Dog training question: finishing a recall

[yellowbritches]

So, my little long dog Rita did a basic obedience class and was a little smarty pants/teacher’s pet. It was all pretty basic stuff, and we only touched on sitting in front of me when she comes. So, now we’re working on everything she learned, and it’s all good, for the most part, and her recall is either amazingly enthusiastic or “I’m sorry…did you say something?” BUT, she wants to sit when she comes, but she whips around and sits facing away from me…I suspect to keep an eye on the things she missing by me calling her back. I will sometimes grab her and sit her facing me, but she HATES being man handled (left over from her former family), and acts like she’s done something horribly wrong…the exact opposite feeling I want her to have when she comes!

Any suggestions on getting her to face me when she gets to me?

[Renn_aissance]

Put a treat in your hand. Come. Show treat. Sit. Hold the sit and hold the eye contact in the sit for a couple seconds. Give treat. Lather, rinse, repeat for awhile and then start phasing out the treat.

I’m not as interesting to my dog as a goose across the field. My value increases exponentially with a piece of chicken in my hand.

[yellowbritches]

Meh…she’s weird about treats. Sometimes she’ll do ANYTHING for one. Sometimes she refuses them. Usually when life is very interesting. We’ve played with different treats and, short of hot dogs (Which are a PITA to deal with for me) that’s how it is with everything.

[S1969]

I would teach her a finish. Recall only means come back to me - somewhere in the vicinity of me. But you can have them recall to a “front” - sitting in front of you; or have them go around you and sit at your left side facing away from you…or any other option. Teach that as a separate command, and then your recall is two part – “COME” and then “FRONT” (or "FINISH/HEEL or any other word you want to give to it.)

If you ask for a “recall” and “finish”, do not reward her for just coming back to you. But you can have a “recall” command that does not require coming all the way back to you. I have several different commands - one is “THIS WAY” (which means come in my direction but you don’t have to come to me); one is “COME” - which means come all the way back to me for a reward or release, and I also have a “FRONT” which means sit right in front of me. I often say “COME” and then “FRONT” when the dog gets within 10 feet of me.

You have to teach them separately and practice them separately and in combination, but it might help.

[Bluey]

Teach the “look at me” first, from any place, anywhere, reinforcing with a clicker if you do clicker or a treat alone if not.

Then use that to proof your recall by taking a few steps back and to the side and the other side while asking her to look at you.

You will add the finish later, after a proper front, either around you or jumping and switching ends and sitting at heel, that she is almost offering now.

You should have a teacher helping you thru all of this, as it builds on each other to get to the end result.

[Houndhill]

It depends upon your goal, how you handle this.

If you are wanting to do AKC Obedience competition, you must have a good “front” recall- absolutely centered and close.

So you must decide what your criterion is.

But, I would never “manhandle” if the dog went to the finish position - always praise for effort, and make coming a wonderful thing for the dog, always rewarded, the faster the better the reward.

You should try to make the dog right coming in- some people use chutes, wooden or something that will guide the dog in, so you can reward.

Back up if they try to go to heel position.

Pool noodles, PVC, whatever- just do not nor correct when the dog comes to you, just try to help dog understand what position is most rewarded.

I taught my IW a “chin rest” so she would have a target on recall- we may have
lost a point because she touched me, but it was so appealing I didn’t mind- she would come in and then rest her chin on my chest just below my chin.

[yellowbritches]

[QUOTE=S1969;8753268]
I would teach her a finish. Recall only means come back to me - somewhere in the vicinity of me. But you can have them recall to a “front” - sitting in front of you; or have them go around you and sit at your left side facing away from you…or any other option. Teach that as a separate command, and then your recall is two part – “COME” and then “FRONT” (or "FINISH/HEEL or any other word you want to give to it.)

If you ask for a “recall” and “finish”, do not reward her for just coming back to you. But you can have a “recall” command that does not require coming all the way back to you. I have several different commands - one is “THIS WAY” (which means come in my direction but you don’t have to come to me); one is “COME” - which means come all the way back to me for a reward or release, and I also have a “FRONT” which means sit right in front of me. I often say “COME” and then “FRONT” when the dog gets within 10 feet of me.

You have to teach them separately and practice them separately and in combination, but it might help.[/QUOTE]
She has picked up on big dog’s more conversational commands, including “this way” and “out of the road!” She’s smart and she WANTS to please…but OMG the world is so interesting. We touched on finishes in the class (I can lure her into a couple of different ones). I don’t CARE if she sits when she comes…I really just care that she comes, but I want to know I’ve got her attention.

Bluey, you’re probably right, then. I need to get her “look” better. She does it well in the confines of home or in class, but, again, that whole world thing. We’ll play with that.

I don’t need her to be obedience trial broke. I would like her to graduate from her leash to off leash walking like the big dog (we walk on private property). And, we’ve been through the basic obedience class, so I’ll either have to sign up for more classes (very difficult with my schedule. Getting her through six weeks of this class was hell at work!). Just curious to see if there were any tips.

[yellowbritches]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8753331]
It depends upon your goal, how you handle this.

If you are wanting to do AKC Obedience competition, you must have a good “front” recall- absolutely centered and close.

So you must decide what your criterion is.

But, I would never “manhandle” if the dog went to the finish position - always praise for effort, and make coming a wonderful thing for the dog, always rewarded, the faster the better the reward.

You should try to make the dog right coming in- some people use chutes, wooden or something that will guide the dog in, so you can reward.

Back up if they try to go to heel position.

Pool noodles, PVC, whatever- just do not nor correct when the dog comes to you, just try to help dog understand what position is most rewarded.

I taught my IW a “chin rest” so she would have a target on recall- we may have
lost a point because she touched me, but it was so appealing I didn’t mind- she would come in and then rest her chin on my chest just below my chin.[/QUOTE]
She sits in front of me, facing away. She doesn’t go to a finish/heel position. She knows I like her to sit…but she sits in the wrong direction!

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=yellowbritches;8753371]
She sits in front of me, facing away. She doesn’t go to a finish/heel position. She knows I like her to sit…but she sits in the wrong direction![/QUOTE]

Oh, then it sounds like you need to be more interesting!

Have a treat,na ball, a toy, praise, engagement, whatever, do not allow the sit faced away, by moving back, interrupting her sit, rewarding focus on you.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=yellowbritches;8753371]
She sits in front of me, facing away. She doesn’t go to a finish/heel position. She knows I like her to sit…but she sits in the wrong direction![/QUOTE]

I would say she’s giving you the middle paw. “I’ll do what you ask, but only because you’re forcing me.” My dog will do this in the field. He will recall, but not because he wants to. Which, in many circumstances, is sufficient and I will not insist on a different response. However, when I ask him for a “front” - he knows what it means. And, in general, he willingly offers it if I ask, because he will usually get a good reward for it.

I agree that attention games - “look at me” - are good ones to play. Obviously it helps when a dog is food motivated, but toys can work for that type of exercise as well. If your dog is not incredibly food motivated, I would start trying different options for more value. Liver, lamb meatballs, cheese doodles…whatever they like best. When I’m teaching something new, or something hard, I usually have two pockets of treats. The “regular” ones for easy commands, and the “super awesome” ones for new/difficult things.

[yellowbritches]

[QUOTE=S1969;8753400]
I would say she’s giving you the middle paw. “I’ll do what you ask, but only because you’re forcing me.” My dog will do this in the field. He will recall, but not because he wants to. Which, in many circumstances, is sufficient and I will not insist on a different response. However, when I ask him for a “front” - he knows what it means. And, in general, he willingly offers it if I ask, because he will usually get a good reward for it.

I agree that attention games - “look at me” - are good ones to play. Obviously it helps when a dog is food motivated, but toys can work for that type of exercise as well. If your dog is not incredibly food motivated, I would start trying different options for more value. Liver, lamb meatballs, cheese doodles…whatever they like best. When I’m teaching something new, or something hard, I usually have two pockets of treats. The “regular” ones for easy commands, and the “super awesome” ones for new/difficult things.[/QUOTE]
Great suggestions! I wish something easier was as high value as the damn hot dogs. i can keep liver bits with leashes and grab and go as needed…they also don’t get really funky and greasy on an hour long walk like the hot dogs do! Any suggestions for REALLY tasty/smelly treats that are also easy to deal with ? Hot dogs also queasy…so gross.

And, yeah, she’s probably definitely giving me the middle paw. My big dog is a great role model for her EXCEPT she is the QUEEN of that. “I’ll give you MY version of what you just asked.” Thankfully, Rita is not as fiercely independent and cares a bit more about pleasing me than Stella does!

[Hannahsmom]

The “look at me” game as Bluey said. Figure out was is a reinforcing reward for her. I’d be asking for eye contact and rewarding that. It could preface a frisbee toss or a ball throw or tug or just a verbal release. I wouldn’t worry about a recall position, I’d be working on getting her to want to make eye contact with you because you are the ‘best thing ever!!’ Eye contact for dinner, eye contact for walks, etc. it’s a focus thing as someone said, when you recall her she knows where you are, she’s checking to see if there is something more fun! Unless she’s fearful and she us scanning for bogeymen.

[yellowbritches]

Unless she’s fearful and she us scanning for bogeymen.

HA! Nope. She’s got things to hunt. And probably afraid she’s missing something since her big “sister” walks off leash and pretty much has free range, as long as we go in the same general direction (she mostly walks with me, but will go off in the brush for groundhogs…little one walks on a 15ft field lead so she can join in to an extent). She’s a dachshund cross, so not much scares her…and now that she’s been with me for almost three months, she’s a bit big for her britches!

[Hannahsmom]

High value non-smelly treats? Lamb lung, turkey heart, dehydrated liver wurst or other meats (super stinky in the dehydrater but fine once dry), Happy Howies meat rolls (avail thru Clean Run).

[Bluey]

A treat bag is best a whole mix of things, so it is always interesting what will come out of it.

Experiment with little pieces of all and any you can think, better than just hot dog pieces and generally some of it takes the grease out of other.
After you find what she prefers, you can leave the really greasy stuff out of it for other than when you put treats on a counter, work and then use them off that and doesn’t matter if they are a little greasier than normal.
For those you carry with you, you don’t have to use the more messy stuff.

Oh and we call it “watch me”, it is easy to say, long enough to let the dog think and short enough that it demands attention and immediate reaction.
I don’t know where I got the “look at me” from.

[Bicoastal]

She’s a critter-er, right? Have you tried fur tugs?

I echo HoundHill: NEVER fuss at her when she comes to you, even if you don’t like how she gets to you or how long she stays. If you want her “finish” position to be facing you, teach her to target her paws to your feet/shoes or nose to your knees. Give her something specific to do when she reaches you. Practice duration of that behavior separately from the come part.

If you want to hold her attention longer when she comes in, have a HUGE party when she comes. Like a good 20 second play/love/food/tricks fest. Then send her away while you’re still partying. If she bounces back to you, HUGE party and send her away. Same principle as “go sniff” release. Very quickly the pup realizes it’s much more furn to hang with the human.

With the hot dogs, I chop and microwave them to dry them out so there is less slime on my fingers. Are you using them straight out of the bag? That would be a mess!

Easy to carry, high value food suggestions:

• cheese sticks (too tame?)
• precooked chicken strips
• precooked meatballs
• microwaved hot dogs
• microwaved liverwurst
• mini marshmellows
• squeeze tubes
• can of baby food (easier to fit in winter coat pockets than carry around in summer)
• liver bait sold in a tub at pet stores

I’d strongly recommend experimenting with tug/furry toys for your girly.

[Renn_aissance]

[QUOTE=yellowbritches;8753411]
Great suggestions! I wish something easier was as high value as the damn hot dogs. i can keep liver bits with leashes and grab and go as needed…they also don’t get really funky and greasy on an hour long walk like the hot dogs do! Any suggestions for REALLY tasty/smelly treats that are also easy to deal with ? [/QUOTE]

For my dog, who is not super food motivated, Pupperoni is about equal value to hot dogs and cheese, and doesn’t get gross on a walk. I also like that it can be broken into small bites. Your mileage may vary. We use the “nothing in life is free” approach with our very independent thinker and a tug toy is also pretty interesting.

[bdj]

[QUOTE=yellowbritches;8753411]
Any suggestions for REALLY tasty/smelly treats that are also easy to deal with ?[/QUOTE]

Lakse Kronch: https://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1061&ParentCat=286
Super stinky, somewhat greasy, but the dogs LOVE them, and you don’t have to keep them refrigerated.
My crew are also currently very happy with Merrick Backcountry Chicken Sausage treats: http://www.merrickpetcare.com/dogs/products/recipe?title=Merrick_Soft_and_Chewy_Treats-_Backcountry_Wild_Prairie_Real_Chicken_Sausage_Cuts_Dog_Treats&id=276 They have enough smell to be enticing, they’re soft enough to tear into smaller pieces, they’re not really greasy at all, but not dry/hard and (once again) don’t require refrigeration.

[Bluey]

If you microwave hot dogs, be aware that the house will stink to high heaven.

Best to put the microwave outside or in a garage with the door open to do that.

Once cooled, the dried out pieces don’t smell hardly at all.

[Calamber]

Does she alert to squeaky toys? If so, have one hidden in your hand (small dog squeak toy or take squeaker out of any toy) or pocket and as she is coming in squeak and sit. A little extra squeak won’t hurt as she sits and looks at you. Otherwise, I would try the shoot, even an xpen in a v fold might do it.