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Does anyone use the perfect prep training day formula?

Hunter/Jumper
#61

Pleas note the word or. Not “and”. It says “or”.
Notice that the rule does NOT have a comma after the word “drug”

It is banned if it is a
“stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance"
or a
"drug which might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony”

For instance, a “local anesthetic " is banned, whether or not it "
" which might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony”

It has NOTHING to do with whether or not you INTEND for something to affect performance. In order to be a “forbidden substance,” something must be: (a) a stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic substance, or drug AND (b) something that might affect the performance of the horse. You must have A and B for something to be a forbidden substance.

NO, NOT “AND”. the rule says “or”

SO - Magnesium is NOT a forbidden substance because it is NOT a stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic subtance, or drug.

Right conclusion, wrong logic

Magnesium is not a
"stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance"

Nor is it a

"drug which might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony"

Therefore I agree it is not banned under the current rule. But that is because it is not a “drug”.

It is a MINERAL. And a mineral that occurs naturally in the horse’s body at that. Same with B vitamins. Same with Red Cell. Same with electrolytes. Same with most supplements.
[/quote]

I agree that B vitamins (don’t know exactly what is in Red Cell, but probably true tere too)and electrolytes are not banned. But it is becuase they are NEITHER
"stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance"

Nor are they

“drugs”"

USEF needs to figure out what it wants to ban and then DRAFT RULES THAT MEAN SOMETHING.

I agree that the USEF drug rules are badly in need of rewriting to be clear, and to address today’s environment.

#62

I agree that B vitamins (don’t know exactly what is in Red Cell, but probably true tere too)and electrolytes are not banned. But it is becuase they are NEITHER
"stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance"

Nor are they

“drugs”"

I agree that the USEF drug rules are badly in need of rewriting to be clear, and to address today’s environment.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for this, this was very concise and succicnt!

#63

[QUOTE=AirForceWife;6524819]
That is the most ridiculous analogy I’ve ever heard. A calming aid is absolutely not comparable to a hard core mind altering drug.[/QUOTE]

lol, you are right; a better anology would be using weed instead of heroin.

#64

[QUOTE=Madeline;6522767]
They don’t need to ban it, it’s already illegal. It’s the “intent” to alter behavior that makes it illegal. How hard is that to understand?[/QUOTE]

Here’s how hard it is to understand a rule that is poorly written. I give my horse something with the “intent to alter behavior”.

It’s called ALFALFA.

He’s a quiet, low energy boy and alfalfa helps with that problem.

#65

[QUOTE=AirForceWife;6524874]
I’m jumping in again because honestly for the more extreme people on this thread, if I fed my horse lavender before a show because it helped him focus that would be “illegal” which is absolutely ridiculous. However, according to their website Perfect Prep is totally legal with several guidelines[/QUOTE]

Lavender is on the USEF forbidden substance list.

#66

But, like anything else, if you go to it all the time? You need to examine what you are doing or the suitability of the horse for what it is doing and who is riding it.

And please, if you are trainer, that is using anything to help a horse’s mood, no matter how benign you might think it to be, PLEASE LET THE OWNER KNOW. Say “hey, your horse is an idiot and needs to be medicated under these circumstances.”

Because, you know, when you don’t know your horse is being drugged on occasion, it might make it really *&%&^%I&^ hard for the owner and vet to figure out that PAIN is the issue and not behavior. :slight_smile:

So use it if you must, but realize…sometimes being naughty or tense is a horse that hurts.

#67

[QUOTE=2bayboys;6524971]
Here’s how hard it is to understand a rule that is poorly written. I give my horse something with the “intent to alter behavior”.

It’s called ALFALFA.

He’s a quiet, low energy boy and alfalfa helps with that problem.[/QUOTE]

Likewise, I feed my horse a stabilized rice bran/flax meal mixture because it keeps her calm. My intent is to keep her calm, but the shiny coat and other benefits of Omega 3’s are also a bonus. I don’t think I’ve ever had anyone say anything to me about it. I also allow her to smell some essential oils that have a soothing effect before we show.

I have a horse that’s on Perfect Prep Training Day. I suspect she’s deficient in magnesium as she was terribly jumpy and had very tight muscles. I tried several supplements with magnesium, and Perfect Prep was the only one that didn’t give her runny stools but still solved the muscle problem. My intention is not to calm her, but she is a lot less jumpy on it, which is a nice bonus. I don’t show her, but even if I did, it wouldn’t change my intention. Lots of magnesium/B supplements are labeled as calming supplements, but can be used on any horse with a magnesium deficiency. The ingredients are listed on the website. There are no calming herbs, just mag and different amino acids.

That said, I do think people need to be careful about feeding their horses unregulated supplements without FDA approval. Herbs can be very beneficial, but many can cause issues as well. And just because something is naturally produced within the horse or occurs naturally in the soil, does not mean it is safe to supplement with it.

And again-it’s not that horses can’t have herbs. There are wild herbs that grow in my horse’s pastures that they seem to really like. But it’s wise to be careful.

#68

[QUOTE=Trevelyan96;6524836]
Wow. Really? Did you read the whole post, or just the part that you wanted to take to the next level of outrageous assumption?

I believe in preparing a horse with training and exposure, as I stated above. I also don’t believe in jumping to conclusions about why others are/are not administering a natural occuring supplement for competition. I’d rather see an inexperienced 8 year old on a quiet pony in a schooling show that’s been given a tube of perfect prep than a well experienced ammy on a 1/2 dead horse that’s been shot up with god only knows what stumbling over fences at 3’6".

For rated shows, its totally the responsibility of the USEF to decide what is acceptable to administer a horse at a show, and until they ban the stuff, I’m not going to put myself in the god seat and assign motive. My only concern is that every horse that goes into the ring is SAFE and SOUND enough to be there. That’s what stewards are for.

Mine don’t go in the ring until they’re both physically and mentally ready, without chemical help. If they’re not able to handle it on their own, classes get scratched and they get walked around the grounds and stay in the schooling ring. It’s demoralizing and depressing, but its the most comfortable course of action I’ve come up with for myself and my horses.

This doesn’t have to be an ‘all or nothing - cheating vs. risking your life’ scenario. That’s the kind of ‘no room for individual judgement’ stupid logic that has 6 year olds getting tasered for throwing a tantrum.[/QUOTE]

The part I quoted was not refering to a schooling show with an inexperienced child on a rowdy pony but:

“I understand the stakes are higher at a big show that you’ve prepped for all year, and I’d rather see someone give an oral calming supplement like perfect prep if they really think they need it, than any of the other garbage that’s being injected to keep them going while pushing the envelope with even more risky ingredients in an attempt to avoid detection. If giving a horse a tube of perfect prep means they won’t get a needle, I guess I wouldn’t judge anyone too harshly for that.”

I thought you were saying that it would be okay to give them a little something “innocent” to prevent ever using the hard stuff. I apologize for misunderstanding.

As far as “jumping to conclusions about why others are/are not administering a natural occuring supplement for competition”, I was referring to my experiences.

My daughter’s first show horse had to be retired from the showring as he was incapable of arriving at the showgrounds with his brains still attached; while we were still trying to work him through it we were offered an amazing array of substances from many (probably) well-meaning people with instructions on what to tell people we were using it for (as in what reasons we needed it for therapuetic purposes), and in some cases, what vets to use for other substances. Not one person ever said “your horse might be low in X, try that on him and see if it helps”, it was “use X, and tell people you need it because of Y” or “bring him by my stalls and leave him for a few, he’ll be right as rain (with a smile and yes, a wink).” I’m sure plenty of people do use some of the offered substances for the therapuetic reasons, but from my experiences there are plenty that do not. And I had to explain to my DD why even though trainers she looked up to and friend’s parents said this stuff was okay I didn’t think it was correct to use such substances for that purpose.

According to many here I apparently was a fool for not “going with the program” but I don’t believe so.

#69

Janet, I think you are incorrect about the clause “which might affect the performance of a horse.” I am fairly certain it was intended to modify all of the words in the series, rather than just the word “drug.” Looking for the grammar rule on this one, but not finding it at the moment. If you know the grammar rule and if I am incorrect, please point me to it.

#70

The long and short of it is that currently the USEF is not treating it as an illegal substance. As such, I’m going to assume that they’re using some basis of solid reasoning based on science and sportsmanship, so that I don’t have to get myself all worked up about whether or not someone else is ‘cheating’.

#71

At one time, lawyers had both ethical guidelines and rules. The ethical guidelines were just that, something for each lawyer to consider and make his or her own decisions. The rules were less vague and not to be broken.

IMO, the USEF should do the same. The current rule is more like an ethical guideline. People should be able to evaluate the ethical guideline and do what they think is best for their horse, with a clear and specific rule in place to prohibit abuse.

I don’t really care if someone gets a little help from Perfect Prep or the like. They still have to have nine good jumps, leads and a judge who loves their horse. And the warmup ring is safer for it too. Same effect as as a 20 minute lunge IMO, and I sure don’t get bothered looking at the lunging area.

These calming threads never seem to address to me what is a very real issue with drugs. What bothers me second-most about drugs and what I see as a very real “drug problem” is in sales. If a horse is being shown on drugs and sold without disclosure, that is FRAUD!

What bothers me first-most is the sort of abuse that kills or harms the horses, i.e., injectable mag, dex, etc. But that is what a well written rule would be for.

Here is something I thought about today. Suppose Horse A goes to show and internalizes its stress and anxiety in the form of ulcer behavior. It is calmed with Ulcerguard or some other form of omeprazole with every intent to improve its performance. Horse B externalizes and gets a little spookier than at home. But it can’t get a little Perfect Prep for the same reason as Horse A?

#72

Pretty sure that the “which” in the sentence should be “that” (the sentence is grammatically incorrect as written), in which case the last clause should modify all of the words preceding the clause.

#73

[QUOTE=PaintedHunter;6524818]
Totally agreed. Without my daily anxiety drug - and it’s even the lowest possible dosage - I would not be able to do anything without feeling wound up, stunted and panicky. Including riding, but even everyday tasks like LOOKING at a to-do list at my job. I can only imagine that all sorts of animals can feel like this too, and I honestly wouldn’t wish this feeling on anyone. Taking my meds just makes me feel “normal,” like you said.[/QUOTE]

But these are horses, not people. A hunter is supposed to be an inherently calm horse, ready for the job at hand without the help of pharmaceuticals.

If the horse cannot manage at the show without the help of pharmaceuticals or proper training. Well then the horse is not cut out for the job. A horse which has had its behavior modified by pharmaceuticals should not be allowed compete against a “clean horse”. It’s not fair to the horse that has the right temperament for the job to compete against horse’s who’s behavior has been modified by drugs / supplements.

Giving anything to the horse with the goal of altering behavior in a competition ring is poor sportsmanship.

#74

[QUOTE=ToTheNines;6525188]

Here is something I thought about today. Suppose Horse A goes to show and internalizes its stress and anxiety in the form of ulcer behavior. It is calmed with Ulcerguard or some other form of omeprazole with every intent to improve its performance. Horse B externalizes and gets a little spookier than at home. But it can’t get a little Perfect Prep for the same reason as Horse A?[/QUOTE]

This was my reasoning for using the Perfect Prep. Horse is an overthinker (like his owner) and had a bully pasture mate. Had an injury that made him upset and caused issues. I’m now working on a domino affect. He’s got ulcers so I treat the ulcers but can’t get them fully cured because he was upset and wouldn’t get over it. Back to treating ulcers, etc. I’m giving the perfect prep in hopes to silence the lambs enough to treat the ulcers and get him ‘back’. I’m working together with my vet, my trainer and my chiropractor to attempt to address the behavior.

If this doesn’t work enough to quiet him down and cure his ulcer and personality problem then he goes back to a quiet and secluded pasture to hang for a month or two and see if that helps. For me it won’t be a constant supplement in his feed just to get us over this hump. If it doesn’t then obviously other arrangements have to be made.

#75

[QUOTE=Appsolute;6525354]
But these are horses, not people. A hunter is supposed to be an inherently calm horse, ready for the job at hand without the help of pharmaceuticals.

If the horse cannot manage at the show without the help of pharmaceuticals or proper training. Well then the horse is not cut out for the job. A horse which has had its behavior modified by pharmaceuticals should not be allowed compete against a “clean horse”. It’s not fair to the horse that has the right temperament for the job to compete against horse’s who’s behavior has been modified by drugs / supplements.

Giving anything to the horse with the goal of altering behavior in a competition ring is poor sportsmanship.[/QUOTE]

I was mostly commenting on those equating people anxiety drugs with things like coke/meth/what have you. But in reference to the horse not having the right temperament, I have seen PLENTY of horses who don’t innately have the right temperament but have been lunged into oblivion before every class. I think that’s worse for the horse’s long-term health (joints, etc.) than some magnesium or what have you.

#76

[QUOTE=Appsolute;6525354]
But these are horses, not people. A hunter is supposed to be an inherently calm horse, ready for the job at hand without the help of pharmaceuticals.

If the horse cannot manage at the show without the help of pharmaceuticals or proper training. Well then the horse is not cut out for the job. A horse which has had its behavior modified by pharmaceuticals should not be allowed compete against a “clean horse”. It’s not fair to the horse that has the right temperament for the job to compete against horse’s who’s behavior has been modified by drugs / supplements.

Giving anything to the horse with the goal of altering behavior in a competition ring is poor sportsmanship.[/QUOTE]

Appsolute, you are taking a really ridiculous position if you are lumping drugs and supplements into the same category. They are not the same thing, and I find your signature line ironic if you really think supplements should be banned.

Incidentally, for folks complaining about supplements like magnesium and such, how do you all feel about actual IA joint injections, which are also virtually certain to enhance performance, involve the injection of a drug right into a joint, and are not USEF banned? That’s all fine, right?

#77

Painted Hunter, you mean you never burned down a joint and then went looking for some herion to shoot up? Come on now.

I mean all the stoners I knew were just really looking for potato chips! Or a Pizza Hut.

#78

[QUOTE=HRF Second Chance;6525409]
Painted Hunter, you mean you never burned down a joint and then went looking for some herion to shoot up? Come on now.

I mean all the stoners I knew were just really looking for potato chips! Or a Pizza Hut.[/QUOTE]

Only on Tuesdays.

#79

[QUOTE=PaintedHunter;6525380]
I was mostly commenting on those equating people anxiety drugs with things like coke/meth/what have you. But in reference to the horse not having the right temperament, I have seen PLENTY of horses who don’t innately have the right temperament but have been lunged into oblivion before every class. I think that’s worse for the horse’s long-term health (joints, etc.) than some magnesium or what have you.[/QUOTE]

If you are referencing my post, it was in response to the quote in that post, which was about giving a HORSE Perfect Prep instead of the “hard” (injectable) stuff. There was nothing about human anxiety drugs being compared to coke/meth/weed/heroin in there.

As far as horses being lunged into oblivion before classes being worse for long-term health than a calming agent, how about doing neither? Why do these discussions always turn into a “its better than X”? If a horse must be a) given something to calm it in the show ring or b)be lunged into oblivion, maybe it needs a few non-showing trips to the showgrounds, more training, or (gasp) a different career?

#80

[QUOTE=PaintedHunter;6525411]
Only on Tuesdays.[/QUOTE]

Is that $5 pizza day? Because I’ve likely spent the bulk of my free cash on meth and need a break.

Or maybe I should just ace myself. This thread makes me feel like i may need it.

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