Doing business with JILL BURNELL? BEWARE.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=equitruth;6788599]
Didn’t she try and say RS was not hers? Then she said she sold him. Leave it to JB to continue to try and sell breedings to an animal that she said was not hers in the first place. [/QUOTE]

My parents sold several colts/stallions over the course of many years. Often times they retained several breedings a year to the stallions, which they had the option to sell to others, if they chose not to use them in any given year.

I’m not commenting on who or who does not own RS, but it would not be uncommon for a previous owner to retain some breeding rights to the sold horse as part of the sale contract.

[Equilibrium]

Wait, I thought per vet report some horses weren’t handled much if at all, but yet they’re fine for farrier? Vet report said feet needed done and some needed shoes? And yet in roughly 6-7 weeks this happens? Um, nope, I don’t think so. My now 3 yo gets a rub of a rasp at most 3 times a year. I can hear the gasp, and the OMG. Seriously, she is seen monthly but she needs anything done. Very tough hard feet that she grows and wears appropriately. Actually this one will compete bare. Oh yeah, I’m one of those. So believe me for those feet to be in such a state, it’s been much longer if at all with some of them. But I’d actually like to see pics of the feet to see what is really going on besides poor quality. Lots of people here get young horses done rarely in winter. Reason being they come in to an area of hard standing to eat. This is trims as well as stimulating growth. I have ponies for a guy that come in at 3 never having their feet done. They live out year round and have hard standing/concrete standing areas. Most have never seen a BS and yet they have strong feet, they aren’t cracking, and just minor rubs of a rasp see them right. He also has stock out of TB mares too. Mineral licks and free choice haylage in winter. I have a TB mare I used to blame her thin soled pancake feet on genetics. When I took the shoes off because wedges were her only option, changes were immediate. She gets ridden on the roads for stimulation and wear. Previously in shoes since she was 2. She still has her shape of foot but is now concave with a hard sole. Most of it is diet. The rest she takes care of in the conditions I give her. And slowly with my farrier, not trimmer, we’ve been able to pull back her toe so she can use the back of her foot more effectively. Like an odd rasp here and there.

Sorry to ramble but its all a big part of the overall picture. Diet, conditions kept, and obviously feet in need of some serious care beyond a chop it off into a pretty shape.

As always I’m just hoping for the best possible outcome for these horses. I think about them often in the course of my day.

Terri

[saje]

.

[EquusMagnificus]

[QUOTE=ise@ssl;6787383]
After reading Dr. Ellis’s submission - I’m even more frustrated. She accepted the fact that JB claimed to give vaccinations - but never asked for any paperwork on that. With respect to JB’s worming program. We would NEVER worm a foal every month. It’s toxic for them AND can create resistence to wormers. We only worm 2x a year with Strongid and ivermectin. We do fecals if we have any concerns.
Regarding the comment on the hay. We currently have 20 horses/foals on our farm and a pick up truck of bales of hay wouldn’t even last a week. And our horses are out in grass pastures at least 7 hours a day in the winter. And they all come into stalls and have grain. The Vet writes that broodmares were getting 4 flakes - how the hell are they supposed to exist on that? This Vet must be a complete bone head. I just hope Marin County moves on all the other violations on the property and MHS moves to take all the horses as soon as possible.
I cringe to think of the last property she was at and how many pathogens are on that land after seeing the photos that started this thread.[/QUOTE]

Just want to comment on this:

The vet is reporting on what she was told and what she could see that day. Period.

The fact-checking is NOT her job; that’s the MHS’ lawyer’s job.

And let’s not forget that she is evaluating the horses on the premise of a need to seize. We all know that they need to be in pretty dire straits to be seized; which a BCS of 3 is not going to be sufficient for a seizure, especially with an owner saying she’s doing “all that needs to be done”.

Focus on the bad guy.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Joanne;6788890]

Years ago, I boarded at a very knowedgeable horsewoman’s barn. She was telling me that on occasion she would rescue a really thin horse and she always would turn it out with a sheet on so as not to be reported to the humane society.[/QUOTE]

^^^^ very common … so is the practice of keeping thinner horses (due to whatever reason) turned out where folks from the road can’t see them.

[Jeito]

[QUOTE=EquusMagnificus;6789666]
Just want to comment on this:

The vet is reporting on what she was told and what she could see that day. Period.[/QUOTE]

That’s not 100% true. The report is a mixture of observation (e.g., “I observed water troughs in each paddock,” “I did not observe hay storage,” “I observed three completed structures”); reporting of what she was told (e.g., “Mrs. Burnell stated that she vaccinates every horse,” “Mrs. Burnell stated her feeding program as follows”); professional opinion (“BCS = 3,” “In my opinion, Pumpkin is neither in distress. . .”); and completed unsupported conclusions about what level of care she believes JB is capable and willing to provide (e.g., “I believe if the Burnells are given a reasonable amount of time to make suggested changes, they will do so”). It’s that last one that seems a bit odd and unprofessional.

[FalseImpression]

After checking with my BO that she had the facility and agreed, a boarder bought a horse at the local meat auction. He was a rack of bones. The BO made sure she always had a letter from the boarder (who also put up an explanation with pictures of her previous rescue in the tack room) and a note from the vet to show any authority who would stop to ask questions. It was obvious that horse was being cared for but better be prepared!

[Leg-Up]

Auction Updates

Auction Items Closing This Evening, Sat Jan 19 2013:
[SUP](Note that auction closes at time indicated or approximately 5 minutes after last bid)
[/SUP]
21:10:00 EST 1 Formal white (solid white or printed/textured) Stock Tie
21:25:00 EST 1 breeding to the Thoroughbred stallion, Artrageous
21:40:00 EST 1 breeding to the German Riding Pony stallion, Stibby Me aka Sweet Rock Solid
21:55:00 EST Weekend Auditing Pass with Box Lunches to Jane Savoie Clinic at GoodNess Ridge Farm
22:10:00 EST 1 Photography session for 6 hour period With Angela Pritchard

Items We Have Added Today
3 doses of frozen semen from Oldenburg stallion, Bravo
1 Professional Print by Dee Seiden - Arabian
1 Professional Print by Dee Seiden - Thoroughbred

Tally to Date/Time of Posting

[table=“width: 70%, class: grid, align: center”]
[tr]
[td]Date[/td]
[td]Total
Winning
Bids[/td]
[td]Payments Received to Date
[SUP](Google Checkout, PayPal or other payment commissions not deducted)[/SUP][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 10, 2013[/td]
[td]$2,124.00[/td]
[td]$1,524[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 11, 2013[/td]
[td]$2,110.00[/td]
[td]$910[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 12, 2013[/td]
[td]$1,805.00[/td]
[td]$745[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 13, 2013[/td]
[td]$1,755.00[/td]
[td]$990[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 14, 2013[/td]
[td]$2,980.00[/td]
[td]$1,730[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 15, 2013[/td]
[td]$1,090.00[/td]
[td]$960[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 16, 2013[/td]
[td]$3,515.00[/td]
[td]$630[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 17, 2013[/td]
[td]$1,650.00[/td]
[td]$1,430[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 18, 2013[/td]
[td]$1,750[/td]
[td]$830[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]TOTALS:[/td]
[td]$18,779.00[/td]
[td]$9,749[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

[Kenike]

Paid for my auction win this morning (yay!). It may not be much, but a drop is better than nothing (and I will make another donation soon…just need to make sure I’m home to do so!).

Point being I’m excited about it

[Callmeacab]

What I’ve seen in this area (being a few miles from JB) is that the terrain varies greatly, in terms of type of soil and, especially, how rocky it is. Most of the soil is clay, though I don’t know what hers is.

I have lots of rock on my land, so I shoe mine, to protect the hooves and prevent stone bruises. A neighbor never shoes her horses and, what I’ve observed (on the same rocky land) is that some of her the horses have quarter cracks, which I would be sure to shoe, to prevent further damage.

Another neighbor had barefoot horses, again, on rocky terrain, and i saw chunks of hoof wall broken away.

It did state that JB’s horses are standing in mud, obviously she hasn’t done anything in the way of providing dry areas for them to stand, as recommended in one of the reports. Constantly standing in mud, probably clay soil, softens the feet and brings a host of problems and bruising.
Just my guess.

[mbm]

The soil in JBs area is not clay. It is sandy loam i believe. the place i boarded literally 2 miles down the road rarely had any kind of terrible mud - being sandy loam it drained well and dried quickly fwiw.

[Callmeacab]

[QUOTE=mbm;6789897]
The soil in JBs area is not clay. It is sandy loam i believe. the place i boarded literally 2 miles down the road rarely had any kind of terrible mud - being sandy loam it drained well and dried quickly fwiw.[/QUOTE]

If so, then why would JB’s property be so muddy? It’s amazing how the land varies around here.

[mbm]

the land does vary… however, where JB is is the same as where i boarded - in fact it is around the corner… the adobe starts east of 101 - not way out by the coast the mud is probably due to it being fresh land and not compressed by the horses yet…and of course not high area for the horse to stand…also remember that we had some crazy rain for a while there… my guess is the land is dry by now…

[Lord_Helpus]

[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;6788783]
Which is why I wondered a week ago if money had actually changed hands for this horse. Seems a little suspicious that the “new” owner couldnt find out any information on him. Maybe there was a contract, and he really is in bad enough shape that she backed out of it.[/QUOTE]

There is the possibility that, knowing what she did about JB, the buyer had the contract written that payment was not due until RS had arrived in good health.

That would have been the prudent thing to do when the contract was entered into (and even more prudent in hindsight!)

Just maybe, there is nothing funny going on about this sale. But since we are not privy to the language of the contract, we do not know. I, for one, choose to believe that the buyer was honest and honorable in her dealings with JB. Whether she does or doesn’t yet own RS (because payment was not due until he got on (or off) the van, and so was never paid) is not for us to say (nor to throw a pall of doubt over the buyer’s intentions and honesty).

[Indy-lou]

[QUOTE=EquusMagnificus;6789666]

Focus on the bad guy.[/QUOTE]
Good advice!

[Acertainsmile]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;6790006]
There is the possibility that, knowing what she did about JB, the buyer had the contract written that payment was not due until RS had arrived in good health.

That would have been the prudent thing to do when the contract was entered into (and even more prudent in hindsight!)

Just maybe, there is nothing funny going on about this sale. But since we are not privy to the language of the contract, we do not know. I, for one, choose to believe that the buyer was honest and honorable in her dealings with JB. Whether she does or doesn’t yet own RS (because payment was not due until he got on (or off) the van, and so was never paid) is not for us to say (nor to throw a pall of doubt over the buyer’s intentions and honesty).[/QUOTE]

Just want to make it clear that I never suspected the possible buyer (or new owner) of RS of any shady dealings, just that it was odd that she could not (to our knowledge) find out anything on his condition if she had actually purchased him.

[Joanne]

I posted this over on another thread, but thought I might post it here, too. Does anyone know how this worked out (or didn’t)?

---

I still remember and shudder at reading this thread. I wonder if the OP is a member here. Since they decided to lock it, I don’t know how it turned out, but someone called Jill, got “the other side of the story,” and decided to believe her.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-law/...o-point-94121/

[sid]

[QUOTE=sid;6788899]
All that caught my eye in his letter was a constitent use of…

“I think, I believe” we did such and such.

I’m 61 years old and my memory is failing trying to remember specifics about what happened 3 mos ago.:lol:

I keep good calendars for all horse needs that I refer to for worming, immunization, farrier and dental schedules to make sure they are up to date constantly. And am down to 11 from 23 for a whole lot of years!

Seriously, this statement was made on “recall”, not by fact or invoice. My farriers of 20+ years, always leave a receipt or work performed, as most “normal” business people do.

How the heck can a professional farrier recall which horses he/she did for a client 3 months later?..especially when there are so many of them.

What is also “telling” to me is that they would just wander the pastures and paddocks to see who needed doing, as a collaborative decision. He took the bait and made what should have been her mgmt decisions, his.

Poor guy, it seems to me, he’s stepped into the JB quicksand. .[/QUOTE]

Okay, those of us on the East Coast, or elsewhere for that matter, have only our own experience to go with re: trimming and the managment of that, particulary with a large herd as is the case with her. Our terrain is different, and as all good horsemen know, the terrain, weather conditions, use of the horse and seasons determine the protocal for good hoof care. Thanks, mbm, for pointing out that about California and how this varies so.

At one point I had 23 horses…stallions, broodies, babies, yearlings, yada yada. BUT they ALL had appointments in keeping with good horse husbandry. My farrier always gave me a receipt with the name of the horse and the cost to do that horse. I needed that not only for tax purposes, but in case of an IRS audit which so often happens to those who have horse farms. The biz thing vs. the hobby thing.

I would think that JB would have demanded a written receipt for tax purposes. Hobby horse owners don’t need that as it is not a tax deduction.

It would be likely if she could not keep her records straight on which mare was bred to who, and the state of her property, her horses and her “lab” (and I can’t even really call it that after those pics…:eek:), or really felt that she was above all of it, the IRS will be coming next, as well it should. If some people don’t file taxes the IRS has nowhere to go…well, now they do.

Want to clean the slate on the farrier issue. Poor guy, probably just called in to “do” horses, not having a clue he’d be dragged into this. It is/not his job to determine the condition of horses…just do them (though of course, we’d all love farriers that WOULD it sound the alarm bell about the premises and the physical condition othe horses they do. Doesn’t mean they are “bad”, just someone who wants to put their head in the sand.) Many people, put their heads in the sand, not only in the horse world but elsewhere.

Thanks to the OP for being a “whistelblower”, so that is good. Most people , in my experiene are just not brave. It doesn’t mean the are in collusion…just not brave. The vet the farrier. Who knows?

I, like others, now that it was pointed out by people more intelligent than me, suspect JB’s lawyers just told him what to write. Slappining myself for my own post. lol!!

[ReSomething]

USDA soils map shows the parcel as being 50% moderately well drained Tomales loam and 30% well drained Steinbeck loam, slopes 5-15 %. There’s no clay until you get down a bit. I grew up a bit south of there and we had clay loam, not adobe but related, and if you let it get churned up while it was wet it took forever to dry, similar to here in KY were it’s easy to get a muck soup.

I’d bet that the horses are confined to a small area that got churned up and it’s staying churned up, plus animal urine, water tank spillage, if they were rotated off that spot they shouldn’t have that problem for long.

Someone stated the parcel won’t perc - does anyone know why? There’s a home right across the private drive so at least for that parcel it perc’d - does it not meet the latest standards (not that much does) for new construction?

[AndNirina]

[QUOTE=sid;6790435]
Want to clean the slate on the farrier issue. Poor guy, probably just called in to “do” horses, not having a clue he’d be dragged into this. [/QUOTE]
And I actually don’t mean to condemn the farrier. I’m actually surprised that it’s the same person that Jill has had an association with for a sustained period of time. I wrote the initial check to him, and the other ‘shoeing’ was billed to me by Jill. I’m certain that it was not his fault that the mare was barefoot, I’m sure that directive came from Jill. I went over with her explicitly that the mare was to have shoes and pads on, at least in the front. Yes, my mare had been trimmed, but she needed more than trimming, and her issues arose from that.

The farrier seemed like a decent guy, was willing to speak with me directly afterwards, and I don’t mean to blame him for Jill’s mismanagement. Probably not someone I would use personally, but I have much different standards of care, thankfully, than Jill.