Doing business with JILL BURNELL? BEWARE.

[eagle74]

It’s amazing that I posted actual pictures of the facility and I’m accused of either being Jill or being paid by Jill! Sorry to disappoint but far from the truth!

“That being said, I now know a total of 4 people affected by Jill Burnell and Gray Fox Farm. Ironically, all of them have never come forward, never voiced their complaints and likely never will”

How conveinient is that? 4 whole people? C’mon Daventry, all you bashers are doing is trying to de-value GFF horses with your claims. Think of the people who have purchased horses and haven’t complained at all.

[Kmsuds]

[QUOTE=wanderlust;6508374]
But that is exactly what you are doing, trying to defend that woman.

So my question for you, kmsuds, is this: does your good experience negate all the bad experiences others have had with her? I mean, there are pages and pages here, in addition to court judgements, people posting on her facebook looking for money, etc.

Could you recommend others do business with her knowing this? That some people have good experiences, but many others take it up the *ss from her?

I mean, it isn’t like these other people are making shit up just to be mean to someone. She screwed them, end of story. That is a fact.[/QUOTE]

Wanderlust my experience is MY experience, as stated, not negating ANYONE’s own issue. I am simply putting forth fact that has been skewed by some. It is not excusing anything, but I hope you realize how people making stuff up makes the truth seem awfully blurry.

[tradewind]

Hoarding is a mental illness, it does not however excuse the abuse of the elderly or animals. This is a person who obviously needs serious help. She also seriously needs not to have anything in her care, control, or custody that relies on her for food, medication, shelpter etc. This is just a very very terrible situation for all involved.

[Kmsuds]

[QUOTE=dianehalpin;6508386]
Kmsuds, try looking on the USEF Leading HUNTER Sires List. The Hunter Breeding Lists show that some of us occasionally do to get youngers out and about and seen - to help market them. It’s the HUNTER Sires list that tells the talent tale.

Considering that a good percentage of the Gray Fox get who are out showing in HB were taken for payment of debt in lieu of cash, the numbers of them showing tell a story of more than conformational integrity. I have it on good authority that the money owed by Gray Fox Farm to Peter Pletcher was finally paid in the form of a horse or two.

I breed hunters and jumpers. They actually have to be able to jump with scope and technique, and hopefully are bred to want to jump, great conformation being a part of that and something a breeder hopes to get from at least some of the offspring. I’m not surprised that a puppy mill churning out a lot of baby horses has enough youngsters left from any irregularities in the yearly crop to absolutely fill as many hunter breeding classes as they care to enter. The best Gray Fox youngsters that I’ve seen have resulted from more thoughtful crosses and can compete in-hand with the top tier of pretty and correct hunter “prospects”.[/QUOTE]

Diane, I have looked at USEF. My point was this. Jill does not drag her youngsters out by the handful to gather points. She has shown them very little. I was simply trying to correct another incorrect fact. If you check the show lists you will see what I am saying is true. The comment about what they will grow up to be goes for every breeder not just GFF. Yes we all have to see what ours will grow up to be and hope they turn out well. Most of us pick our combinations out of thought. It just seems that yet again the thread goes away from truth and goes into conspiracy theory.

[Kmsuds]

sorry just noticed Laurie P resolved the point issue quite well.

[equinedriver]

[QUOTE=eagle74;6508680]

How conveinient is that? 4 whole people? C’mon Daventry, all you bashers are doing is trying to de-value GFF horses with your claims. Think of the people who have purchased horses and haven’t complained at all.[/QUOTE]

OBVIOUSLY there are WAY MORE than 4 people that have been ripped off by this woman. We have heard from either 1 or 2 that are defending her, that have not disclosed who they are, as opposed to the “accusers” who have come out publicly… so if you have so many happy customers, why don’t you name them or have them post here to share their stories of nothing but professional, positive business dealings?

BTW, did the woman on the other thread ever get her mare that was paid for?

[ldaziens]

[QUOTE=Vermilion;6508578]
I agree with you. However…this whole topic hits a nerve.

Psychiatric problems don’t exist in America. Or that’s what a vast number of Americans would have people believe…until someone goes on a shooting spree or lives with 50 cats and piles of sh!t…but then we blame gun control or animal control for not doing their part.

ETA: There’s also the stigma attached to asking for help that inhibits a lot of people as well. Asking for help is not a weakness or some kind of defect.

I think it’s funny we as a society can accept animals as mentally “damaged goods,” but we can’t even come close to accepting that some people need help. It’s heartbreaking…

You would know that their reality isn’t even close to the real version of events because it isn’t the way their brain is wired. They. Need. Help. It isn’t a joke. Oh, and they can function quite well out in society. They can be very charming (and manipulative) when they need it. [/QUOTE]

You have a lot of valid points about the lack of both availability and affordability of mental health care. I know that prior to the return of 2nd Gulf War & Afghanistan, I saw a statistic on the odds of an individual developing a mental illness (based on DSM-IV) over the course of one’s lifetime, and they are HIGH; but I can’t put my fingers on that figure. And, traumatic brain injury - including relatively “minor” closed skull injuries / concussions are a big deal - both with returning veterans and with all of those kiddos who are butting those soccer balls with their heads; and, of course, we know horseback riding is not a risk free sport.
Here are some mental health stats -
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml

I think it is hugely important to emphasize that the overwhelming majority of mentally ill people are NOT mass murderers. However, proper early diagnosis and effective treatment could surely lower the suicide rate, and decrease the pain of the mentally ill and their families.

Also, there are conditions that, at this point, do NOT have very effective treatments.

Psychopaths can function quite well in society - uh, I would say can be quite successful; and somebody wrote a book on that subject -
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2011/06/14/why-some-psychopaths-make-great-ceos/
Anyone on Twitter should check out @GSElevator for conversations overheard on the elevator at Goldmann Sachs.

Anyway, regardless of the inadaqucies of our mental health care, I support the basic legal idea that if an individual understands right from wrong; then s/he is legally responsible for his/her actions and the consequences of those actions – no matter how many DSM-IV criteria that individual meets.

Lastly, I’ll share this bit of depressing but very relevant research - http://uweekly.com/article/college-students-cheat-1318/
A study administered by Duke University said 70 percent of college students admitted to some form of serious cheating, and 40 percent reported to have stolen work from the Internet.

As a teacher, I found that stunningly depressing. But, my grandmother always told me - “I don’t care WHAT everybody else is doing!” and “Integrity is what you do when nobody is looking” - which reminds me of that poor Devon Pony.

[Appsolute]

[QUOTE=Mara;6508600]
What about the parents’ mental state?

This is pure speculation based on the circumstances as told and photographed by the OP (so it might be deleted by mods), but are the parents competent to decide all by themselves if they want to help finance their daughter’s new 30 acre property? The same daughter who just had one property foreclosed upon and sold on the courthouse steps?

(I know my parents would probably laugh in my face if I went and told them my 1500 sf house had just been repo’d. . .and oh, by the way, would they be willing to help me buy a new 5500 sf house on acreage. They wouldn’t let me be homeless (probably), but neither would they enable irresponsible behavior).[/QUOTE]

Accourding to the public records, Jill’s parents sold this farm to her back in 2004… she immediately took a loan out, and got an official notice of default some 7 months later. It has been in default on and off ever since (until the bank took the property this year).

All of the deeds to Jill are from her parents (this one and a different property).

They have a long list of defaults and notices of foreclosures against them as well. Not sure what is going on, but lets just say it doesn’t look like their finances have been in order since 2000.

[Fancy_That]

As a SF Bay Area person who has had horses here for 35 years, all over the Bay Area, I will chime in to say that WE DO HAVE PASTURES AND LAND

Does it look like Middleburg, VA? No - we don’t naturally have the green grass year round, but we certainly DO have enough room that breeders CAN have mares and foals out on LARGE PASTURES.

Are there dry lots and stalls and pipe pens? Yes, absolutely. But is that a way to have broodies and babies and have foals grow up big and strong and develop their muscles, bones, hooves, ligaments, etc? NOPE.

Anyways - I’ve kept horses all over the Bay Area… ALL of which - I’ve had pasture.

These areas are about 1.5 hours south of Petaluma. Not THAT different. It does get hot, it does get muddy. If you don’t have a ton of space/pasture - you better darn well have mud control Is it nicer weather than alot of the country? YEP! We pay for our weather here…hehehehee

See? This is typical around here. Yes - typical. The “pasture” is only green during our very very short winter/spring. Then it’s golden. But it is still lovely to have room to roam for mares and foals.

A Los Altos Hills pasture

Another nice pasture I boarded in, in Aptos

Last pasture where I boarded in Almaden Valley

My current pasture (at home in South County)

Neighbors’ pasture in South County

[Appsolute]

[QUOTE=eagle74;6508680]
How conveinient is that? 4 whole people? C’mon Daventry, all you bashers are doing is trying to de-value GFF horses with your claims.[/QUOTE]

I am not a breeder, I am a buyer. I don’t want to devalue well bred horses.

I DO have issue with someone who has stiffed many people in the horse business. It is up to US, the horse community to out people that scam artist.

The courts, despite their judgments, warrants, and foreclosure have not been able to stop her from scamming.

The word needs to get out to all that may end up doing business with her. I certainly would not want a mare of mine to end up there!

And it is NOT just 4 people. Many people here on COTH, people on other boards have come forward, the FB group for people that had been scammed by Jill had 60+ members. Not to mention every time I check her FB page there is someone pleading to get in contact with Jill because they are owned a horse, seamen or money! Jill is pretty good at deleting those… she tries hard to cover her tracks.

[kdow]

[QUOTE=ldaziens;6508740]

But regardless of the inadaqucies of our mental health care, I support the basic legal idea that if an individual understands right from wrong; then s/he is legally responsible for their actions and the consequences of those actions – no matter how many DSM-IV criteria that individual meets.[/QUOTE]

Oh, yes. Having a mental health problem is not an automatic ‘get out of jail free’ card, as it were. I’m quite happy with the fact that the actual ‘insanity’ plea does not actually mean that anyone with any mental health issue can go ‘I’m not well!’ and that’s that - there are specific criteria that need to be met for it to be a valid defense, as I understand it. (I think the criteria vary by state - not an expert.)

And even so - if you do get out of jail time on an insanity plea, you shouldn’t be tossed out on the street, you should be put in a place where you can get proper care, because that’s a major problem to have. So it’s not like you get out of punishment, it’s more that the legal system recognizes that the traditional prison/penal system isn’t going to be useful because you need actual medical care.

Which is really where the mental illness issue comes into play in situations like this, where I don’t think the insanity plea would even apply - the question is not ‘is there a problem’ because obviously there is, but rather ‘what is the most effective intervention?’ and mental health issues can easily influence what will work and what won’t in terms of actually penalizing the guilty party appropriately, protecting animals, etc.

I’m certainly not going to say ‘oh, well, she’s a hoarder, she has mental health issues, she doesn’t know any better’ about keeping dependents or animals in horrible conditions - it doesn’t actually matter what the reason is, dependents and animals shouldn’t be kept in horrible conditions. Where the mental health aspect comes into it is more how you respond. If she doesn’t ‘see’ an issue then chances are she’s never really going to understand the problem, so you potentially can’t rely on her to self-police. So possibly animal control or a social worker needs to check in occasionally, that sort of thing.

[runwayz]

I dont think anyone is devaluing any GFF babies, they are lovely. Just buy them from someone else. The issue is supporting Jill and her farm. Obviously the money she makes from all the people that purchase breedings or babies is not going to the proper places. So to stop that, stop dealing with her and buy from a reputible breeder who has a few youngsters from whatever stallion of hers you like. As soon as the money stops coming in, then the business will stop. I think the really sad part is she is allowed to step away from this mess she made and go start up a new one. Very sad that anyone will back her on this adventure.

[Appsolute]

@Fancy That;6508757

As a SF Bay Area person who has had horses here for 35 years, all over the Bay Area, I will chime in to say that WE DO HAVE PASTURES AND LAND

Here Here Fancy That!

Here is the pasture where I raised my young horse

Not the best grass… but sure beats a dirt pen like JB has those mares on

This is how youngsters should be kept

Barn #2 - more big green pastures - in the bay area!

[yeskatboxxx]

My intent was to warn people about the person they are doing business with now or in the future. Not to embarrass her parents for being swindled by their own daughter.

[Noms]

[QUOTE=yeskatboxxx;6508804]
My intent was to warn people about the person they are doing business with now or in the future. Not to embarrass her parents for being swindled by their own daughter.[/QUOTE]

You and your husband should take some sort of action to prevent her from stealing all of your in-laws money.

[Appsolute]

[QUOTE=yeskatboxxx;6508804]
My intent was to warn people about the person they are doing business with now or in the future. Not to embarrass her parents for being swindled by their own daughter.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, (because that looks to be the case) I will take down what I have posted (per the official records which are online for all to see).

Really wish that her parents would stop enabling this appalling behavior.

[yeskatboxxx]

This is the parcel number and aerial view of the property. Just a giant pasture, so there is no actual address yet.

http://www.apal.co/RV/3956/1831

[Fancy_That]

Appsolutely!!! hehehehe (sorry couldn’t resist)

And since you are from Pescadero, here is my mare - frolicking in a HUGE pasture there - great for raising babies and having broodies on

[QUOTE=Appsolute;6508788]
Here Here Fancy That!

Here is the pasture where I raised my young horse

Not the best grass… but sure beats a dirt pen like JB has those mares on

This is how youngsters should be kept

Barn #2 - more big green pastures - in the bay area![/QUOTE]

[Appsolute]

[QUOTE=yeskatboxxx;6508817]
This is the parcel number and aerial view of the property. Just a giant pasture, so there is no actual address yet.

http://www.apal.co/RV/3956/1831[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I wondered what bank would EVER loan to Jill to allow her to buy property in this day and age. Looks like the sellers did a buyer carry back mortgage. Boy are they going to be in for a ride.

[Noodles]

Oh my, do I feel like an idiot!!! I’ve been drooling over Redwine for awhile. GFF website seems professional and has lovely offspring for sale-- I never have imagined it was a farce.

Their babies are costly…so how the heck can she owe so many people and lose her home???

I’m just sick about this…albeit feeling saved at the same time from doing business with GFF.

very sad,

noodles