The caloric requirements are much more mare-dependent than the nutritional requirements are. The protein requirements as soon as the mare starts nursing are double what the non-nursing mare requires. Right before she foals the protein requirements are maybe 50% higher than not pregnant.
But an easy keeping mare can still require relatively few calories and still be quite overweight - doesn’t negate the need for the high protein requirements though.
One thing that might help you is to start tracking more closely exactly what she is getting beyond hay – for example you noted 1-2 pounds of Alfalfa forage – you might find it beneficial to really start weighing her foods and tracking the amount of calories she’s eating - those little bits really do add up. She could be getting twice as many calories if she’s getting two pounds versus the one.
Like the handful of pellets – how big, how small etc. I’ve seen some peoples handfuls and it can be closer to a quarter scoop (not that yours is) and these little things add calories (and kind of empty not doing enough for you calories) than you think yet aren’t doing much for her nutrition.
I agree on the ration balancer as it will help you have a baseline for nutrition and then you can add or take away based on the current stage of her pregnancy and her weight needs.
I think for healthy foals (limbs included) you want to find a way to get the best nutrition you can into your mare so that she’s not just fat but healthy fat! I agree broodmares shouldn’t be thin, but I also agree with JBs point that their nutrition levels need to be right before we worry too much about ribs or no ribs.
[QUOTE=ljcfoh;6285770]
One thing that might help you is to start tracking more closely exactly what she is getting beyond hay – for example you noted 1-2 pounds of Alfalfa forage – you might find it beneficial to really start weighing her foods and tracking the amount of calories she’s eating - those little bits really do add up. She could be getting twice as many calories if she’s getting two pounds versus the one.
Like the handful of pellets – how big, how small etc. I’ve seen some peoples handfuls and it can be closer to a quarter scoop (not that yours is) and these little things add calories (and kind of empty not doing enough for you calories) than you think yet aren’t doing much for her nutrition.
I agree on the ration balancer as it will help you have a baseline for nutrition and then you can add or take away based on the current stage of her pregnancy and her weight needs.
I think for healthy foals (limbs included) you want to find a way to get the best nutrition you can into your mare so that she’s not just fat but healthy fat! I agree broodmares shouldn’t be thin, but I also agree with JBs point that their nutrition levels need to be right before we worry too much about ribs or no ribs.[/QUOTE]
How interesting that you mention this, I was just thinking today that I need to get a scale and actually weight what she’s getting! I am probably overestimating the amount of dry forage by weight (but if I weigh it, I’ll know for sure), and you’re right about the handful thing.
So, ration balancer to replace the alfalfa forage, smaller hole hay net to slow hay consumption, and I’m wondering whether the Accel will be necessary if I’m feeding a ration balancer? The breakdown of all the vitamins and minerals is on the label (two scoops provides more than adequate amounts of copper and zinc), it looks like 14.5% protein per oz. (she gets 2 oz. per day), and the Glanzen contains 18% protein, but she also gets 2 oz. of that per day. I’m wondering how this “computes” into total protein? I should have looked at the protein content of the Alfalfa forage when I was out there today! Obviously without testing the hay, it’s impossible to tell what it contributes. Between 14 and 16% was the recommended amount of protein (800 grams per day?), but how does one calculate this?
I guess it’s a balancing act right now, but if I can reduce the calories without reducing the necessary nutrients, that would be ideal.
Nice to hear that a body score of 6 is okay, I would say she is a 6+.
(I really just need to buy a Premium membership so that I can post pix ;))
Thanks to everyone for providing links and info, I am reading everything I can…
whether you keep the Acel when adding the RB depends on how much of the RB you can feed. For a late gestation mare, the recommended amount would be in the 3lb range. However, that’s not insignificant calories, probably between 4000-4500, so you’ll have to see how that goes. If you have to feed less of that, yes, I would add/keep the v/m supplement.
The average 1100lb horse in light work needs about 700gm protein. that same horse in late gestation needs about 800-900gm, I THINK - can’t find my NRC book to confirm 
But the minute she starts nursing, it’s about 1500gm+.
The amount is calculated based on how much, by weight, you’re feeding, and the protein % in that feedstuff.
1lb = 454gm. 1lb of a 30% ration balancer gives you 136gm protein.
20lb of a 10% hay gives you 908gm.
Thanks, JB!
I guess I will just have to “guesstimate” on the amount of protein in the hay, but if it’s approximately 10% protein, one lb. of the RB plus 20 lbs. of hay should provide enough.
If nothing else, I like to think that this has turned into an informative thread for ALL broodmare owners, not just me!
[QUOTE=Dr. Doolittle;6286150]
How interesting that you mention this, I was just thinking today that I need to get a scale and actually weight what she’s getting! I am probably overestimating the amount of dry forage by weight (but if I weigh it, I’ll know for sure), and you’re right about the handful thing.
So, ration balancer to replace the alfalfa forage, smaller hole hay net to slow hay consumption, and I’m wondering whether the Accel will be necessary if I’m feeding a ration balancer? The breakdown of all the vitamins and minerals is on the label (two scoops provides more than adequate amounts of copper and zinc), it looks like 14.5% protein per oz. (she gets 2 oz. per day), and the Glanzen contains 18% protein, but she also gets 2 oz. of that per day. I’m wondering how this “computes” into total protein? I should have looked at the protein content of the Alfalfa forage when I was out there today! Obviously without testing the hay, it’s impossible to tell what it contributes. Between 14 and 16% was the recommended amount of protein (800 grams per day?), but how does one calculate this?
I guess it’s a balancing act right now, but if I can reduce the calories without reducing the necessary nutrients, that would be ideal.
Nice to hear that a body score of 6 is okay, I would say she is a 6+.
(I really just need to buy a Premium membership so that I can post pix ;))
Thanks to everyone for providing links and info, I am reading everything I can…[/QUOTE]
Until quite recently, I honestly didn’t think that much about the weight, calories and where the calories were coming from. Honestly, my horses have always looked good, healthy and I am a big proponent of free choice hay and minimizing grain. But, I have a very easy keeper gelding who really started taking easy-keeping to a whole new level! That’s where the scale came in and it was very interesting to know exactly how much hay I was feeding (and how fast he was eating it!) and how much the 2 cups of grain actually weighed and the related calories, etc. It’s been very beneficial. And the good part is, once you measure everything once, you have weights for the units of measure and you can adjust accordingly. He has done very well on the ration balancer, I wish I’d started it sooner.
I agree with JB’s assessment on the ration balancer and calories – FWIW, I learned today Triple Crown 30% is 1266 calories per pound (a little less than some others) and very low NSC (completely different topic) so you might look for a RB on the lower calorie side for your mare so you can get the benefit of the nutrition she needs in the full serving without the extra calories adding weight – the extra 250 calories from a 3 lb ration a day do add up! I’ve been using Progressive but have to say the stats on the triple crown did interest me.
[QUOTE=Dr. Doolittle;6286291]
Thanks, JB!
I guess I will just have to “guesstimate” on the amount of protein in the hay, but if it’s approximately 10% protein, one lb. of the RB plus 20 lbs. of hay should provide enough.
If nothing else, I like to think that this has turned into an informative thread for ALL broodmare owners, not just me![/QUOTE]
Just remember, you need the nutrients as well as the protein so in this case you’d probably keep the Accel, right? I agree that 3 lbs (the recommended amount for a broodmare) is a lot (I have a very large WB, intense work on that amount), but I would have a plan for increasing her as she works through her term and has she gets to milk production time. She will drop weight “fast” if she needs isn’t getting enough from the ration balancer (at least my guy did).
Yes, if the hay is 10% or so. You’re going to be lacking by about 50% though when she foals 
If nothing else, I like to think that this has turned into an informative thread for ALL broodmare owners, not just me!
It actually pertains to all horses of all ages/stages/work load/etc. It’s just the numbers are different.
The nutritional requirements vary a LOT from individual to individual, but based on age/weight/work load, the nutritional requirements are about the same, far fewer variations.
Good to know this stuff!
I am going to try to stop somewhere tomorrow (will be driving all over the place, so I figure there must be someplace that sells scales on my way to and from horse barns in this obscenely overdeveloped Northern Va. area :rolleyes:) and buy a scale to weigh my “feedstuffs”.
ljcfoh, any suggestions on what type of scale works best for this? (We don’t OWN a bathroom scale, LOL! I find out my weight twice a year at my medical checkups ;))
ahf has very kindly offered to “crunch the numbers” for me using her account on feedxl.com, but I will first need to know how much everything weighs. Sheesh, I’m thinking that I should have been doing this years ago! It’s tough when you board, feeders often think in terms of “flakes and handfuls and scoops”, and this provides NO real, reliable measurement of how much you’re feeding.
I use my handheld luggage scale from Travelsmith. Weigh the hay net - fill the hay net - weigh it again - subtract and voila.
horse cents, hiorse sense
You miht want consider horse cents$ feed; when I talked to a nutritionist, PhD in Middleurg, She repeatedly recommended complete feeds from the major brands, Purina, Blue Seal; because they are balanced whereas, trying to go it alone, you are liable get get too much of t:no::ohis/ too little:no: of that
[QUOTE=Dr. Doolittle;6286477]
Good to know this stuff!
I am going to try to stop somewhere tomorrow (will be driving all over the place, so I figure there must be someplace that sells scales on my way to and from horse barns in this obscenely overdeveloped Northern Va. area :rolleyes:) and buy a scale to weigh my “feedstuffs”.
ljcfoh, any suggestions on what type of scale works best for this? (We don’t OWN a bathroom scale, LOL! I find out my weight twice a year at my medical checkups ;))
ahf has very kindly offered to “crunch the numbers” for me using her account on feedxl.com, but I will first need to know how much everything weighs. Sheesh, I’m thinking that I should have been doing this years ago! It’s tough when you board, feeders often think in terms of “flakes and handfuls and scoops”, and this provides NO real, reliable measurement of how much you’re feeding.[/QUOTE]
I used a very inexpensive kitchen scale to weigh the grain (The Biggest Loser brand which was perfect for my less than svelte gelding!) and estimated my hay using the bathroom scale. I want to get one of those scales you hang something from for the hay (I think it is for weighing fish?) but just have to figure out where to get one…like this below:
[QUOTE=Carol Ames;6286608]
You miht want consider horse cents$ feed; when I talked to a nutritionist, PhD in Middleurg, She repeatedly recommended complete feeds from the major brands, Purina, Blue Seal; because they are balanced whereas, trying to go it alone, you are liable get get too much of t:no::ohis/ too little:no: of that[/QUOTE]
What is horse cents feed? Is it a brand? I hadn’t heard of it before.
The brands recommended above are major brands and the ration balancers are “complete” in terms of nutrients but the types above are designed for horses that eat hay. I think that’s what you are saying too, right?
You can buy a fish scale from Wal Mart.
It sounds like a bathroom scale would be the best bet, I can weigh the hay bag while full, and just subtract an lb. or two (it doesn’t weigh much), and then weigh the two loose flakes on the scale separately…
Should be interesting to find out how far off I was in my guesstimate!
I do agree that complete feeds are good for broodmares & foaling it is way to easy to over do/ under do certain minerals etc if you add a bit of this or that. I think I saw a post on fat mares and a link to leg issues in foals. Actually the articles I read the reasons were over fed including too many minerals etc, under fed, womb position and hereditary. Or my vets S**t Happens.
It sounds like you are right on top of the situation best wishes on the future foal and a safe delivery.
FYI - complete feeds are slightly different from fortified feeds.
Fortified feeds are feeds with the added vitamins and minerals, fed at 4-7lb minimally (or about 1 for a ration balancer) to the general adult horse (and more for the higher needs horse).
Complete feeds are fortified feeds with higher fiber designed to be the sole ration, if necessary, for horses who can’t eat forage.
One doesn’t need a complete feed for horses eating adequate forage. However, many great fortified feeds are also complete feeds
[QUOTE=Dr. Doolittle;6286905]
It sounds like a bathroom scale would be the best bet, I can weigh the hay bag while full, and just subtract an lb. or two (it doesn’t weigh much), and then weigh the two loose flakes on the scale separately…
Should be interesting to find out how far off I was in my guesstimate![/QUOTE]
Yes, it will certainly get you close…my hay bag didn’t weigh much so I just kept that in there for good measure. You can also weigh a bale (assuming your hay is consistent and have an idea of the per flake weight. I found all kinds of things to weigh with the scale!
Well, I’m a breeder. I also have an air fern broodmare.
To answer your original posed question - Yes, it can lead to deformities, and so can underfeeding. The term “over” and “under” feeding does not necessarily refer to calories. Rather, it refers to nutrition of minerals and vitamins. Overfeeding of calories usually carries along too many minerals and vitamins. The biggest danger with an obese broodmare is the obesity increases her risks during delivery.
Easy-keeping mares are more difficult, but in your case, I would let her graze with a grazing muzzle on - the activity of foraging provides excellent exercise which she REALLY needs (you can also take her for walks, leading her around for some exercise for a couple miles - it would do her a world of good in preparation for foaling).
She can come in for good quality mixed hay (mixed timothy/grass/alfalfa - but no more than 25% alfalfa), but no more weight of hay than she is already getting. Do not feed by the flake. This means nothing. Feed by the weight. Hay included. An easy keeping, nonpregnant horse needs about 2-3% of its body weight in hay - thus a 1200 pound EASY keeping horse needs about 18-24 pounds of hay, depending on body score - if they’re fat, then on the lower end. Thus, an EASY keeping pregnant broodmare needs about 2-4% of her body weight, so roughly 20-25 pounds of hay.
Then I would feed her a balancer to ensure the minerals are right. A balancer has little calories. No grain.
FWIW, her late term pregnancy is going to pull a lot of calories from her, because the final months of gestation is when the foal pulls the most from the mare. Then, after birth, the foal pulls even more off the mare for the first 2 months of suckling. Milk production takes enormous calories.
So, based on the fact you state she is rather on the fat side, I would not increase her hay, but rather maintain it. Just add the vitamin/mineral balancer. Watch her body score carefully. You want her to lose only very slowly and never let her go below having 1 cm of padding on her ribs. Or you could just maintain her as is for now and let the nursing pull her weight down.
Once she is nursing, you may actually have to increase her hay to maintain a rib padding of about 1 cm. No more, no less. Maintain her on a balancer during suckling.
Not all mares need grain. You and I both have one that do not. But the balancer would be important if you can get your hands on one.
What I do for my air fern is I tend to feed her timothy/grass mix hay. Timothy has a certain amount of protein. I dole out measured weights of alfalfa to ensure the lysine and extra protein gets into the diet. No grain, just a balancer. She foals out fine and maintains very good body condition.
After she is weaned off, if you have not bred her back, you can then allow the rib fat padding to decrease further so that there seems to be just a thin film of fat of under her skin when the palm of your hand brushes her ribs. When it comes to the business of being a broodmare though, you want a bit extra. Once she’s finished with broodmare duty, she can reduce to a very svelte figure.
[QUOTE=rodawn;6288154]
Well, I’m a breeder. I also have an air fern broodmare.
To answer your original posed question - Yes, it can lead to deformities, and so can underfeeding. The term “over” and “under” feeding does not necessarily refer to calories. Rather, it refers to nutrition of minerals and vitamins. Overfeeding of calories usually carries along too many minerals and vitamins. The biggest danger with an obese broodmare is the obesity increases her risks during delivery.
Easy-keeping mares are more difficult, but in your case, I would let her graze with a grazing muzzle on - the activity of foraging provides excellent exercise which she REALLY needs (you can also take her for walks, leading her around for some exercise for a couple miles - it would do her a world of good in preparation for foaling).
She can come in for good quality mixed hay (mixed timothy/grass/alfalfa - but no more than 25% alfalfa), but no more weight of hay than she is already getting. Do not feed by the flake. This means nothing. Feed by the weight. Hay included. An easy keeping, nonpregnant horse needs about 2-3% of its body weight in hay - thus a 1200 pound EASY keeping horse needs about 18-24 pounds of hay, depending on body score - if they’re fat, then on the lower end. Thus, an EASY keeping pregnant broodmare needs about 2-4% of her body weight, so roughly 20-25 pounds of hay.
Then I would feed her a balancer to ensure the minerals are right. A balancer has little calories. No grain.
FWIW, her late term pregnancy is going to pull a lot of calories from her, because the final months of gestation is when the foal pulls the most from the mare. Then, after birth, the foal pulls even more off the mare for the first 2 months of suckling. Milk production takes enormous calories.
So, based on the fact you state she is rather on the fat side, I would not increase her hay, but rather maintain it. Just add the vitamin/mineral balancer. Watch her body score carefully. You want her to lose only very slowly and never let her go below having 1 cm of padding on her ribs. Or you could just maintain her as is for now and let the nursing pull her weight down.
Once she is nursing, you may actually have to increase her hay to maintain a rib padding of about 1 cm. No more, no less. Maintain her on a balancer during suckling.
Not all mares need grain. You and I both have one that do not. But the balancer would be important if you can get your hands on one.
What I do for my air fern is I tend to feed her timothy/grass mix hay. Timothy has a certain amount of protein. I dole out measured weights of alfalfa to ensure the lysine and extra protein gets into the diet. No grain, just a balancer. She foals out fine and maintains very good body condition.
After she is weaned off, if you have not bred her back, you can then allow the rib fat padding to decrease further so that there seems to be just a thin film of fat of under her skin when the palm of your hand brushes her ribs. When it comes to the business of being a broodmare though, you want a bit extra. Once she’s finished with broodmare duty, she can reduce to a very svelte figure.[/QUOTE]
This is great and reasonable advice, thanks! ahf has been helping me with evaluating what I’m feeding vs what she needs in terms of nutrients (using her nutrition program–SO helpful!) The missing nutrients were salt–which she is getting; she has a white salt block in the pasture, and a mineral block in her stall–licks both. Only the mineral block (no info on the white block :() has iodine, along with other minerals. A bit concerning that feeding excessive minerals can be problematic! Her diet is also apparently low in selenium, I bought selenium/vitamin E supplement today, fed it to her in the field and added it to her supplement baggie for tomorrow. Obviously I have to be careful not to “oversupplement” selenium due to potential toxicity, but she needs 2.7 mg, and is getting about half that–I will give her additional Selenium to bring it “up to the recommended amount” between now and when I get a Ration Balancer. She is also low on Vitamin A, but if I feed her more Alfalfa forage, that will increase her intake of that vitamin–maybe I should increase her intake of that for the time being?
I bought a scale today, tried to weigh the forage and the scoop, but it was a digital scale, and wouldn’t register that light a weight Yes, I can put something heavier on it, weigh it, then RE-weigh with the scoop, then RE-weigh with the scoop and the forage, and do the math. I had literally not a spare minute to do this today, can do it tomorrow. I am guesstimating that the Alfalfa forage weighs only ounces (maybe a pound, dry?), and the small handful of Legends pellets, again–ounces! I DID weigh the filled hay bag + extra hay, and the total was 26 lbs. I figure the hay bag weighs about 2 lbs. My BM says she doesn’t quite finish everything in the haybag, so there is a little left over–but the timothy the BM is providing is REALLY crappy right now! :sigh: She Hoovers the nice Orchard Grass…
I try to longe her in the pasture as many days of the week as I can, at least this gets her moving. I can try to handwalk her (this is my busiest time of year, so grooming her and picking feet and stretching her and flyspraying her and longeing her is taking up my allotted “time with the in-foal mare who is not being ridden” :lol:), but no grazing muzzle is necessary, there is no grass. There IS a lot of good grass outside her pasture, so very tempting for her to grass dive when hand walked, but she WILL be polite.
It sounds like a RB is the answer, and my teeniest hole haybag should be here tomorrow, I will put the better hay in that to slow her consumption in her stall. Should I keep her on the Alfalfa forage for the Vitamin A and the protein, even after she starts getting the RB? If so, how much?
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