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Do you support Courtney King-Dye?

Archives 2018 World Equestrian Games
#61

[QUOTE=ridgeback;3486605]
What is your point? Yes people are speculating how it could have gotten into his system… Ultrasound is logical considering the heart condition.[/QUOTE]

The remainder of my post got lost in cyberspace and I didn’t bother to re-type it, but the essence was that I am floored that people think that a minute on the internet provided all the explanation anyone would need in this situation. The horse’s connections did not know how it got into the horse’s system, and were trying to figure out how that might have happened. Finding websites stating that the drug is an NSAID does not provide that answer. Nor does a quick review of the FEI rules. The FEI rules just tell you what SHOULD have been done. It does not say anything about possibilities when those rules are not followed, or, the potential scenarios where, despite strict adherence to the rules, the horse comes up positive. It also takes longer than 5 seconds to locate and review all FEI decisions that involve that or similar drugs to try to get an idea of how the horse might have come into contact with it in this situation. And as far as I can tell, most or all of the information that pops up quickly pertaining to the drug has to do with its use in humans, not horses. For equine-related uses, you have to dig a little deeper to find more than passing references to it.

It’s entertaining to see that google is now a substitute for a law degree, a medical degree, and PhDs in all sciences.

I am really amazed by some of the posts as well. I live and breathe investigations, government enforcement actions, and litigation every single day of the week and specialize in crisis management for corporations and high-profile individuals. And I am telling you guys who care to listen that a 5, 10, 15, or 50 second google search is not going to provide a full explanation of what occurred when a horse turns up positive and its connections are unaware of how the drug got into the horse’s system. I cannot believe anyone is even arguing about this – and worse, still, concluding that something is “fishy” based on a snippet of an early press release taken out of context, and without consideration of the entirety of the sentence excerpted!!!

#62

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3486645]
The remainder of my post got lost in cyberspace and I didn’t bother to re-type it, but the essence was that I am floored that people think that a minute on the internet provided all the explanation anyone would need in this situation. The horse’s connections did not know how it got into the horse’s system, and were trying to figure out how that might have happened. Finding websites stating that the drug is an NSAID does not provide that answer. Nor does a quick review of the FEI rules. The FEI rules just tell you what SHOULD have been done. It does not say anything about possibilities when those rules are not followed, or, the potential scenarios where, despite strict adherence to the rules, the horse comes up positive. It also takes longer than 5 seconds to locate and review all FEI decisions that involve that or similar drugs to try to get an idea of how the horse might have come into contact with it in this situation. And as far as I can tell, most or all of the information that pops up quickly pertaining to the drug has to do with its use in humans, not horses. For equine-related uses, you have to dig a little deeper to find more than passing references to it.

I am really amazed by some of the posts as well. [edit] And I am telling you guys who care to listen that a 5, 10, 15, or 50 second google search is not going to provide a full explanation of what occurred when a horse turns up positive and its connections are unaware of how the drug got into the horse’s system. I cannot believe anyone is even arguing about this – and worse, still, concluding that something is “fishy” based on a snippet of an early press release taken out of context, and without consideration of the entirety of the sentence excerpted!!![/QUOTE]

Gotcha thanks for the explanation and I agree…

#63

[QUOTE=ceffyl;3486379]
Did the veterinarian clinic just vanish, a Bettina Hoy moment “But he was in the veterinary clinic in the clothes of a veterinary representative and he came when summoned by the receptionist”?[/QUOTE]

This is OT, but I have seen one case where an insurance company sent someone dressed as a nurse to the critical care unit of a hospital to trawl the hallways and try to get information from people as to whether the insured was really, really sick or not, and, if unable to obtain that information, to try to get the patient to sign a paper allowing him to be released from the hospital (which, under the peculiar facts of that case, would have meant the insurance company had no further coverage obligations from that point forward). Needless to say, that company had a lot of explaining to do when it got sued for wrongfully denying the insured’s claim.

#64

Except for a complete airlock facility, which no competition facilities are, I’m not sure that there is any place in the world where someone couldn’t find a way to sneak in. I heard the security at the stable area was ‘a joke’ and I don’t know how anyone could say for sure what horses weren’t or were getting. Initially I had chuckled at the possibility that someone could have just walked by one of the horses and smeared something on him so he’d fail a drug test. I’m not discounting ANY possibility at this point. I’m not thinking anyone yet knows what happened, but at this point, I’m not sure anything would be a surprise.

#65

No amount of guess work at this time will get to the answer. However alot are sure having fun trying!

My main curiosity is though OK Courtney is claiming never to have heard of Felbinac, fair enough. However Dr Rick Mitchell, Vet to Dressage Team, advises pharmaceuctical companies such as Pfizer, Boerhinger, IDEXX, and lectures on veterinary pharmaceuticals not just in the USA but in Canada and Europe where Felbinac is WIDELY available, not always needing prescription mainly as Taxam Gel or Foam, but also in other topical applicaitons manufactured in Japan with a company that colaborates with Pfizer. So who is the collective “We” in her press release? And why did it take Dr Rick Mitchell (if he was part of the “We”) or other team vets or whoever all day on the internet to find out what Felbinac is and what a NSAID does - the lab at Sha Tin could have told them without even having to look it up.

#66

Great,
be an armchair quarterback on Monday morning.
You were not there, most of you don’t have that level of experience.
You don’t know every fact, you are reacting to press releases that are obviously carefully worded with information excluded for good reason (i.e. until the hearing takes place, everything is not known).

I think the Peanut Gallery approach to who was “lame”, who was “drugged”, hiding behind semantics and “seems to, appeared to” is worst part of this thread.

I am glad to be learning so much from the legal experts here, as it gives insight into the hearing process and precedents. I am glad to learn what the drug is, what it is for. Those are facts. The rest is inuendo.

I have no first-hand experience working with Ms. King-Dye, however I have been along side her team at shows, have watched her, competed against her (always a groan when I see her on my class list ) and I have NEVER seen her be anything but thorough, careful and conservative for her horse, thoughtful, fair and hard-working.

No one has a crystal ball to see what could happen. If she followed advice of the experts (i.e. vets, Chef d’equipe, clinic in question), acted responsibly to the owners and the horse, and somehow something happened that she could not explain (who has not had weird crap happen to them?), how can she be judged negatively by us? Who of us is so perfect in all we have made decisions on, that we can make that call on someone who has done/seen/learned more on this level of competition than any of us?

She deserves better than that from this group. Objective discussions to learn of what the situation is, what it could mean is one thing. Speculating on a rider’s actions, whether the competency or integrity of the decisions made, should end.

Perhaps if we were all in a similar situation (like that will ever happen) might let us feel differently. “Walk a mile in the other’s shoes”. Who of us has been accused falsely of something. It feels like @*#?&$. Let’s not do this to our team rider, please. She deserves better than that.

AMEN Sister!

#67

[QUOTE=Sister Margarita;3486476]

She deserves better than that from this group. Objective discussions to learn of what the situation is, what it could mean is one thing. Speculating on a rider’s actions, whether the competency or integrity of the decisions made, should end. …
Let’s not do this to our team rider, please. She deserves better than that.[/QUOTE]

DITTO and THANK YOU for saying it so well. They all deserve better than this!

#68

I think the Peanut Gallery approach to who was “lame”, who was “drugged”, hiding behind semantics and “seems to, appeared to” is worst part of this thread.

The ones who didn’t see that Brentina was lame better start a life far away from horses.

#69

[QUOTE=freestyle2music;3487106]
The ones who didn’t see that Brentina was lame better start a life far away from horses.[/QUOTE]

Would you suggest to the judging panel who did not stop the test, vets who examined her before and after, do so?

#70

[QUOTE=Sister Margarita;3487215]
Would you suggest to the judging panel who did not stop the test, vets who examined her before and after, do so?[/QUOTE]

I have explained this already several times, including judge comments, slow motions etc…

#71

I hope this can all get straightened out for CKD sake. Their was no intention on her behalf of drugging the horse and they both gave it their all at the Olympics.
It’s great to see a horse can recover and be competable at such high level so quickly after a conversion.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if Myth had suffered from Atrium Fibrillation or other heart irregularity in the past and been converted before or whether this was his first conversion in Hong Kong?
(I ask purely out of own intrest as I own a converted A-fibber myself.) Thx.

As far as ultrasound is regarded, I’d say it would be highly suprising if they did not ultrasound Myth prior to conversion.

#72

I am a huge CKD fan and I think she did what she had to do.
Some of you are not taking into consideration that she does not own the horse in question and there are other people who make decisions for her. She is not the only one calling the shots. She is a paid trainer to this horse and has to do what others tell her to do sometimes. Any of you that train, know exactly what Im talking about. I think from listening to her and watching her, she is a very politically correct person who tries to please people.

I honestly dont know her, but I have watched her ride, listen to her explain her training techniques and why she does things. I do not feel in any way she is an abusive or ill hearted person. She knows the horses limits, she asks only what they can offer and her horses are sound.

I stand with CKD on what she did. I have no ill feelings at all for what happened and still look up to her and would trust her with anything I had on the farm. I think a vet mistake was made, protocols were not followed and now she is paying the price of the insults and crap here on boards like this.

Here is a young woman who has literally spent her LIFE training for her Olympic day. WHY on earth would she take a risk (she is not dumb people to facts) to endanger that. CKD has been showing since she was a child, she knows the rules. She knew all the horses would be tested. Think about it… she would not have done this on her own doing and knowingly!!! Come on ppl!!! It was a friggin mistake that a vet made trying to deciper the drug rules at the last minute… that is my theory.

As for CDK, she is a gracious and talented rider who I have no doubt we will see in the top standings for a long time.

I have the upmost respect for her… so yes, SLC, to anwser your question.

#73

I don’t know what thread you are reading but I haven’t read where anyone is bashing her:confused::confused:

#74

STF : I keep trying not to repsond but this sentence…

" Think about it… she would not have done this on her own doing and knowingly!!! Come on ppl!!! It was a friggin mistake that a vet made trying to deciper the drug rules at the last minute… that is my theory."

My theory : Someone within CKD team rubbed something on Myth’s legs. NOT KNOWING it had something that would test positive in it…

I have been supporting CKD and I have looked at everything that has been brought to our attention; from this forum,to researching all the info on Ultrasound gel theory, from information from friends whom were at Hong Kong and were in the clinic ( friend of mine is on the Canadian Eventing team), to going back and reading press releases directly from CKD about the health and soundness of Myth, to knowing and repsecting Dr.Mitchell, to knowing that CKD spents months in Europe this past year ( so the theory about the substance not being offered in America theory)

Listen, I am not saying she or her team did this with the knowledge that it would test positive or was an illegal substance…but as you say " Come on ppl"

And you are right, we all make mistakes, but this is a mistake she will never forget …:frowning:

#75

I think you are making a HUGE assumption that it was a “mistake” on her part. The horse could have been accidentally contaminated in any number of different ways not involving an intentional use of a medication by the handlers. One should always wait at least until the outcome of a hearing before engaging in reputation damaging speculation. There but for the grace of god go any of us. :no:

#76

I think that the team would have been INCREDIBLY stupid to have knowingly sent a lame horse and a horse with a serious heart condition to the ring.

I think Bretina just had a really bad day. I think CKD took a calculated risk competing her horse- but she performed very well which leads me to believe that the horse seemed well in practice sessions etc. The “doping”- who knows. Maybe she did use some anti-inflammatory gel on the horse. But I have to believe that if you coupled the illness plus lameness needing treatment- she would not have performed very well.

I think to be at that level, you need to take calculated risks- which is what both riders did- and this time it did not pay off for either. I do not think they are an embarassment.

#77

Electric Horseman: I still SUPPORT CKD. I am just giving my theory, like many others are doing. What I stated is FAR FROM a “reputation damaging speculation”. It will take FAR more than this Olympics to damage CKD reputation…But I do think someone ( not just blaming her )within her team slipped up.

#78

On what evidence is your theory based?

If it is not based on any evidence, then your opinion is simply speculation that may do harm to the reputation of the horse’s connections.

I am not meaning to single you out, there are lots of folks here who are forming an opinion that is not based on any evidence whatsoever. Theories are fine as a starting point to do further investigation, but to form an opinion that is not based on any evidence whatsoever is simply bias. In other words, you would never make it into the jury box because you have formed an opinion before the evidence is presented. :no:

#79

[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;3492865]
On what evidence is your theory based?

If it is not based on any evidence, then your opinion is simply speculation that may do harm to the reputation of the horse’s connections.

I am not meaning to single you out, there are lots of folks here who are forming an opinion that is not based on any evidence whatsoever. Theories are fine as a starting point to do further investigation, but to form an opinion that is not based on any evidence whatsoever is simply bias. In other words, you would never make it into the jury box because you have formed an opinion before the evidence is presented. :no:[/QUOTE]

The reality is all the riders including jumping can just shrug their shoulders and say I don’t know how it happened. I don’t think anything will be proven one way or the other so it will be up to the individual to decide for themselves.

#80

In my eyes, CKD did nothing wrong and is getting punished by the “oh it will never be forgot now” syndrome.
I dont agree with that and anyone who watches her ride and listens to her teach the horses would see, that is not her M.O.
I fully support her and hope all of this fades away quicky. She will be back in the Olympic ring eventually and everything will have moved on by then.

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