they were up to being out all day) or do I blame it on the generic Ivermectin?
Letās put it this way, Iām not blaming the generic Ivermectin BUT Iām also not using it again either. It could have been the combination or something else.
Actually, I havenāt used any Ivermectin product since as I switched to the daily wormer (for a totally different reason though).
The horses are about due for their Equimax dose though and Iām half scared to do it. Iāve got the vet coming next week to do teeth on the old guy I have here so Iām going to ask her if she had heard of any reactions to the generic Ivermectin. Iāve used both Equimax and Zimectrin Gold and never had a problem so Iām hoping my horseās reaction this spring was just gas. 
Iāve heard of horses getting reactions to other wormers. Some have terrible reactions to vaccinations. You canāt pull everything off the market.
Iāve used zimectrin gold and have never seen a reaction in any of the horses.
I believe the warning about mouth ulcers is included in the data sheet in every box of Zimectrin Gold.
msj - when you give your paste dewormers are the horsesā stomachs empty? Perhaps that is the trigger. ??
Yep. They can have reactions to anything. Beet pulp is one of the favorites to feed on COTH, but my guy looks at it and breaks out into a mess of hives. Only horse Iāve ever met. Iām sorry your friend had an issue with Z gold, but probably 99.999% of the time it is used, there are no ill effects. Iāve used it plenty myself, and never had a problem (in fact, just ordered some this morning).
[QUOTE=MayS;3580313]
You canāt pull everything off the market.QUOTE]
So true! the immune system is darn complicated. Just think how many reactions people have to meds, environment, etc. As an RN I see drug reactions all the time - some are from drugs the person tolerated with no problem in the past. Their bodies formed antibodies to it for whatever reason, then next time they get it, BAM reaction. The reaction may not even be to the drug, but to something they used to compound the drug. (something it was mixed with in order to give it - paste, flavor, etc)
Womer is a drug, just like any other.
Whenever a drug is given you need to keep your eyes out for an allergic reaction, generally observe the horse for about 30min after a dose. Have an antihistamine available for a horse prone to allergic reactions. Dont give a bunch of new things together or you wont know what the horse reacted too. Even with immunizations I write down where I gave what, incase a local reaction develops over the next day.
If you do have a mild reaction and can avoid what caused it in the future, good. If you need to give the same thing again, talk about it with your vet and see what they reccomend.
Its not that kind of reaction. Its a chemical burn and they have had enough complaints that they not only changed the packaging but they pay for all the Vet bills and even for full courses of GastroGuard. They have an entire department that exists just to collect information on the burns and pay out the claims. They know and they have known for a long time.
Its not the active ingredientāits something in the carrying agent. Nobody should have to assume the risk of a bad carrying agent if there are other products with the same active ingredients that do not cause the burns.
Once again, get the word āreaction and allergicā out of your minds. Vaccines have reactions. Foods cause allergic reactions. ZG burns the mouth in certain cases. I am not āallergicā to fire or acid but its going to burn me anyway. I am not super senstive to battery acid but its going to burn anyway.
There have been no reported burns from Equimax. The makers of ZG have had more then enough time to figure out why their product burns.
The COTH threads have been pruned since my horse got burned and I first came to COTH, but there were threads with 17 out of 20 horses in a single barn and other large numbers. Its not that rare becuase it has to do with āhowā you worm, not who you worm. If you use th etechnique where you wipe off that last dab on the lips onthe way out? You are much more likely to have a burn.
Mix ZG with plain water at a rate of 1:20 and very dilute ZG had a ph high enough to burn. Higher then 12. There is no reason to sell a product designed to be put in the mouth that reacts badly with water. I didnāt have the nerve to even put a little solution on my arm to see if it burned.
The warning on the label?? Transient reaction in some horses. Yes, thats true, but if you just burned a hole in your horses mouth even if it will heal in time that does not make you feel any better. And thats just the part we can see. My horse needed 4 weeks of GG to heal the ātransient reactionā that burned him one end to the other.
If I had just used Equimax that would not have happened at all. There is no excuse for that kind of burn if the stuff can be made safely and cheaper by another company.
I think the company is trying to find out why the burns happen, but they arenāt trying hard enough. My join date is when my horse got burned and there were threads here that went back to 2005 on the subject.
I had used the stuff with no problems before too, but if it gets in the wrong place at the wrong time and saliva starts flowing to wash it off it turns into a very caustic base that burns. And until the ZG is all cleared off and the tounge and throat and face swell up too big to swallow, all that solution is being swallowed.
Both active ingredients are used in humans. I suggest anyone who thinks the burns from ZG are just a rare uncontrollable reaction put a tiny tiny dab on the inside of your cheek and then swish a glass of water in your mouth. Oh wait, better not, humans can breathe if their throats swell shut:mad:
Its a preventable problem. Equimax prevents the problem somehow, so why canāt ZG?
3 of my 4 were burned. Didnt even know it until vet came out to do teeth and thought they were mouth ulcers indicative of stomach ulcers.
I will never use it again.
[QUOTE=HandsomeBayFarm;3580511]
3 of my 4 were burned. Didnt even know it until vet came out to do teeth and thought they were mouth ulcers indicative of stomach ulcers.
I will never use it again.[/QUOTE]
Statistically speaking, how rare is that? How likely that 3/4 horses had some immune response at the same time?
How many people that use it look inside thier horses mouths or scope them after use?
Is it only those of us that manage to burn close to the outside that even notice?
The horses āallergicā to PenG are going to āreactā when they receive an injection.
I have a friend who gets hives when she gets animal saliva on her skin. Is it a reaction or an allergy? Her doctors call it an allergic reaction.
Fire and an acid are going to burn 100% of the time. Not the same type of comparison.
Iāve never had a reaction to Z gold either.
we need a sticky, b/c although i have over 6000 posts,
i apparently missed this discussion last time aroundā¦:eek:
[QUOTE=gabz;3580329]
msj - when you give your paste dewormers are the horsesā stomachs empty? Perhaps that is the trigger. ??[/QUOTE]
gabz, yes, I do worm on a āgenerallyā empty stomach. I believe that is what has been recommended as the best to get the worms out, if there are any. Iāve been doing so for yrs and never had a problem. I say āgenerallyā empty stomachs because my boys are out in a small sacrifice paddocks at night and while they get a flake or 2 of hay, there is also grass in those paddocks. Iām sure they snack all night so I seriously doubt their tummies are completely empty! 
Frankly, it wouldnāt hurt either horse to miss a few meals. Both have love handles on their love handles!
[QUOTE=Just Wondering;3580537]
The horses āallergicā to PenG are going to āreactā when they receive an injection.
I have a friend who gets hives when she gets animal saliva on her skin. Is it a reaction or an allergy? Her doctors call it an allergic reaction.
Fire and an acid are going to burn 100% of the time. Not the same type of comparison.
Iāve never had a reaction to Z gold either.[/QUOTE]
Again, go to your neighborhood pool store. Buy a ph test kit for $5. Now go collect a bunch of used ZG tubes and swish out a little of the residue. Test it. Do it 1x, 2x, 100x, and it will still be so high it can burn. It will test high enough to burn 100% of the time. Just like fire where and how long you are exposed can have something to do with if and how badly you are burned.
Does it burn horses 100% of the time? We do not know. If you worm correctly and shove the tube alll the way to the back on the tounge and they swallow, where would the burns be? Somewhere you would have to scope to see them? I donāt think it burns all the time, but I sure havenāt looked.
Now, if you had a Penn that did NOT cause allergic reactions at all and a brand that did sometimes, which would you buy? Would you see any reason to have the other brand sold with no BOLD warnings? What if that brand were MORE expensive? Why would anyone buy it unless its just becuase they didnāt know?
I had used Zimectrin products for years. Did it occur to me to open the package and read the fine print 3 years after the product was released? No. It did not. I read the risks when the new active ingredient was added and not evey time I wormed a horse. And even if I had, I would not have expected THAT to be the mild transient reaction that described. If it wasnāt for Google and COTH I would have had a $1,000 Vet bill. They havenāt even spread this information to Vets so they know what they are looking at.
Why excuse that behavior?
I wish I could post the pictures of a horse with is face and tounge so swollen it lookded like a harpooned whale. And what did the company Vets say to look for as he healed? BLACKENED DEAD fleash. Chucks of dead blackened mouth falling out or infection. I used the wormer to make him healthier, not to burn his mouth to crap:eek:
Do they warn you not to sue the product before you show or travel or have any plans to put a bit in the horseās mouth or expect him to not have a baloon head?
Do they warn you that since the horse got burned worse by trying to drink water to soothe the pain he might be afraid to drink for days? How many hours do you want your horse to be afraid to drink? Do they warn you about any of that when you chose ZG over a safer product that does not burn?
I have a dog that got hit by a car. That has as much to do with this subject as the existance of people with alergies. Some things have risks that cannot be overcome. This is not one of them. Equimax does not burn.
My horse had a horrible reaction to ZG and I will never use it again, that is all I know. I have not had any problem with plain Zimectrin or Equimax so it is for sure something in the ZG. The poor boy his mouth and lips looked horrible, very painful.
Hereās the FDA Precaution Statement - dated July 2004
http://www.fda.gov/cvm/FOI/141-214s071304.pdf
Section 3 - Target Animal Safety
No new data was required for this supplement to NADA 141-214 (original
approval April 17, 2003) and this supplement did not require review of the
original target animal safety data for this product.
However, post-marketing adverse events reported to the CVM Adverse Drug
Event (ADE) database have included reports of swelling and irritation of the
mouth, lips, and tongue following administration of ZIMECTERIN Gold Paste.
These reactions have been transitory in nature.
Post marketing means they rely on us to report problems. Without the internet I would not have reported any problems, known they were common or known what to do about it. Nor did my Vet if I had not been 100% sure that the wormer cuased the swelling.
So since 2004, after the did all ther company research to see if it was safe, they have been selling a product they know causes burns.
I had to answer about 50 questions when filing my report. They have no clue as to why it happens, how often it happens or how to fix it. They would do much better to fix the problem if the read COTH or googled then they are doing now.
I actually thought this was common knowledge. If you read the Killing Adult Occ, thread they tell people over and over to use Equimax instead of ZG.
Lots of bad things are been transitory in nature, that doesnāt mean I want to pay for them or do it on purpose. The alternitve is permanant? Does that make it better? Cause, you know, it wont kill your horse or anything?
I agree - Chemical burn and allergic reaction are entirely different.
I work with chemotherapy and give many drugs that could āeatā a hole in your flesh if you spilled it on you, severly damage tissue if it leaked out of the vein when given. I am extremely careful giving it. That is in NO way an allergic response, it is the cells responding to a very harsh chemical with PH and osmolarity very different from it. Its ugly but not allergy related. these are considered ADVERSE drug reactions, not ALLERGIC drug reactions.
I am curious now about this and will have to do more research. I have personally never had an issue with ZG but did not go searching mouths for wounds. I do have one mare who will let you do anything to her, but draws the line at worming with paste. Perhaps she had an issue in the past.
the FDA has a department for Veterinary medicineā¦maybe the adverse reactions have not been reported to them?
I will look into it for my own piece of mind but will pass along anything interesting.
OKā¦maybe not enough ADEās have been reported. Saw Equinelaws post after mineā¦
There should still be a way to get some action to fix the problem.
[QUOTE=Lexation;3580767]
OKā¦maybe not enough ADEās have been reported. Saw Equinelaws post after mineā¦
There should still be a way to get some action to fix the problem.[/QUOTE]
I know exactly how to fix the problem. I need to sue them to either fix the product or make the warnings more visable. Of course since they had paid all my damages before I even had a chance to google the problem I cannot sue them myself. I have no damages so I cannot sue. They outsmarted me on that in less then an hour and after 2 days on the phone when they found out I was a lawyer they refused to speak with me any more.
I have no client so I cannot sue. I am willing to sue on someone elseās behalf for free just to get it fixed, but people are so distrusting of lawyers they do not beleive me when I say Iāll sue for you. Nobody will win any money, but I can force them to fix the problem or give better warnings.
I just dont think the FDA has time to worry too much about horse wormers. They are doing all they can just to keep up with human meds.
If I can figure out the ph problem in my kitchen with my limited knowledge of chemstry I think the company should be able to do it too. Surely they must own a ph meter? They just haven;t tested the stuff in a waek solution ebcuase they forget how much slobber a horse can produce if there is a pain in the mouth.
Thats sort of what is so cool about this case. Imagine a room full of execs and lawyers denying there is any problem. Then imagine someone dropping a bit of ZG in a test tube with a ph tab. It changes to the darkest color possible. Very dramtic. No imagine asking them to rub some on their arm:)
Its no more cuastic then concrete, but we dont put that in horses mouths or consider it dangerous either.
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