Do you practice Rollkur?

[Karoline]

mbm why even bother? Other then finding the odd turn of phrase intriguing because it has a faint echo of some other COTH posters, there is nothing to gain. With Donny K, we are in high school again. We are cliquish, we think we are special and we misspell the authors we are supposed to have read with great abandon.

Definitely someone who made other kids life miserable and strides the great corridors of life thinking they are still hot shi$$ sharing approximative half-truths couched in great superiority for the easy absorption of even less well read or educated sycophants all panting with joy at being part of the club.

Of course, I think Donny K is as real as the golden goose. Really the by-product of one or more of the more malicious posters here.

Uh no thank you.

Sort of sad really.

[Coreene]

DRR, unfortunately it is difficult for some to understand that Sjef’s LDR system is something that you don’t learn overnight, that it is a training system that works and that it is similar to LDR riding that has been used by leading European dressage and showjumping riders for years. We all know that no horse will be a 10 in each movement, but sadly some cannot see the forest for the trees and need to point fingers at a training system they know little to nothing about. But good on ya for trying to explain it to them. :yes:

[naturalequus]

Wow, what a variety of perceptions of the method!!

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;4648505]
I actually think he DOES look relaxed, but not completely in the total “classical” manner (spine parallel to the track of the movement in a PERFECT manner). His head is cocked to the side and I find that one fault bothers me at this level with this high a caliber of rider and horse. I feel that if the rider is going to ask so much of this horse then the long term soundness will be jeopardized with this particular fault. It is not good for the spine over time, especially the neck.

The other issues I have I do not believe would be detrimental to the long term soundness like the one I mentioned above. However, I do think the excessive muscling of the neck has begun to effect his abilty to move freely at the walk and the probably the other non-collected gaits.

I was taught that too much collection will eventually create early unsoundness over time.[/QUOTE]

Some of the development you see two years later is called maturity and in some stallions, secondary sexual characteristics.

Ever looked to the young stallions in the SRS and then as they are older, how those features change?

There is just so much remodeling you may accomplish with training the body, other is inherent to how some horses are made.

That very well could be a logical explanation for some stallions becoming, as they mature and age, a little bit heavier in front and lighter behind, comparatively speaking, to the younger picture of the same individual.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Karoline;4648632]
mbm why even bother? Other then finding the odd turn of phrase intriguing because it has a faint echo of some other COTH posters, there is nothing to gain. With Donny K, we are in high school again. We are cliquish, we think we are special and we misspell the authors we are supposed to have read with great abandon.

Definitely someone who made other kids life miserable and strides the great corridors of life thinking they are still hot shi$$ sharing approximative half-truths couched in great superiority for the easy absorption of even less well read or educated sycophants all panting with joy at being part of the club.

Of course, I think Donny K is as real as the golden goose. Really the by-product of one or more of the more malicious posters here.

Uh no thank you.

Sort of sad really.[/QUOTE]

I think that maybe this time you are missing the mark.

There are some posters that definitely show they don’t know what they are speaking about and it shows.
No clique is ignoring them as who they are, but some are ignoring them because they don’t know what they speak of.
You can only point that out so many times to someone that doesn’t get the message and keeps butting in, when it should be listening.

Sorry, there is a time to say your piece, but when others explain why you don’t get it, maybe you ought to listen, not keep trying to show that you really don’t know what you are talking about and are still not getting it.

The smart ones learn from that realization, doesn’t take long to sink in.
The rest, well, they just keep showing they just don’t get it and with that attitude, it is going to be a loooong learning curve, I am afraid.

Happens to the best of us, it’s part of live and learn.
How we handle that situation is very telling to teachers.:yes:

[siegi_b]

Bluey - you are my idol!

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;4648748]
Bluey - you are my idol! :)[/QUOTE]

Oh, thank you, thank you.

Looking down, I am ashamed to say, I have clay feet, very, very soft clay feet.:eek:
I too have dug myself into a deeper hole at times, thinking I knew what I was talking about and not realizing how much I was missing.
The voice of experience here and I am afraid, not getting smarter about it myself.
Sad, is it, to find clay feet on our idols, so sad…

Seriously, I hope that I have made it clear that I don’t know ANYTHING at all about RK, am winging any ideas of it with what I know from before RK, BRK, so to say.

I am afraid that many here are like I am, blind and trying to describe the elephant RK has become by touch and just not getting even close to what it is, what it does and why AND some that know are not being listened to in the zest of some to run with their distaste for RK, that they can’t support with believable facts.

I do find RK intruiging, am learning much from others more familiar with RK than I am and, like always, don’t like when some good, honest trainers are dragged thru the mud as they are here, without real cause, on a training techniques debate.:no:
Honestly, no horses have been shown to be hurt by RK, not only that, some are winning at the top using RK, have been for years now, if I understand this right, so cries of “abuse!” are a red herring here.
I don’t like injustices, on principle, even if I have to dig myself deeper to point that out.:yes:

[ridgeback]

Yep Bluey we just don’t know what were talking about just like we don’t know anything about our food industry killing us. I wouldn’t expect anyone who thinks it’s fine how our food animals are treated to agree with someone like DA on RK. That is your answer for everything…they must not understand or they are just a novice. I’m not against RK but when some day it gets banned in warm-up or dressage gets booted out of the olympics I promise not to say told you so.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=ridgeback;4648770]
Yep Bluey we just don’t know what were talking about just like we don’t know anything about our food industry killing us. I wouldn’t expect anyone who thinks it’s fine how our food animals are treated to agree with someone like DA on RK. That is your answer for everything…they must not understand or they are just a novice. I’m not against RK but when some day it gets banned in warm-up or dressage gets booted out of the olympics I promise not to say told you so.[/QUOTE]

What does the food industry have to do with any discussion here?
These RK debates are getting more and more crazy.:lol:
Here, read a little bit more about food, if that is something you care about seriously, as I really think many don’t know enough, sorry to disagree with you on this:

http://www.cgfi.org/2010/01/20/greenpeace-opts-for-millions-of-blind-kids-by-dennis-t-avery/

Remember, YOU brought this topic up, don’t blame me.

Now, on to this debate here, do you realize that you are complaining that I am pointing out that some are not getting it by saying that I can’t “get” where some posters come from?:winkgrin:

I have said that the powers that be may or not ban RK and will do so for many reasons, not necessarily because RK is “bad”.

Maybe they will choose expedience, to ban a controversy, over studying RK and keep hearing all the background noise from the gallery about it?

In this RK controversy, I don’t think anyone can “win” and tell others “I told you so”, because it will be a pyrrhic victory for all.:no:

[Bats79]

[QUOTE=mbm;4648571]
just for clarities sake - this is what DRR said:

see, the problem is that what you have written is what we have been told for years… unfortunately it isnt what is shown in the videos and what people see IRL. if what was happening was really gentle and easy as you say - folks wouldn’t be so upset.

however, even you agree that pulling and force is bad riding… and yet - look at the videos i posted. do you not agree that is bad riding as you describe it?

look, i am not a naive person… i know that training is hard etc. but it shouldn’t be brutal. even you agree with that.

i think if you really read my posts you would see that i have a fairly “moderate” position about rollkur (eta, moderate for an anti, that is… ). i dont agree it is abuse, altho i do agree that is shouldn’t be part of dressage…[/QUOTE]

I too am waiting to see some video of “rollkur” that shows all the significant markers that DRR is talking about. Maybe if we could be shown some “correct” TRAINING in rollkur we might be less harsh in our condemnation. When the only visual evidence of the training technique are so gross that even the supporters say it is “bad riding” how are we supposed to think anything other than it is BAD RIDING.

If the “good rollkur” remains something that is only practiced behind closed doors then how is it to be anything other than condemned?

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Bats79;4648943]
I too am waiting to see some video of “rollkur” that shows all the significant markers that DRR is talking about. Maybe if we could be shown some “correct” TRAINING in rollkur we might be less harsh in our condemnation. When the only visual evidence of the training technique are so gross that even the supporters say it is “bad riding” how are we supposed to think anything other than it is BAD RIDING.

If the “good rollkur” remains something that is only practiced behind closed doors then how is it to be anything other than condemned?[/QUOTE]

Some have tried to explain, but do you really want someone to post pictures or videos of something everyone is burning at the stake without listening to any reason?
No matter what was posted, the yelling about all that was wrong, if it was there or imagined, would never stop.

When everyone is on a witch hunt, why provide ammunition?:yes:

[egontoast]

It is just about impossible to discuss this rationally because on the one hand you have people who are somewhat open to discussing it from varying perspectives but then there are those people who are completely dogmatic and emotional in their views and will miss no opportunity to attack quite viciously if you don’t completely agree with their view of it.

Unfortunately,that leads to ill considered responses and I have been guilty of so responding to this type of provocation in the past. Hopefully no more since making better use of the ignore button.

I’m guessing 99.9% of those of us who try to be open to different perspectives and are interested in reading about different perspectives have never used rollkur and will likely never use rollkur but because we don’t automatically villify anyone who does use this technique or label it horse abuse we are attacked as PRO- Rolkur, Followers of Rollkur…and other such nonsense.

You only have to go back and read through these threads to see where the nastiness comes from.

[BaroquePony]

Posted by Bluey:

Some have tried to explain, but do you really want someone to post pictures or videos of something everyone is burning at the stake without listening to any reason?
No matter what was posted, the yelling about all that was wrong, if it was there or imagined, would never stop.

When everyone is on a witch hunt, why provide ammunition?:yes:

I would love to see a video of rollkur being used in a manner that looked like it was just another excercise in a balanced training program for the specific horse.

I don’t care what exercise one is using on the horse, it has never been considered intelligent training to do something for more than short periods of time and then relax for a bit and then pick up another set of exercises.

[nhwr]

dressage dodgeball

I too am waiting to see some video of “rollkur” that shows all the significant markers that DRR is talking about.
That will never happen because the people using RK are actually riding, the people with the video cameras are not

Seriously, I know people who are happy to discuss the method with people who are interested in learning about it. Given the choice between riding and banging their heads against the wall by arguing with be people who are only inerested in playing gotcha, they’d rather tack up.

And who could blame them :dead: If that makes one “cliquish”, count me in.

There is little enough time to ride, I’d rather not waste it arguing about something about which no agreement will ever be reached.

[egontoast]

Seriously, I know people who are happy to discuss the method with people who are interested in learning about it. Given the choice between riding and banging their heads against the wall by arguing with be people who are only inerested in playing gotcha, they’d rather tack up.

True. These people are riding and training not worrying about what random people say on the internet.

[Nojacketrequired]

A few times throughout this thread I have read the non-rolkur people state that they want it banned from the warm up.

Are they saying that this is an “out of sight out of mind” issue for them?

And, if they had behind the scenes experience at some of the BIG shows in Europe they’d know that was pointless because there is the warm-up and then there is the PUBLIC warm up. Often two very different things.

NJR

[nhwr]

And can we please stop all the accusations about bullying. People express their ideas with passion and sometimes it gets (inappropriately) personal, but no one is going to reach through the screen and take your lunch money. If it bothers you, use the ignore option.

[CatOnLap]

@Egontoast

It is just about impossible to discuss this rationally because on the one hand you have people who are somewhat open to discussing it from varying perspectives but then there are those people who are completely dogmatic and emotional in their views and will miss no opportunity to attack quite viciously if you don’t completely agree with their view of it.

That is what I have found frustrating in this discussion. The opening post appears to be bait to call out anyone who dares admit to the technique…

possibly in order to tie them to a stake and burn them.

Anyone who actually uses the technique gets called a troll or otherwise unflattering names, and the name callers apparently have not the knowledge to realize that the “troll” knows more than they about dressage.
If you want to argue with a master, learn as much as the master first.

There are a few posts in this thread that have actually given me a more balanced view of the technique in addition to what I have been taught on my own horses and on schoolmasters, about rollkur, by instructors that the world would consider dressage masters.

And frankly, I’d like to know where Don Raphaello is teaching- anywhere on the west coast?

[BaroquePony]

Posted by nhwr:

That will never happen because the people using RK are actually riding, the people with the video cameras are not

I don’t think it is that complicated. The camerman is the camerman and the rider is the rider.

[ridgeback]

:lol:

[QUOTE=egontoast;4649053]
It is just about impossible to discuss this rationally because on the one hand you have people who are somewhat open to discussing it from varying perspectives but then there are those people who are completely dogmatic and emotional in their views and will miss no opportunity to attack quite viciously if you don’t completely agree with their view of it.

Unfortunately,that leads to ill considered responses and I have been guilty of so responding to this type of provocation in the past. Hopefully no more since making better use of the ignore button.

I’m guessing 99.9% of those of us who try to be open to different perspectives and are interested in reading about different perspectives have never used rollkur and will likely never use rollkur but because we don’t automatically villify anyone who does use this technique or label it horse abuse we are attacked as PRO- Rolkur, Followers of Rollkur…and other such nonsense.

You only have to go back and read through these threads to see where the nastiness comes from.[/QUOTE]

With the snow storm coming I needed something to laugh about thank you Egontoast.:lol::lol::lol: