Does overfeeding (and oversupplementing) mares lead to limb abnormalities

[ljcfoh]

[QUOTE=Dr. Doolittle;6288910]

It sounds like a RB is the answer, and my teeniest hole haybag should be here tomorrow, I will put the better hay in that to slow her consumption in her stall. Should I keep her on the Alfalfa forage for the Vitamin A and the protein, even after she starts getting the RB? If so, how much?[/QUOTE]

I think it depends on whether or not she needs the extra calories at this stage. If she does not, you could drop the Alfalfa forage and add it back in when it is time to bump up her calorie load. Depending on the RB, it is going to provide about 1300-1500 calories per pound. I believe the alfalfa forage would be around 900-1100 calories per pound. So, based on her “easy keeper” status the RB might offset the Alfalfa for her current calorie requirements.

I am sure JB will have even more salient advice on that

[ahf]

She is not planning on going to a ration balancer. She’s planning to go with a supplement. THere is one at KER an one at Uckele (base mix 55 - 4 oz I believe.) that will work well with the hay she has access to.

The current diet is not hugely off-base. About 105% of her DE. The OP could drop the TC chopped alfalfa for now, and though Vit A would be then deficient, switching off the Glanzen and Accel and onto the base mix 55 should fix that.

Add the alfalfa back in upon lactation and her needs should be met.

[Dr_Doolittle]

[QUOTE=ljcfoh;6288922]
I think it depends on whether or not she needs the extra calories at this stage. If she does not, you could drop the Alfalfa forage and add it back in when it is time to bump up her calorie load. Depending on the RB, it is going to provide about 1300-1500 calories per pound. I believe the alfalfa forage would be around 900-1100 calories per pound. So, based on her “easy keeper” status the RB might offset the Alfalfa for her current calorie requirements.

I am sure JB will have even more salient advice on that ;)[/QUOTE]

Okay. Will weigh the dang stuff when I go out tomorrow, but need to order the RB so that it can get her in a reasonable time frame; sounds like it will be the nutritional answer to all of this, thus taking some worries off my plate!

I will also try to get some pix of her if I have time.

[Dr_Doolittle]

[QUOTE=ahf;6288991]
She is not planning on going to a ration balancer. She’s planning to go with a supplement. THere is one at KER an one at Uckele (base mix 55 - 4 oz I believe.) that will work well with the hay she has access to.

The current diet is not hugely off-base. About 105% of her DE. The OP could drop the TC chopped alfalfa for now, and though Vit A would be then deficient, switching off the Glanzen and Accel and onto the base mix 55 should fix that.

Add the alfalfa back in upon lactation and her needs should be met.[/QUOTE]

LOL, I just sent you an e-mail, then got back on the BB

Thanks for the clarification–in your opinion, though, would it just be easier to go with the RB and drop all of these other supplements? Or order the Ukele instead, and keep up with the Alfalfa forage? I can always give the other supps to my students…Pasture in this area is pretty crappy, most horses benefit from supplements to bring them up to nutritional speed!

[ahf]

Need to add… once the KER or Uckele supplement comes in, drop the Vit E + SEL supplement you got today.

[JB]

IMVHO, I would not be just adding almost 3mg of Selenium without first testing her blood level. If she’s quite in the normal range, that bit could put her on the high side in a few months.

It almost doesn’t matter how much she is getting - what matters is what her body has based on what she’s getting. If she tests low, then adding Se is a good thing, and then you retest in about 3 months.

[Dr_Doolittle]

[QUOTE=ahf;6289001]
Need to add… once the KER or Uckele supplement comes in, drop the Vit E + SEL supplement you got today.[/QUOTE]

Okay, thanks!!

Off to bang head off wall…Oy Vey!

:winkgrin:

[ahf]

I would stick to the supplement. It doesn’t have the protein and DE impact that a RB would. SInce those needs are being met through her hay - I always prefer to go with more hay, less other “stuff”.

I had an easy keeper (broodmare) that did great on forage, base mix and 2 lbs of beet pulp.

[JB]

I went back and read and saw you said she needs 2.7mg Se and is only getting half that - my bad.

Still, I would test her blood first before just adding an Se supplement.

[ljcfoh]

[QUOTE=ahf;6288991]
She is not planning on going to a ration balancer. She’s planning to go with a supplement. THere is one at KER an one at Uckele (base mix 55 - 4 oz I believe.) that will work well with the hay she has access to.

The current diet is not hugely off-base. About 105% of her DE. The OP could drop the TC chopped alfalfa for now, and though Vit A would be then deficient, switching off the Glanzen and Accel and onto the base mix 55 should fix that.

Add the alfalfa back in upon lactation and her needs should be met.[/QUOTE]

Huh, I think I am confused as she said she is ordering the ration balancer?

[ahf]

Seleinium:
Per the AAEP, the FDA RDA for the “average” horse is currently 3mg per day. This is a full mg higher than the old 1980 requirement.

Peace of mind, however, is priceless. A blood test and a conversation with a nutritionist would be definitive.

[Dr_Doolittle]

ahf has been kind enough to lead me through the forest of “what’s best, nutritionally”, she had suggested I go with the Ukele base mix, since that should contain everything my mare needs (and just keep her on the hay she’s getting, also add the Alfalfa forage back into the equation–once she foals, or at 11 months’ gestation?)

Others have suggested I get a ration balancer instead–either way, I could stop feeding my existing supplements and feed one OR the other of these things instead, yes? The Ukele is a supplement, not a pelleted RB type thing (which would contain more calories), so since she doesn’t need any additional calories at this point, would this be a better option? Or should I think about needing to increase her calories when she is about one month out?? Could I do this by feeding the Ukele and also adding in more Alfalfa forage? Thoughts?

:sigh:

Too tired and am going to bed, will have to think more about this tomorrow…

Meanwhile, please feel free to “discuss it among yourselves”

And where can I find a nutritionist?

[ahf]

[QUOTE=ljcfoh;6289022]
Huh, I think I am confused as she said she is ordering the ration balancer?[/QUOTE]

I think there is general confusion on this thread on the two terms.

[ahf]

either way, I could stop feeding my existing supplements and feed one OR the other of these things instead, yes?

You got it! One of the other, but not in addition to the Glanzan and Accel (and Vit E and SEL)

I used both for years. THe supplement for my easy keeper, and the ration balancer for my hard keeper.

And where can I find a nutritionist?

THere I can’t help you. For years I used Dr. Eleanor Kellon, but she is now the staff equine nutritionist at Uckele.

I don’t think on the 12 years I’ve been on this BB, I’ve ever posted this much on one thread. I too, am off to bed!

[M_O_Connor]

KER offers free consultations at:

http://www.ker.com/consultation/HorseOwners/ask.html

Kathleen Crandall, one of KER’s nutritionists, is local to you in Berryville, VA…She and I exchanged emails about my 4 yo filly/mare, (As Di Ani Z, in foal to Jaguar Mail and due in 3 weeks), who is an extreme air fern. Ribs? We haven’t seen any on her since birth!

As per Kathleen’s advice, she has been fed the KER formulated CFC Pacemaker 25% Supplement pellets (ration balancer) at the rate of 1.5 lbs per day, increased to 2 lbs per day in her last trimester. We had pasture right through the winter, which pretty much meant she needed no hay supplementation until we moved her to the dry paddock she is in now to keep her off any fescue. She ‘vaccumed’ the ‘dry’ paddock, which had ‘poor’ grass in it for about a week prior to deciding that the grass hay we gave her was worth her while.

Alternatively,…“if you need to go extreme with cutting calories the options are to feed a vitamin/mineral pellet in a handful of feed (ie IR Pellet - www.kerx.com/products/IRPellet ) or mix CFC EquiChoice Minerals with enough feed that the horse will eat them.”

More information at:

www.ker.com/library --just use whatever search terms you please, such as “broodmare nutrition and limb development”
which brought up the following search results (along with some google ads at the top of the search results which I am seeing for the first time! Ignore those and scroll down a little…):

KER Library search results for “broodmare nutrition and limb development”

[M_O_Connor]

Timely article on KER’s FB wall today:

http://www.equinews.com/article/dietary-factors-equine-developmental-orthopedic-disease

[Dr_Doolittle]

I actually e-mailed Kathleen (KER) back in February, and got a nutrition analysis: at the time, she said everything was “at the proper levels”, except for salt (she gets this in her stall and outside), and that the selenium was “a little low” (she sent me a graph.)

I talked to ERC this morning and asked what THEY feed the mares; my mare will be going down there about 3 weeks before her due date and will stay there for a week or two after the foal is born. They feed Legends Mare and Foal (textured), and Orchard Grass and an Alfalfa Mix hay. Less of the Alfalfa mix for “air ferns”

ahf is running the numbers for me.

Maybe I should e-mail Kathleen again and ask her about all of this?, problem is that it might take her awhile to get back to me!

[M_O_Connor]

Send an email to KER–if she doesn’t get back to you, someone else will…

Mine ships off to Laurel Inc, where she was born, next week. It’s getting exciting–we’re all going to be grannies.

[Dr_Doolittle]

[QUOTE=M. O’Connor;6289775]
Send an email to KER–if she doesn’t get back to you, someone else will…

Mine ships off to Laurel Inc, where she was born, next week. It’s getting exciting–we’re all going to be grannies.[/QUOTE]

Thanks M O’C!

ahf squared me away re: a dietary plan, one that will “dovetail” into what ERC will be feeding: Legends Mare and Foal (textured), and Orchard Grass hay, with additional Alfalfa mix hay. I am also putting her on this:

http://www.uckeleequine.com/buy/p5515/

Whew!

LOL re: yes, relate to the grannies comment–hell, I’m old enough to be one! My husband calls me “grandma” when it comes to our younger dog AND the foal-to-be. My daughter is 17, hoping I am not a grandma to a HUMAN anytime soon!

[ahf]

To expand on the OP’s post above…because the OP’s mare was going somewhere to foal out - it made the most sense to start with what the foaling facility feeds (which is Legends Mare & Foal) and work from that. Otherwise there is too much switching around of rations, and asking for trouble.

The goal was to get the diet as forage-based as possible, and not have to feed the recommended 8 - 12 lbs of concentrates per day. THat would put this easy keeper upside down on the concentrates/forage balance.

Buy adding one ounce of the BM55 (instead of normal four ounces - which would be oversupplementation), the diet overcame the issue of feeding below recommended levels of concentrates.