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Does anyone use the perfect prep training day formula?

Hunter/Jumper
#41

Show Prep

I’m not sure if I’m for or against it for showing. We’re currently taking our boys to local schooling shows just to hang out and let them get used to the atmosphere. They are backyard horses so can be a little challenging in new environments. As long as they’re not competing, I’m all for giving them a little quietex or something similar to take the edge off and make the whole experience a little better for them. I’m even willing to give them 1 or 2 tabs of ace.

I’m still undecided as to whether I’d be willing to give them anything when actually competing, even at a schooling show. There’s just something about the idea of a 1/2 alert horse going over fences that worries me a little. If they’re too mellow, there’s always the slim possibility of them hanging a leg, tripping, etc.

I understand the stakes are higher at a big show that you’ve prepped for all year, and I’d rather see someone give an oral calming supplement like perfect prep if they really think they need it, than any of the other garbage that’s being injected to keep them going while pushing the envelope with even more risky ingredients in an attempt to avoid detection. If giving a horse a tube of perfect prep means they won’t get a needle, I guess I wouldn’t judge anyone too harshly for that.

#42

[QUOTE=Trevelyan96;6523193]
…
I understand the stakes are higher at a big show that you’ve prepped for all year, and I’d rather see someone give an oral calming supplement like perfect prep if they really think they need it, than any of the other garbage that’s being injected to keep them going while pushing the envelope with even more risky ingredients in an attempt to avoid detection. If giving a horse a tube of perfect prep means they won’t get a needle, I guess I wouldn’t judge anyone too harshly for that.[/QUOTE]

AWESOME!!!

So if my DD ever asks to snort some coke, I’ll just say “well, if it will keep you from shooting up the meth, it’s okay with me!!”

Because, you know, it’s not like starting out bending the rules just a bit is possibly ever going to lead to using anything stronger…right? :confused:

The twisting and justifying of using something to alter a horse (after all, they can’t prove why you’re using it, wink, wink) during a show is just sad.

What happened to real horsepeople who trained through it, sigh.

#43

[QUOTE=MoonoverMississippi;6523241]
AWESOME!!!

So if my DD ever asks to snort some coke, I’ll just say “well, if it will keep you shooting up the meth, it’s okay with me!!”

Because, you know, it’s not like starting out bending the rules just a bit is possibly ever going to lead to using anything stronger…right? :confused:

The twisting and justifying of using something to alter a horse (after all, they can’t prove why you’re using it, wink, wink) during a show is just sad.

What happened to real horsepeople who trained through it, sigh.[/QUOTE]

^^ Pressing the “Like” button repeatedly.

#44

[QUOTE=MoonoverMississippi;6523241]
AWESOME!!!

So if my DD ever asks to snort some coke, I’ll just say “well, if it will keep you shooting up the meth, it’s okay with me!!”

Because, you know, it’s not like starting out bending the rules just a bit is possibly ever going to lead to using anything stronger…right? :confused:

The twisting and justifying of using something to alter a horse (after all, they can’t prove why you’re using it, wink, wink) during a show is just sad.

What happened to real horsepeople who trained through it, sigh.[/QUOTE]

I know this wasn’t directed at me specifically, but, seriously, I’m not sure why it is so hard to believe that people use feed through magnesium for reasons other than calming.

As I mentioned, I use it for my horse that has extreme muscle tension problems in his hind end when not supplemented with magnesium. Without being supplemented, his hindquarter muscles visibly tremor when he is standing still and he is unable to even be trimmed by the farrier; he is virtually crippled behind. He would get so sore that he would kick out at people touching his hindquarters. It is not the kind of thing one “trains through,” and it was most assuredly a legitimate medical issue. Anyone that knows me can attest to the fact that I am a “real” horseman and I don’t do things for my convenience, but rather, for the benefit of my horses.

My vet is on board with supplementing with magnesium for the purpose of helping with the muscle tension (the alternative is robaxin, which actually IS a drug).

FWIW, the magnesium does not make him more calm, like, at all. If anything, he is more forward because his butt isn’t cramped up.

Part of being a “real horseman” is knowing that there is no one size fits all. You can’t just “train through” everything, and many a horse has suffered at the hands of “real horsemen” who train through physical problems without bothering to treat them.

#45

[QUOTE=FineAlready;6523282]
I know this wasn’t directed at me specifically, but, seriously, I’m not sure why it is so hard to believe that people use feed through magnesium for reasons other than calming.

As I mentioned, I use it for my horse that has extreme muscle tension problems in his hind end when not supplemented with magnesium. Without being supplemented, his hindquarter muscles visibly tremor when he is standing still and he is unable to even be trimmed by the farrier; he is virtually crippled behind. He would get so sore that he would kick out at people touching his hindquarters. It is not the kind of thing one “trains through,” and it was most assuredly a legitimate medical issue. Anyone that knows me can attest to the fact that I am a “real” horseman and I don’t do things for my convenience, but rather, for the benefit of my horses.

My vet is on board with supplementing with magnesium for the purpose of helping with the muscle tension (the alternative is robaxin, which actually IS a drug).

FWIW, the magnesium does not make him more calm, like, at all. If anything, he is more forward because his butt isn’t cramped up.

Part of being a “real horseman” is knowing that there is no one size fits all. You can’t just “train through” everything, and many a horse has suffered at the hands of “real horsemen” who train through physical problems without bothering to treat them.[/QUOTE]

I have NO issue with using mag for legitimate reasons such as physical issues, and I have NO issue with using calming agents when not showing, for things like introducing new things such as introducing young animals to busy showgrounds, clipping the first time or two, etc.

I DO have an issue with people using things such as magnesium and Perfect Prep to show and saying it is for muscle issues or other legitimate reasons, when that is not the true reasoning for using it. And I have a huge issue with the idea that it’s okay since if they don’t use something so “innocent” people would use more dangerous drugs (because that makes it all okay:confused::confused:).

I was taught that the journey was the important part, not taking every shortcut available to you, legal or not, just to end up with a ribbon.

#46

[QUOTE=pds;6522252]
True, but if it (or any other drug for that matter, forbidden or not) is being used to “a. Any stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or
behavior altering) substance, or drug which might affect the performance of a horse
and/or pony (stimulants and/or depressants are defined as substances which stimulate
or depress the cardiovascular, respiratory or central nervous systems), or any
metabolite and/or analogue of any such substance or drug, except as expressly permitted by this rule.”

It IS a forbidden substance. Does not have to be on “the list.”[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry but you don’t get to decide what is ‘forbidden’.
That responsibility falls to USEF and guess what. It isn’t on the forbidden list. LOL
If your horse is tested for drugs and the sample contains mag so what. It is naturally found in the horse ( and humans). Till USEF can figure out what normal ranges are for magnesium it will not cause a drug test problem.
I do think they should have ranges but if it’s defined too tightly then some equines that don’t get any supplements could fall over the limit.

#47

[QUOTE=Madeline;6522767]
They don’t need to ban it, it’s already illegal. It’s the “intent” to alter behavior that makes it illegal. How hard is that to understand?[/QUOTE]

Then is lunging cheating too? Just curious about how far we’re going with the “intent” to alter behavior thing. Because most people are lunging to “take the edge off”, are they not?

#48

The language in the rule is not meant to keep people from feeding supplements that don’t sedate tranquilize etc. by reading the intent section of the rule the way you are, you would prevent use of all supplements that improve the performance of your horse. I feed HA to make my horse more comfortable and prevent his sucking back, head shaking behavior which correlates to his joint comfort. I also feed oral mag to a horse that’s cresty and tense, he’s more comfortable, muscles less tense which i have to believe improves his happiness quotient and likely his performance. By your interpretation of the rule, not allowed! These supplements were given with the intent of altering performance by improving physical well being which improves attitude. Every supplement from joint juice to red cell would trigger that interpretation.

The intent language in the rule is meant to give officials flexibility in slamming new compounds like CG or practices like mag injection that sedate, or stimulate, etc etc. Not to prevent the feeding of vitamins, minerals etc. that improve a horses systemic function which can lead to improved performance through physical well being. I’ve had this conversation with usef many times; I check whenever I feed a new supplement.

Many cheat, I don’t condone it and we all need to work to stop it. But it doesn’t help to interpret the rules in Ridiculous ways. Let’s focus our effort on hunting down those injecting mag, using reserpine and the rest. I don’t think it’s time, money or brain cells well spent worrying if Suzy’s pony received a vitamin b supplement in their evening feed.

#49

You have to read the entire rule and understand in context - not just pieces. The key is intent to alter performance COUPLED with compounds that sedate, stimulate, etc etc.

Lunging, cookies after a good round, pats on the neck, vitamins, etc all intended to alter performance and all legal!!! Unless you laced the cookies with a little weed…

#50

Giving any supplements, medications etc to a horse in order to modify its mood or behavior is against the rules, cheating, and is poor sportsmanship.

Do what you want when schooling – when showing, you are supposed to compete on the horse you have. If spookiness, bad attitude etc cannot be corrected by training – well, that is the horse you have. You shouldn’t medicate it to make it one it is not.

#51

[QUOTE=Appsolute;6523542]
Giving any supplements, medications etc to a horse in order to modify its mood or behavior is against the rules, cheating, and is poor sportsmanship.

Do what you want when schooling – when showing, you are supposed to compete on the horse you have. If spookiness, bad attitude etc cannot be corrected by training – well, that is the horse you have. You shouldn’t medicate it to make it one it is not.[/QUOTE]

Once more, you don’t make the rules.
Giving anything even feed could be seen as modifying behavior. Want to modify the mood? Feed it a carrot. Under your very narrow view that would be a behavior modification.
And I really don’t think carrots count as medications.
Just an example to show how silly your interpretation is.

If your horse spooks then walk it past whatever scares him/her. Under your view that would also be a behavior modification. Sorry, that’s just horsemanship.

#52

[QUOTE=Trevelyan96;6523193]

I’m still undecided as to whether I’d be willing to give them anything when actually competing, even at a schooling show. [/QUOTE]

For you it might be just a little schooling show but for someone who can only afford to do schooling shows, it is a big deal for them.

Those riders may work all year for their opportunity to have 2 minutes in front of the judge. If you only have access to local shows then it means as much to you as a AA 3’6 class does to another person.

If you decide you think it is ethical to ace and show your horse please consider telling the judge you are just going in for experience only. Your horse won’t know the difference. No need to take a ribbon from a deserving rider.

#53

[QUOTE=pds;6522700]
Really sad when both horse and rider have to be drugged just to get into the competition ring.:([/QUOTE]

I hate to be offensive but this is quite ignorant. “Drugged” is a pretty interesting word to use given the above statements. If a rider has a sever issue with anxiety or any other disorder they may need medication, “drugs”. Theres really nothing “sad” about this unless you mean sad as in feeling sorry for this person.

#54

[QUOTE=S A McKee;6523436]
I’m sorry but you don’t get to decide what is ‘forbidden’.
That responsibility falls to USEF and guess what. It isn’t on the forbidden list. LOL
If your horse is tested for drugs and the sample contains mag so what. It is naturally found in the horse ( and humans). Till USEF can figure out what normal ranges are for magnesium it will not cause a drug test problem.
I do think they should have ranges but if it’s defined too tightly then some equines that don’t get any supplements could fall over the limit.[/QUOTE]

You are completely missing the point.
I’m not deciding if a substance is legal or not under USEF rules.
USEF has already don that. Point is a substance does not have to be on the list for its use to be deemed illegal.

If you use a substance (such as Perfect Prep) that happens to not be on the list with the intent to “affect the performance of a horse
and/or pony (stimulants and/or depressants are defined as substances which stimulate
or depress the cardiovascular, respiratory or central nervous systems), or any metabolite and/or analogue of any such substance or drug, except as expressly permitted by this rule.” it is considered illegal and cheating.

#55

I know everyone likes to say that the rule has something to do with “intent.” It actually doesn’t.

The relevant portion of GR 410 states:

  1. No horse and/or pony competing in a Breed or Discipline designated as (or part of) a Therapeutic Substance Group is to be shown in any class at a competition licensed by the Federation (see also GR402.1, last sentence) if it has been administered in any manner or otherwise contains in its tissues, body fluids or excreta a forbidden substance except as provided in GR411. Any horse and/or pony that competes in more than one Breed, Discipline, and/or Group at a competition,one of which is a No Banned Substance Group, shall be required to be in compliance with the No Banned Substance Provisions at all times while competing in any and/or all classes and/or divisions at that competition. [B]For purposes of this rule, a forbidden substance is:

[/B]a. Any stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance, or drug which might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony (stimulants and/or depressants are defined as substances which stimulate or depress the cardiovascular, respiratory or central nervous systems), or any metabolite and/or analogue of any such substance or drug, except as expressly permitted by this rule.

It has NOTHING to do with whether or not you INTEND for something to affect performance. In order to be a “forbidden substance,” something must be: (a) a stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic substance, or drug AND (b) something that might affect the performance of the horse. You must have A and B for something to be a forbidden substance.

SO - Magnesium is NOT a forbidden substance because it is NOT a stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic subtance, or drug. It is a MINERAL. And a mineral that occurs naturally in the horse’s body at that. Same with B vitamins. Same with Red Cell. Same with electrolytes. Same with most supplements. While each of these things might affect the performance of a horse, particularly a horse with deficiencies, they are NOT forbidden substances because they do not meet the first criterion (they are not “stimulants, depressants…etc.”)

FURTHER, if something IS a stimulant, depressant, drug, etc. (thereby meeting the first criterion), it must ALSO be something that “might affect the performance of the horse” in order to be a forbidden substance. It has nothing to do with what you intend. It simply has to be something that “might affect the performance of the horse.” This is an objective standard, although a very poorly defined objective standard due to the use of the word “might” which is far too open to interpretation. (A better, more effective and easiliy applied standard would be “reasonably likely to affect.”) You can have all kinds of good “intent” that 3 ccs of Ace won’t affect the performance of your horse, but the fact is that, objectively, it “might” (of course, it WILL).

Likewise, you can have all kinds of intent that some substance that can be accurately characterized as a “depressant” will have a sedating effect on your horse, but the fact of the matter is that if for some reason that substance has no chance of having a sedating effect on horses (perhaps it is known that it does not have a sedating effect on horses because of the way they metabolize it…I don’t know…just making this substance up for the point of argument), then it is NOT a forbidden substance under the rule because there is no chance that it “might affect the performance of the horse,” notwithstanding the fact that it can be accurately classified as a “depressant.”

I repeat, THE RULE AS DRAFTED HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INTENT. It is all purportedly “objective.” There is no use of the word “intent,” and you can’t even imply it into the rule. Like most USEF rules, this one is poorly drafted, confusing, and difficult to enforce.

USEF needs to figure out what it wants to ban and then DRAFT RULES THAT MEAN SOMETHING. For what it’s worth, I would LOVE to see a rule that bans the use of IV magnesium. That would not be difficult to draft, and it would go a lot further toward protecting horses than a lot of spatting over whether or not someone is giving feed-through magnesium in a supplement. Heck, if USEF wants to ban supplements or vitamins of any kind, FINE. I won’t be showing because it wouldn’t be in the best interest of my horse, but at least that would be a clear rule.

#56

[QUOTE=svf86;6523168]
Now I have another question as for human drug testing … I know quite a few people who have doctor prescribed medications for anxiety, depression, bipolar, anti-seizure etc … These are all very necessary prescribed medications. My question may be completely obvious but these medications would all turn up in a drug test. With a doctor released medical “note” of some sort would these positive tests be disregarded or would this still lead to a “ban” of those trainers. It may start a debate but I find this to be quite unfair if the person needs these, especially an anti-seizure medication which is quite often combined with an anxiety medication (not commonly zanex).[/QUOTE]

I was waiting for someone to bring a point like this up. As someone who takes a mild, daily anti-anxiety medication I am slightly offended by some of the more extreme reactions regarding people taking these types of medications as “coke” or “meth.” For me, it is not mood altering, it allows me to feel more like myself without any unreasonable (or outlandish) worrying or fears. I believe that some people and horses have more anxiety than others and while it is definitely wrong to drug people/horses into a stupor, relieving some of the worry/fear to think clearly and be more like yourself on a good day is only fair.

I believe injectable performance enhances for both people and horses are wrong, but natural herbal supplements that relieve anxiety (not drug the crap out of you, make you tired, sluggish) ought to be taking a little less criticism. And it’s awfully hypocritical to make judgements about medical conditions people you know (or know of) may have.

#57

[QUOTE=tua37516;6524779]
I was waiting for someone to bring a point like this up. As someone who takes a mild, daily anti-anxiety medication I am slightly offended by some of the more extreme reactions regarding people taking these types of medications as “coke” or “meth.” For me, it is not mood altering, it allows me to feel more like myself without any unreasonable (or outlandish) worrying or fears. I believe that some people and horses have more anxiety than others and while it is definitely wrong to drug people/horses into a stupor, relieving some of the worry/fear to think clearly and be more like yourself on a good day is only fair.

I believe injectable performance enhances for both people and horses are wrong, but natural herbal supplements that relieve anxiety (not drug the crap out of you, make you tired, sluggish) ought to be taking a little less criticism. And it’s awfully hypocritical to make judgements about medical conditions people you know (or know of) may have.[/QUOTE]

Totally agreed. Without my daily anxiety drug - and it’s even the lowest possible dosage - I would not be able to do anything without feeling wound up, stunted and panicky. Including riding, but even everyday tasks like LOOKING at a to-do list at my job. I can only imagine that all sorts of animals can feel like this too, and I honestly wouldn’t wish this feeling on anyone. Taking my meds just makes me feel “normal,” like you said.

#58

[QUOTE=MoonoverMississippi;6523241]
AWESOME!!!

So if my DD ever asks to snort some coke, I’ll just say “well, if it will keep you from shooting up the meth, it’s okay with me!!”

Because, you know, it’s not like starting out bending the rules just a bit is possibly ever going to lead to using anything stronger…right? :confused:

The twisting and justifying of using something to alter a horse (after all, they can’t prove why you’re using it, wink, wink) during a show is just sad.

What happened to real horsepeople who trained through it, sigh.[/QUOTE]

That is the most ridiculous analogy I’ve ever heard. A calming aid is absolutely not comparable to a hard core mind altering drug.

#59

[QUOTE=MoonoverMississippi;6523241]
AWESOME!!!

So if my DD ever asks to snort some coke, I’ll just say “well, if it will keep you from shooting up the meth, it’s okay with me!!”

Because, you know, it’s not like starting out bending the rules just a bit is possibly ever going to lead to using anything stronger…right? :confused:

The twisting and justifying of using something to alter a horse (after all, they can’t prove why you’re using it, wink, wink) during a show is just sad.

What happened to real horsepeople who trained through it, sigh.[/QUOTE]

Wow. Really? Did you read the whole post, or just the part that you wanted to take to the next level of outrageous assumption?

I believe in preparing a horse with training and exposure, as I stated above. I also don’t believe in jumping to conclusions about why others are/are not administering a natural occuring supplement for competition. I’d rather see an inexperienced 8 year old on a quiet pony in a schooling show that’s been given a tube of perfect prep than a well experienced ammy on a 1/2 dead horse that’s been shot up with god only knows what stumbling over fences at 3’6".

For rated shows, its totally the responsibility of the USEF to decide what is acceptable to administer a horse at a show, and until they ban the stuff, I’m not going to put myself in the god seat and assign motive. My only concern is that every horse that goes into the ring is SAFE and SOUND enough to be there. That’s what stewards are for.

Mine don’t go in the ring until they’re both physically and mentally ready, without chemical help. If they’re not able to handle it on their own, classes get scratched and they get walked around the grounds and stay in the schooling ring. It’s demoralizing and depressing, but its the most comfortable course of action I’ve come up with for myself and my horses.

This doesn’t have to be an ‘all or nothing - cheating vs. risking your life’ scenario. That’s the kind of ‘no room for individual judgement’ stupid logic that has 6 year olds getting tasered for throwing a tantrum.

#60

I’m jumping in again because honestly for the more extreme people on this thread, if I fed my horse lavender before a show because it helped him focus that would be “illegal” which is absolutely ridiculous. However, according to their website Perfect Prep is totally legal with several guidelines

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