This type of question is about tort law which is largely state specific (and often fact dependent) and therefore very hard to answer broadly in the abstract.
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I was showing my baby horse in dressage for the first time this past weekend, so had a case of the nerves. I have a barnmate who was also at the show, also showing for the first time this year. When barnmate gets nervous, she talks All.The. Time. about nothing. Then, the people across the aisle put their young dogs in stalls while they were showing and there was massive howling and digging to get under the stall doors and general mayhem. When I have a case of the nerves, I can handle barnmate or dogs, but not together. I seriously had to go hide in the tack stall to get away from all of them.
Canât ban the barn mate, but no dogs would have been a help.
(Horse did fine, wonderful actually, so allâs well that ends well!)
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Has Lynn Reed taken her dogs to shows since the attack? Amongst all the comments on Facebook, someone said âsheâs at Devon.â
Youâre absolutely right that they could be sued for gross negligence not to mention the fact that spectators at USEF horse shows have not signed any release of liability.
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Because quite a few dog owners put zippo zilcho effort into training their dogs. Seriously. Anyone who knows me in real life will tell you that I like animals better than most humans. But Iâm not fond of a lot of dogs. Why? Because most people are too damn lazy to train them. Itâs disgusting and selfish because itâs invariably the poor dog that suffers - itâs the one that gets euthenized when something like this happens. I had a beautiful English Mastiff that weighed 265 lbs. He had practically perfect manners on his own but you better believe I did a lot of training with him, anyway. Having a badly behaved dog that size would be like walking around pointing a loaded gun with the safety off at people.
Iâve seen the argument that people bring them to shows because theyâre on road for months traveling the circuit and itâs cost prohibitive to find a caregiver in their absence or that theyâll miss the dog and the dog them. They shouldnât have a dog, then. My kids have asked many times if we can get a dog again. And every time, my reply is that weâre not home enough to have a dog. Itâs not fair to the dog. And realistically, training upper level horses is such an all-consuming task that few people are going to have the time left at the end of the day to give the dog the attention it deserves. I canât imagine that itâs fun for the dog to be confined to a crate or a stall for 3/4 of itâs waking hours.
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A trainer we know occasionally brings her impeccably behaved Himalayan to shows when the weather is cool. The cat walks on a harness and leash and sits quietly in her arms or next to her ringside. Last Halloween, he was sporting a pair of angel wings!
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If the stewards and/or show management arenât doing their jobs: https://www.usef.org/compete/competition-evaluation
Thatâs if thereâs any will on the part of USEF to enforce the rules. One can hope? Iâm mildly surprised there hasnât already been some legal trainwreck with somebody challenging results because of loose dogs, though.
PS: as far as TBs in the hunter ring go, I donât think the hunters have changed as much as TBs have. Find me a nice old-school TB and I think it could still do very well. You probably wonât find it for $500 off of a flat-track backstretch anymore though.
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Safety and legal questions aside, another observation: I see how some of these pets are treated at shows â itâs as if they are accessories and part of an ownerâs personal brand, not individuals with needs as far as comfort and care. Maybe people that travel every weekend ought to think about whether dog ownership is really in the interests of the animal.
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These types of arguments about affordability are always ridiculous in these contexts. This isnât health care or property taxes - literally NO ONE is forcing you to own a dog plus multiple horses and to take the horses to shows. This is a luxury hobby you WOULD LIKE to participate in, but the world does not owe you horse shows in the manner that is most convenient and affordable for you personally. If it gets to the point that your care resources are being stretched thin by the competing needs of multiple pets no one is forcing you to have, perhaps you should cut down on the luxury hobby activities nobody is forcing you to participate in.
I personally believe that well behaved, leashed and QUIETLY stalled or crated dogs should be allowed at shows, but unfortunately it is obvious that bad actors are not disciplined by show management or banned. I also do not want my 20 pounders attacked by somebody elseâs off leash @$$, so based on these stories it seems for the safety of my own dogs it would be better to leave them. Thankfully as part of responsible dog ownership I have several excellent dog sitting resources in my back pocket, within my dog care budget, both who watch them at my place or who I can take them to.
It would also be helpful if show managements, knowing this is an issue many horse people face, would reserve an aisle of stalls for a dog sitting situation for a reasonable fee. It seems like an obvious and potentially revenue boosting solution to me. Then again, if the rogue cane corsos are now in the same dog sitting area as my guys, not sure if I want to rely on the competence of strangers (or worse, âvolunteersâ) to get that right.
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And itâs equally ridiculous to assume you know my personal and/or financial situation. Perhaps Iâm saving for something else, like repaving my driveway? Perhaps I am trying to fill (or refill) my emergency vet bill fund? Maybe Iâve got an enormous medical bill of my motherâs that Iâm trying to help her with, so Iâm thin on liquid at the moment?
I was making the case that I donât think dogs should be banned at horse shows because I canât afford dog care constantly, which if you price it out is more expensive than board. I also own a dog that doesnât do well with strangers (fear, not aggression), hence the reason she stays in my trailer instead of going into the busier places of the show. If it came down to âput the dog in doggie day care or donât showâ, I wouldnât show. I already show at local unrecognized stuff only a few times a year, so to cut that out wouldnât hurt me any (nor would it add any appreciable liquid cash flow).
I donât know your personal financial situation. You can take your financial advice for me and put it back where it came from.
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For liability and practice reasons, I think this is a dangerous concept. You have no control over which dogs arrive, what type, how well they get along, what veterinary issues they have, what training issues they have etc. Plus a row of stalls is not set up properly to house dogs of different sizes/types safely at a horse show (it might get too hot for a snub nosed type dog, even with an xpen it might be escape-able for a small climbing type, etc.) Watching strange dogs is not a job for some random person at a horse show. I feel nervous even leaving my dog at a Camp Bow Wow type place, and they have trained staff and a high staff-to-dog ratio. But even then, pack dynamics can change in an instant and all it takes is one second of inattention and you have a terrible fight. If people cannot keep their dogs with them, leashed, under control, and with enough attention that the dog and others are safe-- the dog should just STAY HOME. I donât want Camp Bow Wow at the horse show. I just want to horse show at the horse show.
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Most shows Iâve been too (whether rated or schooling) either donât allow dogs or people simply arenât bringing them.
As for general dog presence amongst horses, if they are well trained Iâm ok with it. I used to board at one board where one boarder would bring in their dogs. No one had an issue with it because the dogs were super well behaved. They would usually under a chair in the arena if the owner was riding, or would sit by the barn door watching what was going on.
Iâve also been at barns where the ownerâs dogs ran amok. Imagine schooling a horse over jumps and a giant dog runs in and out of the arena. Totally unacceptable!!!
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It isnt financial advice, itâs just pointing out that making the âaffordabilityâ argument about completely discretionary luxury activities is a little silly. This argument shows up in several iterations on COTH, but also (for a non horse example) when people ask florists to give them a discount on their wedding flowers since they really want them but have spent $10,000 on the venue and catering already, and so on.
It doesnât matter if you are saving for repaving your driveway or a new yacht or if you always give 50% of your income to the Mother Theresa fund. Itâs equivalent to me complaining that I canât afford botox anymore if the dermatologist raises their fees because I also choose to own two homes and have two mortgages to pay and what if Iâm saving up for a ski vacation, has anyone considered that??
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Yeah, on second thought I agree with you.
Iâd like to see space for well-behaved and well-managed dogs (heck, I bring mine to my office job and they stay under my desk at my feet all day, so believe me, Iâm all for it!), but if show managers are unwilling to collectively enforce reasonable limitations thatâs an unfortunate situation.
I also wonder, if this personâs dogs misbehave at HITS, what happens when she wants to go to Capital Challenge or Pin Oak or whatever. Different shows are run by different managements so short of coming up with a USEF blacklist for rated shows Iâm not sure how they would ban specific people who are hell bent on being bad actors from bringing rogue dogs.
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You do know itâs possible to spend money on a luxury sport and still be on a budget, right? I hate to say it, but your posts really seem like youâve never had to watch your money, or have to deal with what happens when youâre broke.
Sure, itâs a luxury sport. But I can still try to do it as affordably as I can. I would have a similar response if suddenly the show grounds wouldnât allow me to sleep/camp in my trailer - I should be able to afford a hotel room if I have two horses (ps, one is fully retired and never comes to shows, but I digress) and show⌠but that isnât in my budget. A show ground saying I canât camp would eliminate my ability to show there.
Does any of this make sense to you? Or is the silver spoon stuck too deep?
Edit: I am in a fine place financially. But Iâm here because I watch my money⌠not because I have an endless flow of it.
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I donât think youâre reading or understanding her posts. Sheâs saying both having a dog and showing are optional and if you canât budget to do both adequately just donât do one or the other. Or cut back. That simple. Horse shows are not dog parks. Make arrangements for the dog or donât show.
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Iâve agreed with her. We are having a discussion here whether or not dogs should be allowed. I voted yes because I canât afford dog care and I manage my dog well, and she jumped on indicating my request was ridiculous because of how much money it takes to even show.
That is irrelevant to the conversation, and reeks of someone who has never had to deal with unexpected cash flow problems.
I wonât comment on it anymore, but good for the person who has never had money issues. Shame on that same person for disparaging those that might, or those that have a paranoia of it. Again, Iâm not showing every weekend at rated or recognized events. Iâm all in at around $120 for a weekend, and that includes fuel. To insinuate that adding $150 for a weekend dog care would be a drop in the bucket shows how out of touch some people are in regards to others and their expenses.
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I own high drive dogs. I train mine and others. I love my dogs. They do not go to horse shows. Period.
Why? Because in my experience horse people have some of the most poorly behaved dogs. I donât trust other peopleâs dogs. And most of my dogs wonât tolerate socially inept strange dogs. In the dog world they donât have to.
I am so sick of stories like this. Enough is enough.
Horse shows are for horses. Leave your damn dogs at home.
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I literally never said this.
That is irrelevant to the conversation, and reeks of someone who has never had to deal with unexpected cash flow problems.
Yeah ok. Iâve been laid off in the great recession when I owned three horses. Guess what, dog care during hirse shows what not my most pressing financial concern at the time. I sold one, leased out the other, quit lessons and shows, and moved 1500 miles where board for my remaining sale horse would be affordable while I attempted to piece my life back together. Like many in my generation, Iâve spent the past decade rebounding from that recession. Itâs in part because I have dealt with REAL money issues that I find your lament about $150 in dog care so you can go off and horse show to be so entitled and, frankly, ridiculous. Newsflash: $150 in dog care while horseshowing one of your multiple horses is not anything that 95% of this country would consider a legitimate financial concern.ðŸËâðŸËâðŸËâ
I wonât comment on it anymore, but good for the person who has never had money issues. Shame on that same person for disparaging those that might, or those that have a paranoia of it. Again, Iâm not showing every weekend at rated or recognized events. Iâm all in at around $120 for a weekend, and that includes fuel. To insinuate that adding $150 for a weekend dog care would be a drop in the bucket shows how out of touch some people are in regards to others and their expenses.
vxf111 seems to be able to read my posts for comprehension and was attempting to help you out.
Of course I watch my money and budget according to my priorities. If I didnât, I would own 3 horses instead of 0, show in Florida every winter instead of staying in the icy north, and have more than just 2 dogs. Thereâs lots of luxuries I would like to have or participate in that are out of my budget, and there have been times where the costs of time off work plus dog care plus whatever else have made a desired activity expensive past my budget priorities. There were times when I was ok spending 30% of my income on horses. Now I focus on saving for retirement and building passive income streams.
However, you donât see me arguing with the prices other people set or rules they enact based on MY personal budgeting priorities. You dont see me saying that board owners in my area should charge less so I can do all the things I want with horses and also save for retirement and also own a home and also do whatever else I want to do.
The same way that âGosh, my dream wedding is getting really expensive for me, could the venue perhaps NOT require a catering minimum,I mean,then I canât afford the photographer I wantâ is not really a reasonable argument for why the venue should make rules according to one clientsâ budgeting priorities.
Everyone budgets. Not everyone feels that THEIR personal budgeting needs should influence other venueâs rules or other vendorâs pricing models.
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If the same dog attacked two smaller dogs on the HITS property in 2017 and a police report was filed, why wasnât any action taken to ban the dog from the show grounds? Why didnât the local authorities quarantine the dog? Both the trainer and HITS management have a huge liability problem if the childâs parents decide to take legal action.
I was personally chased and bitten by two small dogs while walking in a neighbor on my lunch hour. I called the cityâs animal control department, and the dogs were seized by animal control. Evidently this wasnât the first biting incident for these two dogs. Regardless of the environment (at a USEF house show, in a neighborhood), most municipalities have laws in place regarding dangerous dogs, which involves seizing the dogs, quarantining them at the ownerâs expense until dogs are found to be free of rabies and after the first or second offense the dog can be euthanized. Least anyone accuse of being a dog hater, I have owned pet dogs for 30 years. Pet owners need to be responsible for their pets, and if they arenât there should be consequences.
On another topic, I also happen to fox hunt (as well as having shown hunters at rated shows for over 20 years). To compare fox hunting to show hunters is like comparing ice hockey to figure skating. Yes, both sports involve riding horses over jumps. Fox hunters arenât judged (unless at a hunter trial) and are accustomed to riding in a group with hounds. Many fine show hunters would fail miserably at fox hunting because they canât cope with hounds running through the woods, terrain changes, riding at a gallop in a group, etc.
While I enjoy fox hunting and I fox hunt my former show hunter I would be thoroughly pissed if a loose dog chased us on course. While my horse is accustomed to dogs, if I am showing in the hunter ring my horse is being judged on an even pace among other attributes. Having a dog loose is a distraction and doesnât allow the rider to show his or her horse to its best advantage. Now, if this were a fox hunter trail that would be an entirely different matter, but we are discussing USEF recognized hunter jumper shows, NOT field hunter trials.
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