Does overfeeding (and oversupplementing) mares lead to limb abnormalities

[Dr_Doolittle]

in the foal?

I was reading about this, and it seemed to suggest a causal link–especially if the overfeeding was in the last trimester.

My mare is (um) pretty fat :uhoh:, though not obese–I can still feel her ribs if I dig–and is at 265 days. She is turned out for about 10 hours a day, in a stall for 14. The pasture at my boarding facility is very grazed down, not much to eat out there, even in spring. (NO worries about fescue in this pasture, per the repro specialists), but we also haven’t been able to put out round bales to supplement the forage because one of my mare’s pasture-mates (who belongs to the BO) has COPD, so is not allowed to have any hay–he gets big tubs of hay forage for meals instead. (She has not been in work, though I do longe her in the pasture for exercise sometimes…)

I have kept her in this situation while she has been in foal because it is and has been a “stable long-term environment” for her, a small herd of 3–her and 2 geldings–and she has minimal stress as a result. So far so good.

I supplement the BO’s daily allotment of hay (4-5 flakes or 15-20 lbs. per day of adequate Timothy, in a slow feed hay bag for her–the quality varies) with another 15ish lbs. of hay I buy myself. It used to be Teff, is now orchard grass. She gobbles up the more palatable loose hay (provided by me), and then goes to work on the hay bag with the lesser quality Timothy. I like to think that this lasts her most of the night! For meals, she gets about an lb. or two of wet down Alfalfa forage twice a day, and a handful of Legends pellets. I supplement this diet (a baggie, given with the morning feeding) with 1 scoop of Glanzen 3 (ground flax with B vitamins and Biotin), Accel vitamin/mineral supplement, at a maintenance for pregnant mares (two 1 oz. scoops), and one 1 oz. scoop of U-Guard per day to try to prevent the acid from building up when she is going for hours with just a scant amount of forage to nibble on.

I sent this in to the Kentucky Nutrition Research Lab a few months ago, and they said this was perfectly adequate for a pregnant mare, but to add salt, (she has a block in her stall AND in the field, licks them regularly ;))

Sorry for the novel, but I try to cover everything in my original posts, which saves people from having to respond with further questions before they are able to come up with salient advice!

Bottom line, is this overfeeding, and if so, how do I reduce the calories while still providing adequate nutrition AND enough forage?!?

TIA

[JB]

No loose hay.

NO alfalfa forage.

No Legends feed.

She’s FAT, she needs her calories reduced.

30-35lb of hay for a fat mare? Don’t supplement what the barn feeds. If what she gets in her stall in a slow feeder is leaving her with 8+ hours of nothing to eat, then give her another double-netted something, teeny tiny holes, of maybe another 5lb of hay.

If you need something to carry her supplements, then 1-2 cups of either beet pulp or alfalfa forage, wet a bit. That should be plenty, and is far fewer calories (especially if you use beet pulp) than the 1-2lb of a-forage.

[Zu_Zu]

? Reading Again ? OH MY !!! another set of ‘worries’

Just …
Jingles & AO that July comes faster than usual this year ~ :yes:

She is going to be lovely ~ and you will cry when you see her AND be SO VERY PROUD !

AND we will need pictures !!! ``please plan ahead for this photo op.

TIA

[lolita1]

![](ay be reading your post incorrectly but no adult horse should ever have ribs that can be seen including brood mares. Actually I also don’t believe a young horse should have ribs that can be seen. There is a difference between no ribs and fat.

The below is a picture of my mare at 5 weeks before she was due how does your mare compare. It can be very stressful trying to cover all basis and second guessing if you have done the right thing. The below is a photo that is not her best angle just one that is about heath of the horse.

[IMG]http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee5/liet1/LikeBCompress.jpg)

[lolita1]

The foal out of the above 15.2hh and 6ft rug was born windswept and her legs are the straightest (with lockup) which is why I chose the stallion. The mare above was born with very straight legs that turned out at the fetlocks the vets described her when she was born as the healthiest foal they had seen … she cost me 4K in vet bills for her legs … as the vet said when I bought her in as a baby I bet you are wondering why? S**t happens.

[JB]

[QUOTE=lol![](ta1;6283313]
May be reading your post incorrectly but no adult horse should ever have ribs that can be seen including brood mares. Actually I also don’t believe a young horse should have ribs that can be seen. There is a difference between no ribs and fat.
[/quote]

I disagree.

Define “ribs that can be seen”. A great many race horses have ribs that are seen when the horse turns, or he’s stretched out running. It’s NOT a bad thing to be able to see, while at rest, the last rib or two. Really.

That also doesn’t mean the horse whose ribs can’t be seen be can still easily be felt is fat.

But by all mean, a horse whose ribs can’t be felt without digging IS too fat, and advocating taking some weight off doesn’t mean take them to a BCS of 3.

The below is a picture of my mare at 5 weeks before she was due how does your mare compare. It can be very stressful trying to cover all basis and second guessing if you have done the right thing. The below is a photo that is not her best angle just one that is about heath of the horse.

[IMG]http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee5/liet1/LikeBCompress.jpg)

Doesn’t matter how 1 horse compares to another, since varying body types can present a picture that appears too thin or too fat. “I can still feel her ribs if I dig” is too heavy

Now, it may be a real struggle to get some weight off, there may be nothing that can done until the foal sucks some of it off her, but at 30-35lb of hay a day, plus 1-2lb alfalfa forage, there IS room to remove calories.

I’d MUCH rather see a broodie like this with that much food remove 5lb of hay and all the alf forage, and replace it with 2lb of a ration balancer. More nutrition, fewer calories.

[Dr_Doolittle]

lolita,

My mare looks about the same as yours in terms of body condition, but has a more noticeable “baby bump” at the back of her barrel (on the side where the foal is.)

You can’t see her ribs, but you can feel them.

My concern is that the barn hay is not very good at the moment (this may change with the next shipment in May), and she will eat it, but prefers the better quality hay. The timothy hay is primarily “gut fill”, and I suspect that it’s not really providing much in the way of nutrients–though without getting a core sample and having it analyzed, no way to tell. (The BO’s hay supplier gets his hay at various auctions, so the quality varies widely–one of the boarders had it analyzed about a year or two ago, and it was found to be lacking in protein and not very nutritious, the vet’s recommendation was to supplement the horse’s diets to make up the difference.)

I can certainly cut back on her alfalfa forage, though that provides some acid buffering calcium She wasn’t getting any grain until about 6 weeks ago, when I started giving her a handful, per the advice of the nutritionist. I’m thinking she should get more “grain” when she is a month out?, though by then she will be at the Repro center.

I can see whether the BO is willing to fill and hang two small hole hay feeders (I have tried using nets, mare tears them off the wall), I am using a Nibble Net with the smallest hole diameter. I hope the BO doesn’t decide this is too much of a PITA :-/ My mare has been using a Nibble Net for a couple of years, and she can devour hay through it fairly quickly, when motivated.

Keep in mind that there is virtually NO GRASS out in the pasture (not helped by our spring drought), which concerns me WRT the colic and ulcer situation, I would not be feeding extra hay if there were something for her to nibble on during the day.

THANKS ZuZu! As always, much appreciate your cheerful support!!

[Dr_Doolittle]

[QUOTE=JB;6283528]
I disagree.

Define “ribs that can be seen”. A great many race horses have ribs that are seen when the horse turns, or he’s stretched out running. It’s NOT a bad thing to be able to see, while at rest, the last rib or two. Really.

That also doesn’t mean the horse whose ribs can’t be seen be can still easily be felt is fat.

But by all mean, a horse whose ribs can’t be felt without digging IS too fat, and advocating taking some weight off doesn’t mean take them to a BCS of 3.

Doesn’t matter how 1 horse compares to another, since varying body types can present a picture that appears too thin or too fat. “I can still feel her ribs if I dig” is too heavy

Now, it may be a real struggle to get some weight off, there may be nothing that can done until the foal sucks some of it off her, but at 30-35lb of hay a day, plus 1-2lb alfalfa forage, there IS room to remove calories.

I’d MUCH rather see a broodie like this with that much food remove 5lb of hay and all the alf forage, and replace it with 2lb of a ration balancer. More nutrition, fewer calories.[/QUOTE]

I can certainly reduce the Alfalfa forage until I can find a ration balancer (any suggestions on a good one?), that sounds like a practical solution.

Agree with the various body types, my mare is a fairly compact animal, and looks substantial when she is not in moderate work (she was my Prelim event horse), she does not have a crease above her tailhead, and her hipbones are visible, she just has a big belly–though she has had that visible baby bump since she was 5 months’ gestation–so I think that may just be “her.”! My vet looked at her when she was 7 months along, and said she looked great, FWIW.

I’m thinking of putting the good hay in the Nibble Net, and the “less good” hay on the floor; this may be a reasonable solution

ALSO, I’m curious as to any input regarding my original question about limb abnormalities?? Anyone, anyone??

[ahf]

Personally, I don’t put a lot of credence in rib assessment in a late term mare. I look more at fat deposits on the neck, how spongy the tailhead is, and the size of her cheeks under her tail.

I also use feedxl.com (a subscription service) to keep on top of how I am doing in meeting the nutritional requirements. You can play with the amount of what you are feeding, and with different feeds (and forage) until the graph shows the horses’ requirements are met. You can also plug in what type of pasture she is on, and for how long each day. If you got a three horse subscription, you’ll be able to track the foal’s requirements as well over the first year.

For a ration balancer, I use Triple Crown 30.

ETA: I think I’ve saved some of the feedxl reports in PDF. If you want to see what some of the reports look like I can email one if you contact me.

[JB]

My personal opinion is that being able to feel ribs easily doesn’t necessarily mean they are too thin, especially if there’s a foal in there pulling things down. But I DO think that if you have to dig for ribs, then some weight can stand to come off. How much depends on how much digging is being done LOL

I do think an overweight pregnant mare, who has also likely lost muscle tone, especially if she’s a career broody, can look “thin” because of that lack of muscling along the topline, but still be overweight when it comes to fat.

OP, almost every recognizable company makes a ration balancer these days They’re all “good enough”, just some are higher quality, such as Progressive, TC, Seminole, LMF, and some others. But whatever you can easily get is going to be quite alright

[Dr_Doolittle]

Thanks, JB and ahf!

ahf, that would be great–I’ll PM you

[ahf]

sent!

[lolita1]

I think it is difficult to tell with out a picture of the mare. My mare didn’t look pregnant until really the last 5 weeks but she was a maiden and like women they all hold things differently. When the foal was in the right position her belly was a foot wide each side towards the end.

I gave my mare a commerical feed it was 2 kgs of hard feed + 2 kg of Lucern. Once 7mths it went up to 3kgs of each. Mare was on grass.

[lolita1]

Also under feeding causes the same problems in the articles I read as over doing.

[JB]

Under feeding isn’t the answer to a fat horse though Yes, there is an ideal. There is also some acceptable range on either side of that ideal. Stray too far though, over or under, and you’re asking for problems.

Dealing with calories is separate from dealing with nutrition. It’s easy to get enough nutrition into the horse who needs a great deal of calories. At some point you do have to watch for too much of some things.

It can be a lot harder to get the right nutrition into the easy keeper, and especially the high nutritional demands of the late gestation and particularly early lactating mare

[Dr_Doolittle]

[QUOTE=JB;6285023]
Under feeding isn’t the answer to a fat horse though Yes, there is an ideal. There is also some acceptable range on either side of that ideal. Stray too far though, over or under, and you’re asking for problems.

Dealing with calories is separate from dealing with nutrition. It’s easy to get enough nutrition into the horse who needs a great deal of calories. At some point you do have to watch for too much of some things.

It can be a lot harder to get the right nutrition into the easy keeper, and especially the high nutritional demands of the late gestation and particularly early lactating mare :([/QUOTE]

Yes, this is my concern. I did longe my chubby girl yesterday (walk/trot for 10 15 minutes), just to get her moving a bit, with no grass in the field (to speak of), she isn’t moving around much from “grass patch to grass patch”; she tends to just stand under the overhang with the other two horses and wait to be brought in for dinner!

I have issued new feeding instructions to reduce her caloric intake: cut way back on the alfalfa forage, still one handful of Legends pellets, and am looking into replacing both with a ration balancer. I ordered the teeniest hole Nibble Net, it should be here in a couple of days. Meanwhile, I am having them stuff the more palatable hay mixed with the LESS palatable hay into her hay bag; it should take her more time to eat this, and once I get the smaller hole hay bag, I can reduce her hay ration. She will now get only one flake of the good hay and one flake of the “less good hay” on the floor. She is in her stall for 14+ hours, so I want her to be able to nibble (slowly) on forage so that she isn’t standing there with an empty belly all night; she already has an empty belly for much of the day.

Thanks to everyone who has weighed in (so to speak :lol:), and especially to ahf!

I am STILL interested to see whether there is a correlation with limb issues in foals born to overweight mares?? If anyone has any thoughts or information on this, it would be appreciated!

[Home_Again_Farm]

The one time I had really contracted tendons on a brand new foal, I had allowed my mare to get way too chubby. Tetracycline put the foal right, but I made an effort to keep mama a reasonable weight for future pregnancies. At the time, I remember reading that there was thought to be a correlation between obese mares and dod.

[JB]

http://www.nzhanoverian.com/index.php/articles/nutrition/89-optimal-broodmare-nutrition

The fat mare has an increased risk of having a foal with bent legs (angular limb deformities)

that article is a really good read :yes:

[stoicfish]

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=19493&src=topic

I would be more worried about underfeeding a pregnant mare. I have not read any other articles (not that they do not exist) that link “fat” mares to limb deformities but there are tons of studies about lack of nutrition and health issues in the foal. I realize that obesity can have many serious health issues associated with it, but you have to be careful what you call fat. I thought my mare was too fat when I took her and her foal to a feeding seminar put on by a very experience PhD in Horse Nutrition who worked with race horses. He rated her a 6 and thought she looked great. She was shinny and a bit round!

[ahf]

I don’t like to foal out any mare slimmer than a six. I’ve had a couple of things go way bad wrong in foaling, and the mare needed the cushion.

THe caloric requirements for the first three months of lactation are jaw-dropping. If you get behind the eightball after foaling it’s hell to catch up.

In 40 days (the last thirty days of pregnancy) the OP’s mare will also have greater nutritional needs. By cutting back a little now, she will likely use up her extra pounds in the final weeks. I know the OP will keep a dilligent eye on her as she nears term.