Ace for the rider?
Draft crosses rock. :yes:
Ace works for me…I find myself screaming less after my injection but I prefer NOT to get it in the neck…I prefer the butt! It wears off on me in time to receive a flask at the first long check thank god!
Riding impaired rocks! 
Re Cleveland Bays-- I can SEE the wheels turning in my 1/2 Cleveland Bay mare 's head. I once caught her herding me so I’d keep away from the other horse. Perhaps she’s “got cow”???
She is too smart for her own good!
CBs tend to “plant” instead of bolt when something spooky appears-the main reason I wanted one-or two-or three. So, I have a 1/2 bred, a 1/4 bred, and new foal will be a 3/8.
Question for Acertainsmile
Could you tell me the proportions of dorm and ace…and, I suppose this is a silly question, but do you give it IM, orally or IV? I’ve never used any chemistry before, but I have a very nice horse who is very good at home, but can blow up at the drop of a hat. I don’t want him to dump me when we are out…because I don’t want him flying around on his own and potentially getting hurt, so I am considering trying something. Thanks, fg
“farmgirl
Question for Acertainsmile
Could you tell me the proportions of dorm and ace…and, I suppose this is a silly question, but do you give it IM, orally or IV? I’ve never used any chemistry before, but I have a very nice horse who is very good at home, but can blow up at the drop of a hat. I don’t want him to dump me when we are out…because I don’t want him flying around on his own and potentially getting hurt, so I am considering trying something. Thanks, fg”
You should find a person who knows what they are doing. People do not ace/torb/dorm or any combo of in the field because the horses blow up at the drop of a hat. THEY STILL CAN blow at the drop of a hat on dorb/dorm/ace or and combo of! YOU are going to get hurt if you think you can keep him from doing that with DRUGS! Hopefully your vet will not sell it to you! Sorry just by your post YOU have me worried as there is big difference in possible drugging a hot fit horse to nock the edge of until you have put a few miles on them at the trot and canter and drugging a horse “THAT blows at the drop of the hat”
I’ve been told by a very experienced (over twenty five year MFH that we all know and respect) that ACE can prevent tying up and that she uses it on most of her horses, both staff and field. Usually 0.25-0.5ml. (a very, very low dose)
Makes sense since it prevents that early washing up that race horses due which predisposes to tying up, relaxes muscles and increases blood to the kidneys.
I think I know the MFH in question too, a good friend.
And I’m aware of the ‘prevent tying up’ theory. But I’ve also hunted hard on a variety of horses since 1971 and never had a problem with tying up. A friend did have that problem with her qh mare, but IME it’s rare. So one could argue that such ‘routine’ proactive use of Ace is kind of like treating every cow on the ranch with antibiotics to prevent the occasional bug- not a good idea. Personally, if I had a horse that had a problem with tying up, I’d rather discover it and treat it than mask it for someone else to find out down the road.
I had a friend back east who routinely hauled a number of horses to meets, and ‘pretended’ to ace certain horses, so that their riders would think the horses were on ace. Worked like a charm. Riders were relaxed, assuming horse was drugged, and so horse was relaxed (but really drug free).
[QUOTE=Beverley;3073793]
I think I know the MFH in question too, a good friend.
And I’m aware of the ‘prevent tying up’ theory. But I’ve also hunted hard on a variety of horses since 1971 and never had a problem with tying up. A friend did have that problem with her qh mare, but IME it’s rare. So one could argue that such ‘routine’ proactive use of Ace is kind of like treating every cow on the ranch with antibiotics to prevent the occasional bug- not a good idea. Personally, if I had a horse that had a problem with tying up, I’d rather discover it and treat it than mask it for someone else to find out down the road.
I had a friend back east who routinely hauled a number of horses to meets, and ‘pretended’ to ace certain horses, so that their riders would think the horses were on ace. Worked like a charm. Riders were relaxed, assuming horse was drugged, and so horse was relaxed (but really drug free).[/QUOTE]
I like the placebo idea, very clever.
I have noticed with my TB, who has tied up in the past that 0.25ml given prior to trailering from our overnight stable to wherever we are hunting from (usually a 20 minute ride or so) will make for a very nice start to our morning. The stuff has worn off by the time the hounds are cast and we are good to go without all the antics of a fresh, OTTB, 6 hour gotta-go-somewhere TB.
Hobbles also make a huge difference with him. I hobble while saddling and they have almost a sedative affect. Don’t know why and if it’s only on him but without hobbles he works himself into a sweaty frenzy pawing the ground, with hobbles he stands and munches from his hay bag.
Usually I only ace the first and possibly the second day of a big hunt. Again, 0.25ml, horse is 16.1 hands and weighs about 11-1200lbs. I give him an IM shot at least 20 min prior to starting to tack up (before he’s even thought about getting excited and before getting on the trailer)).
If we are overnighting and hunting from the place where we sleep at I will ace one hour prior to going out. Then, start tacking up. The key is to get it in very early, long before they even think about being excited. Takes a little edge off and is practically worn off by the time the hounds are cast. Then I don’t have to worry a bit about stumbling or any other drug effects. I’ve seen overdrugged horses out in the field a lot and it’s very scarey. The worst is watching the drug wear off halfway through the hunt on a horse that doesn’t belong out there to begin with! I stay far away from any horse that looks like that!
Methocarbamol is a muscle relaxer I’ve considered using. It’s legal in USEF and gives a nice calming effect when given orally or IM. I may try some this summer on some trail rides or just out exercising hounds and see what I think. (it’s the same as robaxin for humans) .
I do carry about 3ml of ace and 10ml of banamine with me for emergencies in the field. The banamine is for pain (broken leg, etc but never, ever use for tying up as it can cause kidney damage). The ace is given IV full amount if the horse is having an acute tying up episode. I have used the ace on other people’s horses and the banamine as well. The banamine is always, always given IV. If you don’t feel comfortable finding a vein on a sick or injured horse don’t even carry it!!!
As a doctor I feel very comfortable giving these medications and then letting the vet know time/dose of what was done in the field for first aid.
[QUOTE=Weatherford;2954447]
The problem with ace is that horses can’t LEARN when they are aced (medical fact) - so giving them some to help them when starting isn’t really helping them (despite how it appears to you!) Ace dulls the horses’ reactions - thus, if a horse is truly afraid, it will not be able to handle that fear in such a way that it lessens - what they will remember is the fear as much as the “good” experience.
We used to hack the greenies to the meet so the horses would lose that “edge” and settle more quickly. If the meet were far away, we’d trailer part way there. It worked!
I have one horse to whom I give some oral ace to clip - but that is only because he had a bad experience and there is no other /better tranq to give him. :([/QUOTE]
Weatherford, BS! I can’t believe you said that. I have used ace on young horses at first show/first mount/first anything for as long as I can remember, and they ALWAYS learn at least something, if not “the” lesson of the day. I don’t know what medical “fact” you are referring to, but I’ll take my anecdotal evidence any day. They can, and do, learn on low doses of ace.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;2955074]
You guys seriously terrify me. :eek: I can’t imagine riding an even slightly tranqed horse - EVER, much less in the hunt field, over uneven ground.
Several of my youngsters are hunting. One went this year for the first time. His amateur owner, who had only previously hunted herself about 10 times the previous year took him out. Not a problem. They have gone out about 5 times now. No drugs. These are not horses in heavy work. They are ridden about once or twice a week other than hunting.
A rider tried to put ear muffs into one of my horses at a hunter show once. He started bucking after fences. He kept up the bucking at home, and threw some major fits. Removed the ear muffs, and he was back to his quiet self. Some horses really dislike them.[/QUOTE]
I defy you to tell a horse with 1/2 - 1 cc of ace from a naturally quiet horse (a horse you don’t already know). Can’t be done. They are just as alert, careful, don’t stumble, just don’t panic over every little thing.
Do you REALLY think people would tear across the countryside, and have done for forever, on a drug that was dangerous??? These people (for the most part) aren’t stupid!
I don’t think it’s BS at all. Not too long ago, a friend bought a hunter, known to have been schooled on Ace, but she prefers to ride drug-free. The horse did not have the knowledge base it should have given its mileage.
And, more than 30 years ago, I was part of a group working on a reschooling project at college. The horse was a former AHSA working hunter of the year. He was trained and shown entirely ‘on the needle.’ So, when drug testing started, his connections decided he was done and donated him to our program. We restarted him from scratch, and it took us two years, but the horse became a wonderful ‘sober’ hunter, in the ring and on outside courses, as I recall we even took him hunting. During that time frame, I witnessed a horrific crash in the show ring by an aced horse. It could be that his rider slipped him too heavy a dose, but the poor horse was so stoned he just went through a rolltop- something I know he would not have done had he been drug free, I’d watched him school many times.
So, you see, my anecdotal database is quite different from yours. I know plenty of people who use ace liberally, so hey, if it works for you, go for it. But I would bet you a beer that if you lost the ace, you’d be surprised at how much more quickly your young horses would progress.
Anecdotal is now backed up with science, as stated above. They can learn with or without, some better than others either way, some need a new start either way. My objection was to the BLANKET statement that they don’t learn on it. That is the BS part. Your info says they don’t, mine says they do, so to each his own, but no blanket statement saying they don’t.
Oh, and I certainly don’t recommend, nor use, ace across the board. Actually, it isn’t necessary often. But, I am confident in the results I get when I do use it for a specific purpose.
Interesting. Your response to Weatherford suggests that you use it routinely:
“I have used ace on young horses at first show/first mount/first anything for as long as I can remember, and they ALWAYS learn at least something, if not “the” lesson of the day.”
I agree to the possibility that it can be useful for specific scenarios on a limited basis. But in 42 years of owning and training horses, I haven’t ever felt a need to try it. Nor would I want to. I want to know exactly what the horse is thinking at all times. I’ve found that giving a horse a good foundation, the right combination of discipline and trust, and not imposing any deadlines for a horse to achieve set goals has worked for me. If a horse has a meltdown after a fair trial at any discipline, from hunting to western pleasure to barrel racing, I believe that the horse just needs to be given a job more to its tastes. I like what Beverly Sills said some years back- there are no short cuts to anyplace worth goingl
<I’ve found that giving a horse a good foundation, the right combination of discipline and trust, and not imposing any deadlines for a horse to achieve set goals has worked for me.>
A little off subject (ace) but I was thrilled this week when dear daughter and her husband were down from South Dakota. They wanted to target practice with their “Little Eagle” 40 caliber pistol. I thought perfect proofing practice for my yearling hunter in waiting! The target was set and I held the yearling 25’ away from where they stood. With the first shot he raised his head 6" and forked his ears forward and did not move a hoof!!! From then on he occasionally looked in the direction of the shot but mostly stood there w/ a cocked hoof. YES!
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