I too hope this thread stays open. People need to be aware and perhaps reminded.
[QUOTE=skydy;6550739]
Equine Driver a “plant”? 
Equine Driver has been a member of this forum since 2003.
I do understand your desire for back up, it can’t hurt…
However, I think that your worries about E.D. being a “plant” are a bit much. :)[/QUOTE]
I do not know ED, do you? and believe me, in RL there have been numerous times where someone has stepped forward to take the reins of something only to bungle the end result hugely - hence my aversion to putting all my eggs in one basket or relying solely on one person.
while i doubt that ED is a plant it makes sense to have a backup person who has all the same info just in case.
I for one am incredibly grateful for this thread.
Even with the previous threads about Jill Burnell’s business practices, I will admit I still watched her site for potential youngsters, as I am a real fan of Rotspon and Redwine is attractive. And some of her mares have good dual bloodlines for both dressage and hunters.
I don’t think any of the earlier threads even came close to divulging the true depth of the issues at Gray Fox Farm. After reading this I don’t know how a person could ethically support an operation that leaves dead foals lying around under tarps, doesn’t supply papers for horses purchased, and it would leave a person wondering if they would even receive the horse they purchase as well.
[QUOTE=Spectrum;6551419]
I for one am incredibly grateful for this thread.
Even with the previous threads about Jill Burnell’s business practices, I will admit I still watched her site for potential youngsters, as I am a real fan of Rotspon and Redwine is attractive. And some of her mares have good dual bloodlines for both dressage and hunters.
I don’t think any of the earlier threads even came close to divulging the true depth of the issues at Gray Fox Farm. After reading this I don’t know how a person could ethically support an operation that leaves dead foals lying around under tarps, doesn’t supply papers for horses purchased, and it would leave a person wondering if they would even receive the horse they purchase as well.[/QUOTE]
And leaves a person wondering what kind of health care her horses receive in general. Do mares or foals ever receive vaccinations, wormings, farrier care? Is she present for foalings? Does she dip navel stumps? Does she give foal enemas if needed? Does she monitor the mare for passing of the whole placenta? Does she run IgGs on newborn foals?
Yeah, I know lots of farm or ranch raised horses are born out in the fields without monitoring or neo natal care of any sort, but I would be totally PO’d if I was buying a foal from her and got a wormy, unthrifty-looking critter.
[QUOTE=Spectrum;6551419]
I for one am incredibly grateful for this thread.
Even with the previous threads about Jill Burnell’s business practices, I will admit I still watched her site for potential youngsters, as I am a real fan of Rotspon and Redwine is attractive. And some of her mares have good dual bloodlines for both dressage and hunters.
I don’t think any of the earlier threads even came close to divulging the true depth of the issues at Gray Fox Farm. After reading this I don’t know how a person could ethically support an operation that leaves dead foals lying around under tarps, doesn’t supply papers for horses purchased, and it would leave a person wondering if they would even receive the horse they purchase as well.[/QUOTE]
The obvious solution is to buy one from someone who already took all those risks for you and came out with a lovely, registered foal to show for it. :yes:
Yes, it would be incredibly disappointing to purchase an in utero foal (which is risky enough as it is) and have it go septic and be out $10,000. Or FPT, or any of the numerous other things that can and do frequently go wrong with foals.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;6551558]
Yeah, I know lots of farm or ranch raised horses are born out in the fields without monitoring or neo natal care of any sort, but I would be totally PO’d if I was buying a foal from her and got a wormy, unthrifty-looking critter.[/QUOTE]
The problem is with the misrepresentation. If a buyer purchases a foal from a ranch; they buy with full knowledge of the care, or lack of, the foal received and all is well.
The problem is if the foals were raised as if they were ranch-breds (without this being negative or condescending!) but paying the premium, Hilltop Farm-raised price.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;6551561]
The obvious solution is to buy one from someone who already took all those risks for you and came out with a lovely, registered foal to show for it. :yes:[/QUOTE]
See…I guess that’s where I disagree. If you purchase a foal from someone that bred one of their own using her stallions, you are indirectly supporting her. And, that’s part of the problem :(. Not to mention the difficulty getting stallion breeding certificates.
[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;6552427]
See…I guess that’s where I disagree. If you purchase a foal from someone that bred one of their own using her stallions, you are indirectly supporting her. And, that’s part of the problem :(. Not to mention the difficulty getting stallion breeding certificates.[/QUOTE]
I agree.
To “buy from someone who already took all those risks for you” does seem to be the lesser of two evils. Why go there?
There are many fine stallions available, and it is not necessary to support a dubious breeder. The descendants of the GFF stallions ,if they are proven worthy, should carry on , however dealing directly with the owner of an EVA positive stallion, one who has many legal, and breeding management issues, seems to me to be enabling the continuation of this debacle.
If intelligent , careful , breeders are able to get satisfaction(once) from Gray Fox Farms , they seem to be in the minority.
People do look to you (oh excellent breeders!) and if you keep breeding to her stallions , even though you have no intention of doing so, you ARE supporting her.
I have to ask… does she really own the stallions? I (secretly) always wondered where she got all of the money she spent on those stallions.
3 or 4 years ago when I first started talking to Jill, she mentioned a partner in Redwine and said there were “issues” with said partner and that she was in the process of buying out his share
I never knew who the partner was, wasnt my business to ask or know, but my understanding was that she did (according to her) buy out his share and Redwine was hers - free and clear
All I was told about him was that he wasnt involved in the horses at all, he was simply an investor and that was it
No idea if she had/has partners in any of the other stallions or not
[QUOTE=EquusMagnificus;6552136]
The problem is with the misrepresentation. If a buyer purchases a foal from a ranch; they buy with full knowledge of the care, or lack of, the foal received and all is well.
The problem is if the foals were raised as if they were ranch-breds (without this being negative or condescending!) but paying the premium, Hilltop Farm-raised price.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. For those prices, folks assume they are buying a healthy mare and/or foal that has had excellent care. And then they are shocked to receive an unthrifty looking animal in serious need of worming, good nutrition, and farrier work. As some people have mentioned on this thread and others, some of the foals have needed aggressive health care once they arrived at the buyer’s farm.
[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;6552427]
See…I guess that’s where I disagree. If you purchase a foal from someone that bred one of their own using her stallions, you are indirectly supporting her. And, that’s part of the problem :(. Not to mention the difficulty getting stallion breeding certificates.[/QUOTE]
Well I did get a breeding certificate and my filly is registered. Interesting to think she should be blackballed if I ever decided to sell her. Especially considering I had no idea what type of person Jill was nor what type of operation she ran when I bred to her stallion. Should I have her branded with a scarlet J or something so everyone will know to stay away from her?
Laurie, I think the difference between your filly and what they are talking about is you are not actively breeding to GFF stallions still.
[QUOTE=trubandloki;6552685]
Laurie, I think the difference between your filly and what they are talking about is you are not actively breeding to GFF stallions still.[/QUOTE]
This, Laurie ;). This. There’s a difference between those who bred unaware a few years ago and those that knowingly do business with her now. And remember…we essentially gave away a foal because we knew what was going on. My attitude was that in order to market the foal, we would essentially be endorsing what Jill was doing. Just absolutely could NOT do it. And no…we are NOT independently wealthy :(. We just try to do the right thing. In this particular instance, I’d like to think that we “did” manage to turn something really, really positive out of this mess.
You were really, really fortunate, Laurie. And, I think you recognize that as well. You ended up with a really beautiful foal. But you are also considerably more knowledgeable now. Would you attempt to do it again? Do you see my point? Others may be more eloquent at expressing it, but the old saying “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me” comes to mind. And yeah…I “am” one of those fools ;).
I don’t disagree with any of that but consider myself to be a victim in a sense as do many other of her clients that I have spoken with. I was lucky but was a potential victim nonetheless. We should never punish the victims and NEVER punish the animals. So even people who are breeding to her stallions now are potentially victims unless they know what is going on and chose to ignore it. How do we separate the people who know she is a criminal and ignore it and those who are completely blind sighted by the BS and have no idea? All of them are rolling the dice but only some of them know that.
I can’t even count how many times people have told me that they love my filly and want to breed to her sire to try to get a foal like her simply because they like my filly and have absolutely no idea of any of the drama surrounding this mess. We are getting the word out but there are still an incredible amount of people who have no idea.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;6552755]
I can’t even count how many times people have told me that they love my filly and want to breed to her sire to try to get a foal like her simply because they like my filly and have absolutely no idea of any of the drama surrounding this mess. We are getting the word out but there are still an incredible amount of people who have no idea.[/QUOTE]
But you see, Laurie…the fastest way to accomplish that is for the marketability to fall out. So long as people are willing to buy those offspring, the word won’t get out there. I’m sorry, but on this one, we “will” have to disagree. So long as the offspring sell, people will continue to breed. And as long as people continue to breed, the business will continue to prosper. 
Sad but true. Allowing ones self to become a victim is just as bad and there is certainly enough information out there now that there is absolutely no reason for it. I know of a few people who are convinced it won’t happen to them. A few of them are learning the hard way that they are not exempt. It’s hard to see them as victims when they “were” warned…repeatedly. Truly, this whole mess puts a blight on the entire industry.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;6552670]
Well I did get a breeding certificate and my filly is registered. Interesting to think she should be blackballed if I ever decided to sell her. Especially considering I had no idea what type of person Jill was nor what type of operation she ran when I bred to her stallion. Should I have her branded with a scarlet J or something so everyone will know to stay away from her?[/QUOTE]
Talk about punishing the victim! It’s silly to suggest that potential buyers not purchase a foal from a reputable breeder because the foal’s sire is Redwine, or one of Jill’s other stallions. Most breeders would run for the hills if they knew the stallion owner was dishonest, unreliable, etc., but as Laurie points out, she had no idea what kind of person Jill was or what kind of operation that she ran when she decided to breed her mare to Redwine.
Many breeders don’t have the financial means to visit the prospective stallion owner’s farm prior to selecting a stallion, and even if they did, there is no guarantee that they would see the conditions of Jill’s “breeding lab”, for example.
At the end of the day, the quality of the foal should speak for itself, regardless of the dishonet business practices of Jill.
You are a victim, Laurie.
I think that what they are saying is not punish the victims but do not support those who are supporting GFF now.
People who are still doing business with her, on purpose, even knowing what is going on.
[QUOTE=trubandloki;6552791]
You are a victim, Laurie.
I think that what they are saying is not punish the victims but do not support those who are supporting GFF now.
People who are still doing business with her, on purpose, even knowing what is going on.[/QUOTE]
This. Besides for what its worth your filly at current anyway is not on the market. So in her case there is no “punishing” her or you.
Also yes to some extent you are a victim you have to deal with this sort of fall out where you/she are stuck being affiliated with a stallion owned by a person notorious for unsavory and unethical behavior.
To get this cycle to stop there has to be either judgments made and enforced or some sort of commercial all stop in order to make a big enough statement that the current behavior will not be tolerated or endorsed. Think Boston Tea Party.
