Dog chasing birds, at my wit's end UPDATE POST 27

I have a young beagle mix with herding tendencies and was thanking my lucky stars when she developed a truly reliable recall in increasingly distracting situations.

Unfortunately, with spring came an influx of birds and I’ve since learned that she is freaking OBSESSED with chasing birds. When she spots one and goes after it, it’s like the entire world ceases to exist - she can’t hear me, she can’t see obstacles in her path, she can’t tell she’s about to run into the street.

I’ve stopped letting her off leash in unenclosed areas, of course, but she recently almost got over the fence at the dog park - a feat I would have been 100% certain there was no way she could accomplish if I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes.

When she goes after them, she follows them even when they’re in the sky and she can keep up with the speed of a bird in full flight. It’s amazing and scary.

Her recall is literally 100% except for birds. I have worked on it with the most tempting treats I can find (from lamb lung to pig ears to actual hunks of meat) and she’s great until there’s a bird. She has no interest in fetching or chasing anything else so I’m having a hard time helping her burn that predatory/herding energy in other ways.

What can I do?! Surely someone with a working or hunting breed has dealt with this successfully before. It is really affecting the things we can do together.

following…

Hopefully won’t get flamed here, but proper work with an shock collar is probably your best bet. Nothing you have will top the self reward she’s getting from chasing the birds. Hopefully others more experienced can give you the how-to

[QUOTE=ElisLove;8718988]
Hopefully won’t get flamed here, but proper work with an shock collar is probably your best bet. Nothing you have will top the self reward she’s getting from chasing the birds. Hopefully others more experienced can give you the how-to[/QUOTE]

I am soooooo R+ but in this situation I’m more than willing to consider the argument for a shock collar. It is genuinely dangerous behavior and is getting worse as, to your point, it’s being reinforced each time she’s able to chase. It makes me nervous to let anyone aside from myself walk her, as she has slipped away from me at this point and I am much more vigilant than the average person - including my BF.

E training. My brother uses this successfully on his dogs that get obsessed with his chickens. Many good collars out there nowadays.

I have had good luck with the citronella training collars. Worth a try before you go to shock.

[QUOTE=french fry;8718976]
Unfortunately, with spring came an influx of birds and I’ve since learned that she is freaking OBSESSED with chasing birds. When she spots one and goes after it, it’s like the entire world ceases to exist - she can’t hear me, she can’t see obstacles in her path, she can’t tell she’s about to run into the street. [/QUOTE]

I believe you can do this with +R. Familiar with Susan Garrett? Rough Love type stuff? Leslie McDevitt? Read up on Control Unleashed and Recallers. I JUST saw a video of a working-line springer spaniel turned loose in brush, demonstrating recall and impulse control. I wish I could find it to inspire you.

You’re going to use the Premack Principle to instill the recall around the highly arousing, highly reinforcing stimulus.

I trained my young Doberman last year not to chase Chickens. We were staying a week with friends that had free range chickens. In less than three days, he knew not to chase the flapping, squawking, running teases. One year later, he still knew not to chase the chickens.

The Sportdog e-collar works very well. One has an immediate choice of tone, quick nick or hard shock with one of three buttons.

E-collar. There is a reason most hunting dogs trainers use them.

It’s really not inhumane and is very effective, at least for most dogs.

You can teach a command e.g. “come” or “no bird” and back it up with the collar - ignoring the command results in an annoying (not necessarily painful if it’s not needed) tap tap tap with the collar until they comply with the command. You set the level that provides enough annoyance to get the dog to listen - for some, it is very low. For others, it might be higher. It might be situational as well (e.g. one level in the backyard, and another level in a training bird field.)

You would have to define what “comply” means – be very clear. “Come” means they must return all the way to you and then be released. “No bird” is easier - it can simply mean “don’t chase” and can then be paired with a 2nd command like “this way” which means change direction (usually away from the bird) but does not require them to come all the way back to you.

I like to teach both, because if you train “come” you can give a really high value reward with can help reinforce the behavior. Nothing says you have to only use R+ and nothing else for any given command.

My dogs love their e-collars (with bells, so they know when I get them out) because it means FUN!

E collar.

Nothing stopping you from ALSO using +R.

So, when we are chasing? STOP YO HEINIE.
When our attention snaps back to us and we recall? Click and treat.

Btw the shock collar works just like a leg aid.
You apply a light buzz with the command and when the dog does it you stop the buzz. Dog learns that obeying the command stops the buzz.

You DO NOT give the command and then buzz if dog does not obey. Not how it works.

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;8719848]

Btw the shock collar works just like a leg aid.
You apply a light buzz with the command and when the dog does it you stop the buzz. Dog learns that obeying the command stops the buzz.

You DO NOT give the command and then buzz if dog does not obey. Not how it works.[/QUOTE]

Eh…there is wiggle room on that. I see no reason to shock a dog that IS obeying. But you do have to be prepared to shock if you don’t see (or hear, if they are wearing a bell) an immediate response to your vocalized command (or whistle).

If your setting is so low it is like a tap on the shoulder, then it will work, at least for training. But you don’t want them to ignore the vocal command and rely on the collar as the command. You cannot use a collar in any competition, so your dog cannot rely on the “tap” to be the command. In which case, you have to give them a chance to respond to the vocalized command first.

I guess if you never intend to ever test your dog in competition, you can do whatever you want. I find that I rely too much on the “beep” setting on the collar to call my dogs, and they respond very well to that. But they can’t use it in competition, so I have to stop relying on it as a communication tool.

Saw one at the dog park today for a dog that has an insanely large bubble… As in, half the park. Come in his “half” and he gums the other dog, sounds ferocious but no teeth, just a lot of slobber. He “mauled” my old dog so convincingly that my oldster submitted, something I’ve never in seven years seen…but he was uninjured, just soaked. We both apologized. Next day, dog had a collar. He beeped him a couple times, no shock, I was amazed. He said he only had to buzz him twice in several years.

I too have a chaser. Deer and birds. The deer I worry less about it, though I don’t like the thought of one NOT running from him this fall and instead going on a rampage. But he only sees the deer where I board, which is totally fenced. He sees birds in parking lots and boom, he’s off, and nothing is stopping him unless I see the bird first and tell him “no” before he gets going. Once he hits stride two, his ears are off and it’s all eyes baby. I’m considering getting one until he outgrows this or learns to listen.

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;8719848]
Btw the shock collar works just like a leg aid.
You apply a light buzz with the command and when the dog does it you stop the buzz. Dog learns that obeying the command stops the buzz.

You DO NOT give the command and then buzz if dog does not obey. Not how it works.[/QUOTE]

Just to get back to this comparison; I would liken the e-collar to a crop. You ask with your leg, you use your crop if your horse doesn’t respond to your leg. If used properly, your horse will learn to listen to your leg, but you might ride with a crop just in case.

I rarely have my younger two dogs off leash without their e-collars, but I rarely use the shock setting because they have learned to listen to my whistle/vocal command.

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;8719848]

Btw the shock collar works just like a leg aid.
You apply a light buzz with the command and when the dog does it you stop the buzz. Dog learns that obeying the command stops the buzz.

You DO NOT give the command and then buzz if dog does not obey. Not how it works.[/QUOTE]

I think meup is referencing the training theory that applies pressure until the behavior is completed, then the pressure stops. A good example could be the ear pinch. I know some bite sports people do this via the collar.

Meup, correct me if I’m wrong. Of course, it is much more complicated than this and requires an experienced trainer.

And this is the training theory that you add punishment if dog fails to perform behavior after cued. Most of us are more familiar with this use.

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;8722957]
And this is the training theory that you add punishment if dog fails to perform behavior after cued. Most of us are more familiar with this use.[/QUOTE]

Well I agree that it is negative reinforcement - you add pressure until the behavior is complied with, and you then stop pressure, just like a leg aid, and not like “punishment”. But the tricky part is that unlike a horse, you are not using the collar as the aid (the signal) - you are using your voice. And then applying pressure if the dog doesn’t comply immediately.

You could use the collar to train the behavior or to always signal the behavior, if you want, I suppose. Most people that I know use positive reinforcement to teach many behaviors (recall, for example). And then use negative reinforcement to get compliance to the known command, not to signal it. And always use a vocal command to cue the behavior, using the collar only if the vocal command is not complied with.

So…not sure that it’s either negative reinforcement or punishment, or a little bit of both? You hope to decrease the “ignore” behavior, and increase the “comply” behavior. I suppose there is no reason it can’t be both?

The ear pinch is a good example of a more straightforward negative reinforcement though. Definitely not punishment.

[QUOTE=french fry;8718990]
I am soooooo R+ but in this situation I’m more than willing to consider the argument for a shock collar. It is genuinely dangerous behavior and is getting worse as, to your point, it’s being reinforced each time she’s able to chase. It makes me nervous to let anyone aside from myself walk her, as she has slipped away from me at this point and I am much more vigilant than the average person - including my BF.[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t going to post, but I will admit that I had to use a shock collar on my dog who did the exact same thing. I bought the collars that beep, vibrate, or shock and you can control the intensity from 1-100. I have never had to actually shock my dog. The beep worked most of the time. If it was noisy out, I would use the vibrate and that always worked.

We have had to re-school every once in a while, but usually just having the collar on is enough to make her mind her manners and I don’t have to actually do anything with the remote most times. I tend to forget to put the shock collar on now and after a while, she will try to revert, so I just put the collar back on for a day or 2 and that settles her back down.

Someone enlighten me please…what is e+?

[QUOTE=Romany;8723456]
Someone enlighten me please…what is e+?[/QUOTE]

e-collar is an electronic collar (some people call it a shock collar)

R+ is short for positive reinforcement
R- would be negative reinforcement
P+ would be positive punishment
P- would be negative punishment

Thanks, S1969!

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;8722957]
I think meup is referencing the training theory that applies pressure until the behavior is completed, then the pressure stops. A good example could be the ear pinch. I know some bite sports people do this via the collar.

Meup, correct me if I’m wrong. Of course, it is much more complicated than this and requires an experienced trainer.

And this is the training theory that you add punishment if dog fails to perform behavior after cued. Most of us are more familiar with this use.[/QUOTE]

I am referencing the DVD that came with my ecollar. In the DVD, they apply the lowest buzz WHILE ISSUING whatever command. The command and the buzz happen at the same time. The point is not to teach the dog the command, but to teach him that he can turn off the collar by obeying.

When training my dogs to the collar, which is a specific training event, (you don’t just put it on and say “Now I have back up!”), I put them on a long leash and waited for them to walk away from me. When they were a distance away, I SIMULTANEOUSLY:

  1. Called their names to ask for a recall
  2. Started the buzz
  3. Tugged on the leash to cause the correct behavior

The second they turned toward me I stopped the buzz.

After a few times ensuring the correct response with the leash, I simultaneously buzzed and called, but did not help with the leash. If they didn’t listen I tugged the leash so they would turn toward me and then I could turn off the buzz.

It took fewer than ten total repetitions for them to understand that turning toward me turned off the buzz. Now they understood that the buzz is the reinforcer for the command. (Think about it: if you do not teach the dog this they might think, oh she called my name, whatever. oh when I walk past this bush I get zapped. I don’t like that bush so much anymore. A dog who has not been introduced to the concept is not going to necessarily say, oh, she called me and I ignored her, this buzz when she is no longer calling me is now retribution from God for not listening, I will always listen when she calls now.)

Once the dogs understood that the buzz is related to listening to the command, they pretty much immedistely had a 95% recall without it, and if they don’t listen they promptly get the buzz + command combo, and the buzz stays on until they turn their heinie around.

So that is my explantation. I am an expert only ina s much as I followed the DVD instructions to the letter. It worked for me and my dogs, but to be fair I was ONLY interested in off leash recall reinforcement. That said imo a recall is the most important training tool. If your dog is recalling to you it cannot also be barking at people, jumping on people, chasing things, fighting with things, eating things it shouldn’t, running the fence at the neighbor’s dogs, etc etc and so forth. I want divine back up when I issue a recall so that NOTHING is more important than that command!

I don’t use the collar as punishment for barking at the squirrel in the tree, I use it to back up “Come here instead.” I don’t use it as a correction for taking off after the cat, I use it to back up, “TURN YOUR HEINIE AROUND and come here instead.” If the dog is ignoring my recall because it is more interested in something else, I recall again with the buzz and leave the buzz on until the dog is more interested in turning that off than anything else it is doing. My collar has an escalting function so they get motivated to turn it off fairly quickly.

I also should have been more clear in my post that when TEACHING the collar, everything, command +buss, is simultaneously applied until the dog complies.

Once the dog already understands both the command and the collar (two separate things), the command happens once with no buzz, and THEN if there is no reaction the command is given again simultaneously with a reinforcement buzz that does not goal away until you have compliance.

So, in teaching I used the first theory.
Once the dogs understood I used the crop version.
ymmv