Do we need a No Zimecterin Gold sticky

[sid]

Have not read all the replies.

Yes…needs a sticky. I used that product one year without incident. Most of the time I have used Equimaxx, but when I went to order I chose the less expensive product believing that they were exactly alike.

Only THIS time when I dewormed all the horses with it I literally watched on of my mare’s face blow up starting at the lips on the side of the face where I administered the product. There was no mistake that the product caused her severe reaction.

I was lucky that the vet just happened to be on site for something else, so he administered dex to counteract her reaction.

Clearly, while Zimectrin Gold and Equimaxx the products contain the same amount of deworming products, the carrier with which it is delivered is different.

It is also worth the thought that allergies seldom appear the first time that the offending substance is delivered. It could be that we’re seeing more reactions to Zimectrin Gold as it is more frequently used so the antigen against the carrier of the product is also more frequently seen.

Yep…big sticky at my barn… Her reaction blew my mind and there was no mistaking that was the cause. For the last 3 years, I’ve used Equimaxx with no problems like I had with ZG at all.

[equinelaw]

The really strange things is that there are almost no threads or posts about any people having a problem with Quest. We all believe that and most of us avoid it.

I am wondering about EM now though. I take Chalt’s word as given.

[JB]

@sid;4308791

Clearly, while Zimectrin Gold and Equimaxx the products contain the same amount of deworming products, the carrier with which it is delivered is different.

See my post somewhere in here that shows the breakdown - EM has more praziquantel

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=equinelaw;4308796]
The really strange things is that there are almost no threads or posts about any people having a problem with Quest. We all believe that and most of us avoid it.

I am wondering about EM now though. I take Chalt’s word as given.[/QUOTE]

Well mouth ulcers some people may chance. Death, most people won’t chance.

[equinelaw]

I know, but if it were the PRQ causing the burns, EM would come out the winner in the burn race. It does not. Plain Zimect does not burn. So its probably not the active ingredients.

[Sithly]

One of our boarders’ horses had a reaction to ZG. Nasty mouth sores. Ulcers showed up afterwards, but I don’t know for sure they were related to the ZG.

[sid]

These deworming substances are tested in mega-doses before they are put on the market.

Personally, the difference in the substances are so minor between the two products, my science-head leans me to believing it must be something in the additive (carrier) in which it is delivered. Not the “medication” itself.

[BarbB]

To answer the original question…I would like to see one of these longer threads on wormers made into a sticky. I would like to be able to refer to the info and experience available. Wormers are poison and should not be treated as ‘safe’ and it is nice to try to keep up on any problems, how widespread etc.

edited to add:
I just made it a sticky. If there is a better thread, feel free to replace it.

[equinelaw]

[QUOTE=sid;4308881]
These deworming substances are tested in mega-doses before they are put on the market.

Personally, the difference in the substances are so minor between the two products, my science-head leans me to believing it must be something in the additive (carrier) in which it is delivered. Not the “medication” itself.[/QUOTE]

I think we are all in agreement about that. So how do we get them to fix it? Look at the ph test results. What causes that?

[chaltagor]

Of course I can’t say absolutely what caused it. I didn’t even put it together until tonight when I read this thread. It may not have caused it, but damn if it isn’t exactly like the mouth burns described and pictured in relation to Zimecterin Gold. He now looks like a burn victim with the healing skin patchy and white where it should be brown.

[sid]

Sometimes you have to spread the word by massive antedotal information. My vet would not have believed it had he not seen the problem erupt in front of his eyes.

COTH is a business venture and surely would not post something that be construed as slander by a drug company. There would be a huge liablitity to doing so.

Just keep passing the word…

[poltroon]

I didn’t actually know about the mouth ulcer problem, but my vet had suggested to me a while back that he preferred the Equimax and thought it was worth the extra money. So, I started using it.

I was surprised to note that my mare, who I always considered hellish to deworm, didn’t mind Equimax at all. She hates every other possible wormer, but that one is NBD.

Also, the Equimax comes in a pretty large dose, and it’s enough poundage that I just split it between my two ponies, so the cost ends up being about the same to do all three of them anyway.

[cloudyandcallie]

I never used Quest, but when my friend Lucy told me about the issues, I decided I won’t ever use.it.

My vet has not mentioned any problems with Quest or with Zimectrin Gold and my vet is a Michigan State grad who is board certified, so he warns us about vaccines and everything else.

My WB is very large, and my tb mare was 16 hands and an easy keeper, so maybe the dosage was fine for both of them when I used Zimectrin Gold for 8 yrs. I worm a lot, so I never have had the issues other people have had on their threads about threadworms or any other types of worms.
I always have fed a lot of supplements and probiotics and always gave my horses their wormer on a full stomach. I wonderful if feeding before giving a wormer makes a difference? I’ve never seen burn marks or ulcers in their mouths either, and I’ve always got my hands in horses’ mouths.

[JB]

@cloudyandcallie;4310180

My WB is very large, and my tb mare was 16 hands and an easy keeper, so maybe the dosage was fine for both of them when I used Zimectrin Gold for 8 yrs.

A “very large WB” is likely to weigh more than the 1250lb that a tube of ZG is for, so you may want to check on that. If you rely on a weight tape, know that they can easily be 200lb under-weighing a horse. Try this caculation and see what you get.

It puts my TB mare, 16.1-ish, light boned (ie cob-sized head) at just over 1200lb. the weight tape puts her barely over 1100lb.

I worm a lot, so I never have had the issues other people have had on their threads about threadworms or any other types of worms.

Just know that worming a lot isn’t necessarily a good thing, and isn’t necessarily going to prevent issues if you under-dose by enough, often enough. I’m not saying you are, just saying…

[equinelaw]

Its a chemical reaction. It does not care whether we consider ourselves good horse mommies or bad horse mommies. It has no idea if the stomach is full or empty. It does not know if the horse has worms or not. It does not care how often the horse is wormed.

ZG+ too much water makes a very high ph solution. I posted pictures of it in a test tube. No other factor was present in the test tube but small amounts of ZG and water.

HOW you worm can make a difference. As I have stated before, I think if you get it all on the back of the tongue behind the salavary glands its mostly going to go down OK. But if your horse has a kick-stand head like mine did, or you are trying to make sure every drop gets into the horse by twisting off that last dob on the inside of the lips, it can burn and floods of slobber are released to wash it off. Great gush of slobber+small amount of ZG=burn. Then the drinks water to try and relieve the pain and more burn.

The rates of horses that are burned are much higher for some people then for others. Those that get burned in a large barn might be 50-75% of the horses while those that do not get burned will be most of the horses. So it makes sense that technique matters. We all have our own techniques if its something we do often.

I always give the whole tube to a horse and always have. I always do that twist motion to wipe off the last bit. I have never de-wormed a whole barn since ZG came out, but I’d bet if I did my rates of burns would be very high. In one thread 17 out of 22 horses got burned. In this thread we had a 3 out of 4.

Its made to be pushed to the back of the mouth and released there. That is not how everybody always worms. In fact, for some breeds and horses the tube isn’t really even long enough to do that unless you cram your whole hand in there too. But I do know that in the thousands of times I have tube wormed I always do that wipe off all you can get before pulling it out thing unless its a pony or a young horse that does not get the full tube. Then I hold the head up until they swallow.

Not every body does that. Some people find using tube wormer difficult and things have been invented to make it easier. I have never had any problems, so I have all the time in the world to wipe whatever is still on or in the tube inside the mouth. I go in at an angle from the corner of the lips and push back as far as it will go, but as I pull out I twist and wipe and scrape that last bit off inside the cheek and lips. That is where my horse got burned. Right where I left that last dab. I have done it enough times to know just where I would have left that last dab. That was the epicenter of the yellow brown burn. Nothing was wrong with the other side of his mouth.

[sid]

EQuinelaw – I don’t think there is any way of “fixing” it, though I thought that someone on an older post said that eventually there would be a warning label. I haven’t used the product since my mare’s debacle, so I haven’t checked.

In the meantime, threads like this are helpful. There is an alternative to ZG. Then, if the ZG label will be amended as to this hazard, let’s hope people read the label…

[mtk9122]

ZG

I posted way back on this thread about having to sign a release etc to get even part of the vet bills paid on the burns to my horse’s mouth. This was the one and only time I used ZG on my horse, a very small amount got onto his right upper and lower lip. Within minutes, his mouth started swelling, his tongue came out and I called the vet to tell them I was hitching up and bringing him to the clinic that he had had a reaction to the ZG. 15 minutes later, I unloaded him at the clinic and they were amazed at what they saw. And still they insisted it couldn’t be the wormer. We ended up with quite a nice vet bill, treatment included GG etc.

Then I googled ZG, came up this thread, and called Merial “help” desk. They sent me their forms, I sent them copies of my bills etc. and we were partially reimbursed although of course, they sent me the strictly worded warning about ever saying anything about the incident. I am sorry that I put my pony through all of that but honestly, they have a phone number and claims desk just to handle these complaints and settle the claims and hush the whole thing up. Wouldn’t it be more cost effective to figure out what the problem is and fix it?

Now, let’s talk about Kieffer ramps and their issues…

[equinelaw]

[QUOTE=BarbB;4308903]
To answer the original question…I would like to see one of these longer threads on wormers made into a sticky. I would like to be able to refer to the info and experience available. Wormers are poison and should not be treated as ‘safe’ and it is nice to try to keep up on any problems, how widespread etc.

edited to add:
I just made it a sticky. If there is a better thread, feel free to replace it.[/QUOTE]

Cool. I did not even know you could do that:)

[CoolMoney]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;4308093]
Actually that doesn’t sound like it was from the wormer to me. I think if you saw it in the mouth and throat it would be possible but not likely the way you described. Even if it was however, don’t beat yourself up, you didn’t mean to harm him. Just cross it off your list and go from there.[/QUOTE]

I wormed him very efficiently, shot the paste way back in his throat, as he doesn’t try to touch the sun with his nose when administering wormers. There was no wormer to wipe away from the side of his mouth. He is still having difficulties when trying to eat though, so I wonder if we (the vet and I) didn’t miss “eyeballing” something in his mouth/tongue. The GastroGard seems to be starting to work in inhibiting the acid production. Today, I am so thankful as he finished half of a bucket of water overnight.

The vet who scoped Cooly specializes in scoping. She sees a lot of horses every day. There was no evidence of past ulcers, no visable scaring. These are glandular ulcers, different than the ulcers one would see cause by stress. There is no doubt the small intestine’s ulcers were caused by the Zimecterin Gold worming. Nothing else has changed in this little guy’s quiet life. I wormed him in the afternoon on Friday, and woke up to a lot of manure in his pea gravel paddock when I went to our barn to turn him out into the field for morning grass. He has hay and water only overnight, there wasn’t anything else he could have “gotten into”. Immediately, starting Saturday, there was no eating or drinking from my normally very avid eater/drinker horse.

[stellarj1]

I am trying to research the latest issues that have been experienced using Zemecterin Gold. I wormed my two mares on Tuesday with ZG and both had severe reaction. Exactly as has been described throughout this particular thread. However I am unable to find recent reportings. Is this because the problem has lessened? or perhaps people are not actively reporting? would appreciate help… am new to COTH