I am fairly new to the dog show world (conformation) and dog breeding. I have had two litters but still consider myself a novice! This past weekend I helped out with reviving puppies after a planned c-section on a Pembroke Welsh corgi bitch. This was this bitch’s first litter and the c-section was preformed on the 63rd day post ovulation, while she was in pre labor. The breeder feels that planned c-section are easier on the mom and puppies with less risk of losing any puppies. How common is this practice and what are the pros and cons? (I realize in some breeds it is probably more common/necessary than other breeds). Do first time moms “get” being moms without going through the birth process? Can you really accurately predict when the pups are ready to be born and not take them too early? Would love to hear any thoughts and experiences! TIA
It depends on the breed. French Bulldogs/English Bulldogs have to have C-sections, those puppy heads just don’t fit through their pelvis. Boston Terriers…it depends.
Labs & Goldens…puppies just pop out.
If you have a breed with a history of difficult births, why not. All the hormones are there to make her a Mom-dog.
I had one bitch that needed a c section but she was already in heavy labor. She had uterine inertia and after she had the litter I spayed her as we do not keep or breed bitches that need c sections. She killed one of her puppies within a hour or two of coming home and I had to stay with her for 48 hours to make sure she did not kill the rest. In fairness, she may have killed it because it was not normal, or she was not fully out of anesthesia… but I still spayed her and none of her puppies were bred either. BTW, her dam also needed c sections.
I only keep bitches who free whelp and I just cannot justify those who schedule c sections as a matter of course!!! But I also do natural breedings as opposed to AIs ( when both bitch and sire are in the same location). I know some breeders ONLY AI and I cannot agree with that either. I have never missed a breeding when I did a natural breeding as my males know when the bitch is ready to be bred.
There are exceptions to every rule, as when a puppy may be too big for the birth canal, but to c section as a matter of course is just against my ethics.
how can a major surgery be “easier” for the mom than natural birth?
I’m with ^ , if the bitch can’t breed and birth naturally, don’t breed her again and don’t breed her offspring.
Not a fan of scheduled c-sections. Very few people do all the progesterone testing that is needed for you to safely schedule one. Gale needed one the other week. Three puppies in the body of the uterus at once=log jam, nobody could get out. First time mom, and she was clueless. It took about 48 hours for her to “get” it. She’s now a fabulous mom. It was definitely harder on her than natural labor would have been. I spent about three days sleeping for a couple of hours, feed puppies, supervise and repeat. I did not spay her, she’s young and neither I or my friend who did her c-section have any reason to believe she’s at much risk of needing another c-section. Her mom, grandmom, and great grandmom were all easy free whelpers.
Why were you reviving puppies instead of the vet/RVTs doing the surgery?And why did the pups need to be revived?
The puppies need to be revived (not true CPR) because they are under the effects of the general anesthesia that the mom is under. The vet is of course mid-surgery. the puppies come fast and furious and since there are often more puppies than support staff, it’s common to have lay people there to assist. My husband is an expert puppy reviver because I call him to help out when I’m cutting a c-section or coordinating the puppy part while my friend cuts. DH and I took care of all 7 of Gale’s by ourselves, but more hands would have been good.
Yes, the experience of parturition does affect maternal behavior in dogs. All that licking of pups, and ingestion of placentas and fluids does produce changes in behavior and in hormones. The subsequent nursing of the pups between births also stimulates oxytocin and other hormones important to initiate and maintain maternal behavior. This effect has also been studied in rats, and you may be interested to read those papers. The author just slipped my mind…Rosenblatt, I think.
After a C -section, care must be taken in introducing the puppies, and yes sometimes the bitch kills them. That being said, if they are introduced carefully and nurse, the oxytocin release often stimulates enough maternal behavior that then allows the bitch to learn to become an excellent mother. And some bitches will kill their puppies even if they do go through parturition for a variety of causes. Maternal behavior can never be taken for granted. It is complex, and involves learning, experience, physiology, and genetics.
Personally, I feel it is something that I definitely feel is important to select for in a breeding program. I have been fortunate to have had great mothers. I understand the need for C-sections but fortunately have only had to do one over the years, and she turned out to be a wonderful mother, after some very tense moments initially when I wasn’t sure if those huge teeth were going to consume the puppies or lick them! Fortunately the licking won out! When mom weighs 165 and pup weighs 1 1/2 pounds, there is little room for error.
I should add that planned C-sections are not the norm in Irish Wolfhounds, although emergency ones are not uncommon because of either uterine inertia in the midst of a large litter, or a huge or “stuck” puppy.
One situation that sometimes leads to a planned C-section in wolfhounds is if there is only one puppy. Sometimes one puppy is not enough to initiate labor with such a size discrepancy, so some breeders opt for a planned C-section in that circumstance. Often breeders ultrasound to confirm pregnancy and then xray in the days before whelping to try to count the puppies so you have some idea of what to expect and when you are done. Not foolproof, but it helps.
Houndhill: just wanted to jump in because - Irish Wolfhounds!
I am not an experienced dog breeder, but I love sighthounds and, specifically, Irish Wolfhounds. They are such a small breed in numbers (though relatively well known) that you often don’t find those experienced in owning and especially in breeding.
Interesting insights, all. We would like to have a show dog at some point, and so may end up becoming more familiar with dog breeding. I don’t see myself ever being a major breeder, but if you end up with a successful dog or bitch, it can happen that you are involved in the process. So I always love to increase my knowledge in this area (and all others animal related, really, haha).
I raised and showed Labs after getting married and giving up horses. My first girl was just a fantastic show dog, so it just sort of all fell into place. My girls had just 3 litters in all, and only because I had a fantastic mentor/breeder close by. First girl had a tough time with her 2nd, and had to have a C section, so that was it for her. I, too, was part of the gang at the vet’s receiving and “reviving” pups, although all of hers did pretty well on their own quickly. She had the same success as the first litter - 8 pups, 1 death within a day. She was an outstanding mom both times, and kept her babies well fed and immaculate. Her second litter was all boys! Vet said he had never seen that. A beautiful Dad that we had traveled quite a distance to have her bred, but mentor and I didn’t use him again, and I didn’t keep one as I preferred girls. Of course the next couple of years his dogs were all over the map with wins, and looking at the boys from that litter, I wished…
And now, I have an adopted Irish Wolfhound - got her at 5 - many raised eyebrows as that’s late to own one, but she is very healthy and happy now at 7. Just a lovely dog. Wish I had the funds to have both breeds now, but now there’s the horse again. 
Enjoyed reading of your litter - brings back fond memories. But I feel to really do it right, one definitely has to have good people around, and be prepared for anything.
Bort84, I have a puppy in Houston! Well actually, he is three years old and 220 pounds, but he will always be my baby although he has a wonderful owner who absolutely dotes on him. I have visited him when I judged out there a couple of years ago. They are always “family” when you have poured so much of yourself into them.
CVPeg, bless your heart for adopting a “mature” hound! They are a treasure, yes the short lifespan is a heartbreak, but you just treasure every day with them.
Sorry OP to hijack the thread!
Irish Wolfhounds are a difficult breed in some ways, they certainly do not suit everyone, and are not easy to breed or lose, but they do suit me and I feel fortunate to share my life with them.
[QUOTE=wendy;6110494]
how can a major surgery be “easier” for the mom than natural birth?
I’m with ^ , if the bitch can’t breed and birth naturally, don’t breed her again and don’t breed her offspring.[/QUOTE]
Ain’t that the truth. I’ve had two C-sections and it is not easier. I’m in the camp of if a dog can’t deliver naturally, she shouldn’t be bred.
So glad to see there are other responsible breeders that won’t breed a bitch that needs c sections. There are so many breeders that seem to use them routinely…I guess not unlike some humans that are doing them so they can schedule time off work, mom can get her flight etc.
In approx. 50 litters over 25 years, we had two sections, both for deformed puppies. Thankfully, we started under an old bet that used the “wait them out” philosophy. We never lost a bitch and lost only 3 puppies in all those years, including the two deformed ones…
Wow, what breed, equinedriver?
I’m pretty sure our local pack of foxhounds has rarely if ever had a c-section, I will have to ask…I was present at one whelping and was impressed with the ease and pace of it, compared to my bitches.
Of all the years of my mom breeding standard poodles and now I have Weims, I’ve only had to deal with one c-section. my foundation bitch had one, as there was a puppy pile up trying to all come out at once! I am so thankful that i did an x-ray, so i knew that after the 6th pup that there should be more! |Rushed to the vet at 4am and had the last 3 pups by c-section. we re-bred her and she had a great litter of 8 with no issues at all! I could never have a breed where we had to do a c-section all the time…
Sorry hadn’t checked this for a few days.
We breed border terriers. I HATE dog shows, although we have done quite well. Have bred winners of National Specialty, National Sweeps, all breed best in shows, several terrier group winners, many many champions, but honestly, I must preferred to place them in great homes where they were loved pets and not in someone breeding program.
What was interesting about the section thing is that I was dead set against sections from the beginning. We averaged between 6 to 8 puppies a litter, and our puppies were usually 2 oz bigger than most, and still no sections. I had a few puppies that were 11-13 oz (ave for most was about 6-7, ours were usually 8 or 9). The bitches whelped easily. We haven’t had any for a couple years, I had literally had a puppy in my house without a break for more than 15 years and we were getting ready to move for the first time in 22 years…but we got a puppy bitch in Dec that is a daughter of two dogs that were a son and daughter of dogs we bred so getting restarted with our blood lines.
After 6 or 8 years we started having other breeders come to us that were sick of doing c sections. I could never understand breeding a bitch repeatedly that needed c sections, and then breeding her daughter that also needed c sections, hello??? Having said that, i also think that people rush to do a section to soon. But I also realize that I am pretty experienced with whelping and raising puppies.
I had a BT bitch who did the same thing with her 2nd litter, so needed a C-section. We lost 2 of the pups “on the table” and another one she killed (accidentally I think), when she tried to pick it up to move it while she was still groggy.
If you have a breed that MUST have c-sections, like the ones mentioned, I suppose breeders don’t care they are creating such an un-natural situation.
But there are plenty of risks to c-sections to both bitch & pups…not to mention the cost!
I think any breeder that advocates this without a serious reason is irresponsible, IMHO.
Knowing when to throw in the towel and call for the c-section is such an art, too. I work small animal ER and tend to see the inexperienced breeders who waited too long, the bitch is in lousy shape and many of the puppies are dead when I removed them from the uterus. With Gale, she went into normal labor but nobody was able to move down into the canal (turns out there were 3 in a puppy pile in the body of her uterus) so about an hour into stage II labor I called a friend to do the surgery for me. And because of the reasons that lead to the C-section in what was a labor that started on time and was trying to progress, I will end up breeding her again.
