Double bridle bitting advice

[equiniphile]

I have a gelding that’s having some issues with the double bridle, and I’m hoping COTH wisdom can point me in the right direction. Horse is a 13-y/o OTTB showing third level, schooling 4th, plus tempis down to the 2s. He’s a very fancy, expressive mover with a powerful engine and an extension to die for. This is a horse that consistently gets 8s for gaits and impulsion in good company.

I introduced the double bridle a little over a year ago and have used it sporadically since, ranging from once every six weeks to twice a week. The bradoon is a Sprenger Balhenhol single-joint, and the curb is a Neue Schule Starter. His snaffle is a Sprenger Balkenhol as well, in which he goes very well, if not a bit heavy at times.

The issue we have is that he doesn’t want to take a firm contact and push from behind when in the double. His neck will be in the right place, head will be on the vertical, and his shoulders will stay up with lots of front end expression. However, he gives me no place to sit in the trot and feels like he’s not truly on the aids. If I switch to rising trot and send him forward like I would a young horse to encourage a bigger step behind, he gets bigger and floatier, but doesn’t take hold of the bridle enough to have quality contact, nor does he give me an easy place to sit. Lately I’ve been working on this big, forward trot when in the double, as well as doing endless transitions to try and fix the throughness issue. The canter also feels a bit disjointed in the double, but not to the extent that the trot is.

I’m a bit stumped at this point. We don’t have these issues in the snaffle, and when I ride him in the double, I use the curb very sparingly. In the snaffle, he has a lovely, expressive but adjustable trot that is very easy to sit, and we have no issues with evading the contact. I tried an eggbutt bradoon once about 6 weeks ago and didn’t notice a difference. Should I give the eggbutt another shot? Switch to a curb like the Neue Schule Slimma, which is slightly thinner with more of a defined port? He has a small mouth, which has me wondering if he just doesn’t have enough room to comfortably carry the two bits.

Any and all advice appreciated! TIA!

[Sadiegem]

My double experience is small but I wonder if you can use no curb at all for now. Leave the curb rein loose until he is accepting all the stuff in his mouth. Once you have a consistent feel between the snaffle and the double, slowly introduce the feel of the curb.

[alibi_18]

How is your bit placement?
Are you putting the bradoon higher than its regular snaffle?
If so, remove the curb and ride with the bradoon only for a few sessions. See how it goes.

Some horses need time to get use to the weight of both bits. TBs are usually quite sensitive.
How is the chain attached? Maybe switch to a leather/rubber only one.
Finding a thinner curb or one shaped differently could be a solution.

When I introduce the double, I usually start by only doing long and low warm up and nice working gaits for a while as I don’t want the bridle to be associated with collection and hard work.

[equiniphile]

Thanks for the advice. I introduced the double on hack days only over a year ago, then slowly started adding some stretchy/light days, and gradually asking for more and more. I’m essentially leaving the curb rain draped, and occasionally using the curb very minimally so he gets used to the feeling of the curb engaging a bit. This doesn’t seem to set off any fireworks or bother him.

I hadn’t thought about using a curb chain cover; I’ll give that a shot. The bradoon is placed about where the snaffle would be, and the bit is identical apart from the smaller ring size.

[MysticOakRanch]

What about his mouth - size and shape of palette and mouth? Next time he has dental work done, you might ask your vet/dentist that question. Some horses just don’t have as much ROOM in their mouth.

Then - what thickness are your bits? I find, generally, everything needs to get THINNER because there is a lot of metal in the mouth. Actually, for some horses, thinner and LIGHTER. When I had my stallion, he actually ended up going best in a very lightweight $40 curb from Dover - seriously. After spending a fortune on high end HS curbs, and borrowing as many as possible, that became his obvious bit of choice
https://www.doversaddlery.com/lightw…urb/p/X1-0154/

I’m in the process of introducing a double to my mare - have been riding her in it for about 3 months now, 2 days/week. And there is a definite progression in comfort level - she actually goes BETTER in the double now. I have her in a basic 14 mm HS curb and a double link 12mm KK bradoon - I played around with various combinations, and that was her favorite. Luckily, I had several (from the last horse) to try out.

[theresak]

Try a straight mullen curb? That helped my horse be a lot more confident than a ported curb. I also use a leather curb chain and a lip strap to help stabilize the whole setup on his face.

However, my horse was never super comfortable with the action of the curb in the highly collected movements (it clearly demonstrated a connection problem on the right side). He was out for a while due to injury and when I rehabbed, we had a lot of issues related to that right side that had to be dealt with in the snaffle. We are now at the point over a year later that I think about putting him back in the double to just be able to say he can “go in a double.” I don’t plan on taking him to CDIs and he can do all of the GP in the snaffle without an issue.

If you don’t find the double is really helping anything and don’t plan on doing CDIs, there’s no reason you have to ride in the double all that regularly.

[theresak]

@MysticOakRanch

What about his mouth - size and shape of palette and mouth? Next time he has dental work done, you might ask your vet/dentist that question. Some horses just don’t have as much ROOM in their mouth.

Then - what thickness are your bits? I find, generally, everything needs to get THINNER because there is a lot of metal in the mouth. Actually, for some horses, thinner and LIGHTER. When I had my stallion, he actually ended up going best in a very lightweight $40 curb from Dover - seriously. After spending a fortune on high end HS curbs, and borrowing as many as possible, that became his obvious bit of choice
https://www.doversaddlery.com/lightw…urb/p/X1-0154/

I’m in the process of introducing a double to my mare - have been riding her in it for about 3 months now, 2 days/week. And there is a definite progression in comfort level - she actually goes BETTER in the double now. I have her in a basic 14 mm HS curb and a double link 12mm KK bradoon - I played around with various combinations, and that was her favorite. Luckily, I had several (from the last horse) to try out.

I think the NS bits are very lightweight compared to the Herm Sprenger. I use a Mors L’Hotte and it’s significantly lighter than the HS ported and Korsteel mullen I tried. The Lorenzini bits are also supposed to be very light.

Also, my horse has a very short “smile” (front of muzzle to corner of lips) and not a ton of room to fit both bits as prescribed, so I think that contributes to his insecurity since they are both sort of crammed together.

[equiniphile]

I so appreciate all the advice. Thank you all.

The Balkenhol is 14mm and the NS curb is 16mm. I understand that it’s not required if he doesn’t have CDIs in his future, but I think it’s a good skill for a horse to have and would like to work through it since it’s obviously an issue for him.

Vet is coming out this afternoon for spring vaccines and dentals, so I’ll be sure to pick her brain about his mouth shape. He does have a small “smile” and is very sensitive to boot…we typically have to float every 6 months because even the tiniest hooks can change his way of going.

Things on my list to try so far: wrapped curb chain, eggbutt bradoon, Mullen mouth curb, smaller curb (NS Slimma?)

ETA: The NS Slimma is 14mm, would this be a good one to try? http://www.dressageextensions.com/ns-slimma-weymouth-14mm/p/10353/?eid=WGSH00&utm_source=google&utm_medium=PLA&mrkgcl=1132&mrkgadid=3208381967&rkg_id=h-a63c179978b48cd0583448d4205c535e_t-1520608904&utm_campaign=NB_PLA_AllProducts_GOOG&adpos=1o2&creative=195602689636&device=m&matchtype=&network=g

[MysticOakRanch]

16 mm is pretty big for a horse with a short mouth. It may just be too much in his mouth - if you can borrow something smaller (or do one of the bit rental services), I would give that a try!

[crthunder]

My OTTB has a HS “HO” curb in the short shank. I found this was harder to find (I got mine at Dressage Extensions because what Smartpak listed as “short shank” was not). I believe it is 2cm shorter than the standard curb. His bradoon is the HS dynamic ultra loose ring which is similar to his regular snaffle but has a big more curve which seems to make it fit in his mouth with the curb better. He also wears an Equifit gel chain cover. I recommend the bit trial program (DE has it) so you don’t have to buy lots of bits. So happy to hear another OTTB is moving well up the levels!

Becky & Red

[theresak]

@equiniphile

I so appreciate all the advice. Thank you all.

The Balkenhol is 14mm and the NS curb is 16mm. I understand that it’s not required if he doesn’t have CDIs in his future, but I think it’s a good skill for a horse to have and would like to work through it since it’s obviously an issue for him.

Vet is coming out this afternoon for spring vaccines and dentals, so I’ll be sure to pick her brain about his mouth shape. He does have a small “smile” and is very sensitive to boot…we typically have to float every 6 months because even the tiniest hooks can change his way of going.

Things on my list to try so far: wrapped curb chain, eggbutt bradoon, Mullen mouth curb, smaller curb (NS Slimma?)

ETA: The NS Slimma is 14mm, would this be a good one to try? http://www.dressageextensions.com/ns-slimma-weymouth-14mm/p/10353/?eid=WGSH00&utm_source=google&utm_medium=PLA&mrkgcl=1132&mrkgadid=3208381967&rkg_id=h-a63c179978b48cd0583448d4205c535e_t-1520608904&utm_campaign=NB_PLA_AllProducts_GOOG&adpos=1o2&creative=195602689636&device=m&matchtype=&network=g

I understand about the “good skill to have.” I basically want my horse to be able to have “goes in a double” on his resume in case something were to happen and he was looking for a new home.

Keep trialing everything you have listed above. If you can figure out if he doesn’t push into the bridle due to something specific, work on that (like it’s the leverage, the curb chain action, etc.).

Ultimately, you need to figure out where the tiny hole is in your connection in the snaffle and working on fixing it there; the double is just showing you there’s something that needs to be corrected. Likely in the snaffle you and the horse are able to work around it but with the extra leverage and chin pressure in the curb, it’s showing up clearly there. If you can get someone who has ridden a lot of horses in a double to ride him (your trainer?), they might be able to help figure out where the issue is. And I’m not saying you have a huge issue with your connection and everything is terrible, but there’s probably one tiny thing that is just emphasized in the double.

[Mondo]

You have received a lot of good advice here. I’m going to throw something else out: do you compete? If so, do you complete at the International level?

If not, if you only go to shows governed by USEF rules, can’t you continue to compete in just a snaffle at the upper levels? Maybe your horse just doesn’t like the feeling of so much hardware in his mouth. Compete in a snaffle all the way to GP. That’s some serious bragging rights right there. Get your Gold in a snaffle.

[IslandDQ]

As mentioned above, some horses do better with a lighter curb. I too tried many expensive and ergo HS curbs both standard and short shank. In the end I by fluke tried a cheap light hollow curb and a gel curb cover…and haven’t looked back it’s been the combo for him. His snaffle and bradoon are the HS Dynamic.

[equiniphile]

Thank you for the advice! I ordered an EquiFit curb chain cover and will find a few different curbs to try. Vet was out for spring shots and dentals today, and the consensus is that he doesn’t have a low palate per se, but the roof of his mouth is very narrow. My vet recommended looking for a thinner curb with a port that’s localized to the center, so I think the NS Slimma is a good one to try.

[mlb722]

IMO you should try thinner bits. My Arab has a very small mouth and low palette. I have her in a mors le hotte Mullen curb and a 10mm French link baucher. I’ve tried almost every bradoon out there and this is the only thing that works for her. I thought the curb was the issue but actually it was the bradoon. The eggbut was the worst, but I tried loose rings also.

Her snaffle is a 12mm D ring bit. She also needed 4 3/4 " bits, 5" was too long. I literally could not get her connected in the double, just about gave up until I tried the baucher, which is usef legal, but not FEI.

[IslandDQ]

@equiniphile

Thank you for the advice! I ordered an EquiFit curb chain cover and will find a few different curbs to try. Vet was out for spring shots and dentals today, and the consensus is that he doesn’t have a low palate per se, but the roof of his mouth is very narrow. My vet recommended looking for a thinner curb with a port that’s localized to the center, so I think the NS Slimma is a good one to try.

If you can, try the slimma before you buy it. It was one that I tried as I thought that might be a good option for mine too, it actually ended up being greatly disliked by him I think due to the more concentrated pressure on his bars. I bought and sold sooo many bits! Next time I will ask around my friends etc. more to try before buy. We don’t have many bit trial companies that serve Canada, if there was that option I’d go that route!

[Jackie_Cochran]

Somewhere I have a reprint of a German book about bits and saddles “On Seats and Saddles: Bits and Bitting and the Prevention and Cure of Restiveness in Horses”, by Francis Dwyer, first published in 1923. The author was in the German cavalry and dealt with thousands of horses.

He wrote that the width of the curb bit was critical. If the mouth piece was wider than the horse’s mouth that that curb would irritate the horse a lot. The brandoon should be at least 1/4" inch wider than the curb bit, but according to this author the width of the brandoon was nowhere as critical as the width of the curb.

He was also picky about the height of the purchase of the curb (from mouth to the headstall hole.) This is easier to find, he said that the purchase should not be more than 1 1/2" (if I remember correctly). His reference measurement for this was the depth of the lower jaw between the bars of the mouth and the bottom of the curb groove, he wrote that curb bits with bigger measurements there just did not work well with the curb chains.

I recommend reading this book. The author is very focused on getting the correct bit fit for each horse.

[alibi_18]

@Jackie Cochran

Somewhere I have a reprint of a German book about bits and saddles “On Seats and Saddles: Bits and Bitting and the Prevention and Cure of Restiveness in Horses”, by Francis Dwyer, first published in 1923. The author was in the German cavalry and dealt with thousands of horses.

He wrote that the width of the curb bit was critical. If the mouth piece was wider than the horse’s mouth that that curb would irritate the horse a lot. The brandoon should be at least 1/4" inch wider than the curb bit, but according to this author the width of the brandoon was nowhere as critical as the width of the curb.

He was also picky about the height of the purchase of the curb (from mouth to the headstall hole.) This is easier to find, he said that the purchase should not be more than 1 1/2" (if I remember correctly). His reference measurement for this was the depth of the lower jaw between the bars of the mouth and the bottom of the curb groove, he wrote that curb bits with bigger measurements there just did not work well with the curb chains.

I recommend reading this book. The author is very focused on getting the correct bit fit for each horse.

I wish I could find a paper copy but,

The book is free of rights!
I downloaded the Pdf version, + 300pages.

https://archive.org/details/onseatssaddlesbi00dwyerich

[equiniphile]

This is all very helpful, thank you! I found a Slimma in his size used on Facebook, so I snatched it up. If it doesn’t work, I can probably resell it fairly easily.

[CFFarm]

It’s pretty much trial and error.