I totally agree with EquineLaw. I posted here about ZG BURNING my horse’s mouth at least 5 years ago. I would not have seen it, as suspect most people wouldn’t, unless they were really looking, but my vet had arrived to float teeth. Her first question was did you worm him and was it ZG? She had already seen many burns and had contacted the Co. several times. She treated his burns, which included bloody skin sloughing off inside his mouth, swollen throat and tongue and that was only what we could see. To make a long story shorter- the co. refused a refund on unused tubes but would pay for vet, BUT only if I signed a ream of papers saying they and their product had not caused any problems and were innocent of any injury and I would NEVER discuss this with anyone. Needless to say I did not sign, did not get paid and have told everyone I know!!!
It burns your horses folks, why are you debating about using such a lethal product?
Zimecterin Gold Burned Small Intestine
Had my horse scoped yesterday, August 14. He had horrible ulcers in the opening to his small intestine. We could see ulcers going into the small intestine, but were unable to see farther into it. Smaller ulcers in the stomach, non in the throat or on his mouth. I used Zimecterin Gold on him Friday afternoon Aug. 7th, and Saturday morning he had emptied his intestines and would not eat or drink. It has gone on for a week, with the vets thinking it was Potomac Horse Fever (no fever) in an innoculated horse. Would not consider it being the wormer, though I pushed the subject, noting this forum. The vets had no idea there is a major problem with this product. Now they do, and I hope they will at least pass on the information to their clients.
I had used Zimecterin Gold on this horse for at least the two years before, and all of my other horses too. No problem until now, and this one is a major problem. No reason for him to have to suffer. And do I need to mention the thousands of dollars I will have spent to get him well? I will use Equimax instead from now on, which has no known complaints so far, and does the same job. I feel horrible to have done this to my baby horse.
Actually that doesn’t sound like it was from the wormer to me. I think if you saw it in the mouth and throat it would be possible but not likely the way you described. Even if it was however, don’t beat yourself up, you didn’t mean to harm him. Just cross it off your list and go from there.
this is interesting
I had a episode last fall where I noticed sores on my horses tongue- could not figure out what from; going to have to go back and check my records to see if I used ZG around that time…
I have never had any problems with this product ever - 35 horses wormed with it at least twice in the last year - zip nadda no problems.
Me neither. No issues with it.
That’s great for you guys that have never had problems with it. But some folks do. I had an issue with it two years ago on one horse. Horse had been wormed with it plenty of times before with no problems. Crap happens. Just because some of you use it with no problems doesn’t mean that those of us who have dealt with horses having reaction will ever use it again. Equimax is much safer.
This statement indicates you have no idea how omeprazole works. It is a proton pump inhibitor, i.e., it works directly on the cells lining the stomach that produce acid. It turns off acid production by inhibiting the enzymes need to produce acid. Omeprazole has no healing/soothing effects on tissue. It contributes to healing gastic ulcers by turning off the production of ACID.
Unlike gastric ulcers, ulcers in the colon are not caused by acid. If your horses colonic ulcers were caused, as you claim, by a product with a pH high enough to cause a burn, how would raising the pH in the stomach help? Makes no logical sense to me at all.
Again, how were those colonic ulcers diagnosed? Pretty darn hard to do in a horse.
The coloring might work fine on other solutions, but perhaps it does not react well with the active ingredients in ZG. Chemicals are not always safe in any combination. Soduim and chlodie work fime together, but not so much fun apart.
Specious argument, counselor. You might want to consider taking a basic chemistry class. 
What else differs between Equimax and ZG? Or ZG and GG carrying agent?
Since I have access to neither Merial’s nor Pfizer’s formularies, I have no idea. And neither do you. If you ever decide to sue, I certainly hope you prepare for the case better than this.
I smoke coggerettes. I have smoked for over 30 years. I do not have lung cancer or heart disease. Does that prove ciggerettes are safe? I do not know anyone who smokes or has those problems, so ciggerettes are safe and those that have problems are just “senistive” or having a “reaction”?
Another specious argument. If a product has a high enough pH to cause a chemical burn, it would cause that burn in darn near ALL subjects exposed to it very quickly. How do you explain away the 1000’s and 1000’s of horses that didn’t get any burns from the product?
Hmmm. My hypothesis was that the ZG not only caused ulcers in the mouth but also in the small intestine. Now a poster tests that theory and finds it to be true. So o o o o o o o. . . . . .at this point you decide I am clueless?
I have explained how and why it burns certain horses and not others since the first day I started on COTH. You apparently are too lazy to stupid to read those posts before you start spouting off.
Now, I have taken a basic chemistry class and the other 6 basic chemistry classes plus all that silly biochemical nonsense in grad school where I did all the silly stuff with internal PH meters and and wrote those papers that get quoted on COTH all the time. I predicted the results that were found for the person who revived this thread. You did what?
So I put forward a theory, had it tested, backed it up with reasons and science and it was tested and showed exactly what I expected. You know, science. The next question would be that of sheer numbers. How many of the horses that were burned also have those ulcers? Its really expensive to find out and not all Vets have a scope that goes that far back, so unless the manufacturer wants to test it we might never know. I did not have my horse scoped because there was nothing I could do about the burns BUT use GG in the hopes it might help by keeping the PH of the small intestine as high as possible so it could heal. You make the stomach has less acid, then less acid moves down the line and the secretin and buffers can do a better job.
Now you trot off and spend a few years getting your masters degree studying intestinal PH in equines and maybe a few hours reading the posts that answer all your questions and then come back and we can discuss it. If you have already done all that, then we can still discuss it, but not if you do not even bother to catch up to what I have already posted.
Let me try in really small simple words for you. PH goes way down in the stomach, Then it gets buffered before it travels further in the digestive system. The low PH in the stomach might be enough to protect that area, but the buffers cannot overcome the extra high PH as it passes into the small intestine where it needs to be high again. So it gets tempered some, but still shoots something caustic into the small intestine because it is pumped up with more buffers as it passes through. The stomach has protective lining. The small intestine does not.
As usual, if someone sees that I am a lawyer, they jump to the conclusion that I was born one and its is the only education or experience in my life. Its just a job, its not who I am or the only thing I know. Then they talk the way they think lawyers talk and try and sound smart. Try being smart and sounding stupid. You might solve more problems that way.
Here is a simple solution–DO NOT USE ZG when there is an alternative that works just as well and does not burn. And please, if your horse gets burned go ahead and sign the gag release. My experience was before they started that up and I have no obligation to stop taking about it. You get your Vet bill paid, I’ll keep running my mouth!
And if you have read one of these threads and go out and burn your horse anyway, then WTF is wrong with you?
Please post a link to the thread that proves through testing ZG causes colonic ulcers. I don’t have the time or inclination to read every thread you’ve ever started or commented on.
I have explained how and why it burns certain horses and not others since the first day I started on COTH. You apparently are too lazy to stupid to read those posts before you start spouting off.
Apparently. I’ve read some of your HYPOTHESES and have yet to see any facts backing them up. If I pour Draino (pH = 12) on my hand and leave it there I will get a chemical burn. So will you and every other carbon unit.
Now, I have taken a basic chemistry class and the other 6 basic chemistry classes plus all that silly biochemical nonsense in grad school where I did all the silly stuff with internal PH meters and and wrote those papers that get quoted on COTH all the time. I predicted the results that were found for the person who revived this thread. You did what?
“Silly biochemical nonsense”? What can I say?
So I put forward a theory, had it tested, backed it up with reasons and science and it was tested and showed exactly what I expected. You know, science.
Expecting a proton pump inhibitor like Gastrogard to heal a colonic ulcer is neither logical nor scientific.
The next question would be that of sheer numbers. How many of the horses that were burned also have those ulcers? Its really expensive to find out and not all Vets have a scope that goes that far back, so unless the manufacturer wants to test it we might never know.
Colonic ulcers are not diagnosed with gastroscopes in the horse.
I did not have my horse scoped because there was nothing I could do about the burns BUT use GG in the hopes it might help by keeping the PH of the small intestine as high as possible so it could heal. You make the stomach has less acid, then less acid moves down the line and the secretin and buffers can do a better job.
If the hypothosized burns were caused by a caustic, as you claim, your argument makes little sense.
Now you trot off and spend a few years getting your masters degree studying intestinal PH in equines and maybe a few hours reading the posts that answer all your questions and then come back and we can discuss it. If you have already done all that, then we can still discuss it, but not if you do not even bother to catch up to what I have already posted.
I don’t know of a single soul with a master’s degree in equine pH. Do you?
Let me try in really small simple words for you. PH goes way down in the stomach, Then it gets buffered before it travels further in the digestive system.
LOL! Do you mean the hydrogen ions? I was unaware pH travelled.
The low PH in the stomach might be enough to protect that area, but the buffers cannot overcome the extra high PH as it passes into the small intestine where it needs to be high again. So it gets tempered some, but still shoots something caustic into the small intestine because it is pumped up with more buffers as it passes through. The stomach has protective lining. The small intestine does not.
You missed your calling as a physiology instructor. :winkgrin:
And if you have read one of these threads and go out and burn your horse anyway, then WTF is wrong with you?
Please explain in simple terms so a dummy like me can understand how a substance with the same pH as Draino (according to you) doesn’t burn all horses. Thank you.
Sorry, have to chuckle, equinelaw, when the last line of your post is ‘wtf is wrong with you?’ And your tagline reads ‘always be SUPER nice to EVERYONE!!!’. Lol.
Now, I’ve only used zg a handful of times, and have had no reactions that I know of. That being said, if I avoided everything that someone else or their animals had had problems with, my horses, dogs, cats, child and myself would be bubble wrapped, locked up inside and hooked up to oxygen tanks 24/7. Realistically, that’s not going to work too well. Best any of us can do is take our own experiences, and the word of caution from others, and make the best decision possible. I plan on continuing to do just that, and if that earns me a ‘WTF?’ Then so be it.
[QUOTE=rcloisonne;4308529]
Please post a link to the thread that proves through testing ZG causes colonic ulcers. I don’t have the time or inclination to read every thread you’ve ever started or commented on.
Apparently. I’ve read some of your HYPOTHESES and have yet to see any facts backing them up. If I pour Draino (pH = 12) on my hand and leave it there I will get a chemical burn. So will you and every other carbon unit.
“Silly biochemical nonsense”? What can I say?
Expecting a proton pump inhibitor like Gastrogard to heal a colonic ulcer is neither logical nor scientific.
Colonic ulcers are not diagnosed with gastroscopes in the horse.
If the hypothosized burns were caused by a caustic, as you claim, your argument makes little sense.
I don’t know of a single soul with a master’s degree in equine pH. Do you?
LOL! Do you mean the hydrogen ions? I was unaware pH travelled.
You missed your calling as a physiology instructor. :winkgrin:
Please explain in simple terms so a dummy like me can understand how a substance with the same pH as Draino (according to you) doesn’t burn all horses. Thank you.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I am sorry. I thought you had read at least this thread. Or at least the last page of this thread. Or at least the post that revived this thread. I did not realize you had not read anything at all when you decided you were so clever.
See post above. Owner suspects there will be ulcers and has horse scoped. They see ulcers. I predicted they would many threads and posts ago. I have no idea why you think everybody is lying to you. That is evidence that backs up my hypothesis, but its only 1 horse. Want to pay for the rest yourself?
Do you think the Vet did not scope that horse or do you think the Vet could not tell the stomach from the opening to the small intestine?
Why would there be a study for me to tell you to read? Who would have done that study? As far as I know from these threads n=1 right now. Would you like to pay for a study and pay Vets to travel around scoping horses that get burned by ZG? Otherwise its going to have to be 1 horse at a time based on people wiling to pay for a Vet to look.
Is there some reason you think people are making all this up? Thread after thread on many BB and lots of Vets agreeing.
Do you need closed captioning for the sarcasm impaired too?
The symptoms of ulcers in the small intestine are well established and pretty easy to recognize. I am sure you know what they are.
If my argument that it is caused by a caustic agent makes little sense to you, then you are either stupid or just being an ass. Can you be more specific as to why it is not a caustic agent and propose some other valid explanation that you can back up with some testing and results? Do you think its magic? Perhaps a hex put upon the horses for unlikely owners?
In the presence of water. In the presence of water. In the presence of water. Its not caustic unless in the presence of too much water. You can rub all the ZG you want on yourself and it does not burn, but if you mix it with a bunch of water the PH goes up.
Please, so us all a favor and go out and try it! Mix some ZG with water at about 20:1 and rub it on your mouth. Tell us how it feels. No way I am going to do that with something that tested above 12, but since you do not believe its true, you should have to problem proving its wrong. K? Then let us know how it all works!
You do not believe there is any problem at all or you just want to try and stop anyone from trying to figure out out or help prevent more burns? What is your goal here? Just to be nasty and not add to the discussion at all except to try and be a second class Thomas 1 wanna be?
[QUOTE=Timex;4308533]
Sorry, have to chuckle, equinelaw, when the last line of your post is ‘wtf is wrong with you?’ And your tagline reads ‘always be SUPER nice to EVERYONE!!!’. Lol.
Now, I’ve only used zg a handful of times, and have had no reactions that I know of. That being said, if I avoided everything that someone else or their animals had had problems with, my horses, dogs, cats, child and myself would be bubble wrapped, locked up inside and hooked up to oxygen tanks 24/7. Realistically, that’s not going to work too well. Best any of us can do is take our own experiences, and the word of caution from others, and make the best decision possible. I plan on continuing to do just that, and if that earns me a ‘WTF?’ Then so be it. :)[/QUOTE]
Eh, yeah, it supposed to make you chuckle. Its in response to other hypocritical tag lines that drive my up the wall:)
There is a whole world between extremes. There is just no reason to take this risk since other products cost the same (or less) and do not have the risk. Its an unnecessary risk. And its not the owner that gets burned, its the horse. The owners feel really bad even when they had no idea it was a risk. I just can’t imagine how someone who was warned and chose to ignore that would feel.
There are just too many people reporting this problem to brush it all off as nonsense. The company that makes the stuff sure treats it as real.
Here are some of the pictures.
Burn is located where wormer was rubbed off. There were no burns of swelling on the other side or where he rubbed it off on his knees.
Burn is the yellow brown spot in the center of the swelling. This was hours after the Vet left and gave him meds to reduce swelling.
Ph tests. The ph went up every time the ratio of ZG/water was changed. At 20:1 it was no longer on the garden kit chart. It was up to 10 on the pool test kit chart. Then it turned a color that was not on the chart. Please remember water is about 7 and the ph started at below 6. It ended up above 10 and still had room to go up, but there are no pictures of the ph meter.
Now, horse is in pain and miserable and would not drink water unless forced. Vet bill was near $500+GG. Horse had a few very bad days, 24 hours when he seemed to be having a neurological reaction, and had trouble eating for days. I did that to him. Why would you want to do this to your horse? I ran out of time and could not post all the pictures that show how it turned dark brown and then started to heal or the pictures that clearly show a horse in pain, but just having your horse afraid to drink water is quite enough for me. Skin is already peeling off in just 5 hours. That is what the strings of tan colored stuff is. His skin shredding off.
http://s469.photobucket.com/albums/rr52/equinelaw/ZG/
Please feel free to post alternative explanations, but deal with what has been shown and not speculation or nonsense. I just did the tests. There may be another explanation, but it has to account for the results and for the fact this has happened to many horses and many different batches and the company treats it as real since they have policies and warnings and pay for Vet bills. So far people just say it is not true, but nobody has suggested a better theory or testing method or explained to me why the ph is so high.
Needless to say, there are no photos of duodenal ulcers.
[QUOTE=CoolMoney;4308081]
I will use Equimax instead from now on, which has no known complaints so far, and does the same job. I feel horrible to have done this to my baby horse.[/QUOTE]
One of my horses is still recovering from a burn on his lower lip that showed up the day after I dewormed him with Equimax. I can’t say with certainty that that’s what caused it, but I don’t think I’ll use it again.
[QUOTE=chaltagor;4308623]
One of my horses is still recovering from a burn on his lower lip that showed up the day after I dewormed him with Equimax. I can’t say with certainty that that’s what caused it, but I don’t think I’ll use it again.[/QUOTE]
Really? That’s bad news. That is the first report I have read about Equimax burning. Crap. I wonder how many others there have been that nobody started threads about anywhere?
Did you happen to see if there was a warning in the EM box?
Normally I’m with you on this.
However, in this particular case, Equimax contains more praziquantel per dose, and does not have the problems ZG does.
So why use a product that DOES have a problem, when there is one that does the exact same thing that does NOT have that problem?
Not to mention it’s been admitted by Merial, and can be found on their site? Somewhere - it’s not easy, I think it’s posted in this thread somewhere though.
[QUOTE=JB;4308782]
Normally I’m with you on this.
However, in this particular case, Equimax contains more praziquantel per dose, and does not have the problems ZG does.
So why use a product that DOES have a problem, when there is one that does the exact same thing that does NOT have that problem?[/QUOTE]
That is my feeling as well. I chose equimax for that reason years ago long before I had ever heard of the burns. It was right around the time we started hearing about deaths from quest so I was looking for an alternative to that.
Wow, you are the first, of all the boards I’ve been on, to have reported this issue.
