Double Bridle in the Hunter Ring

[Ceylon_Star]

I haven’t been able to find a straight answer, and EC is a fustercluck, so need to ask you guys:

What is the rule regarding the bradoon of a double bridle in the hunter ring? Does it need to be a loose ring, or can I use his baucher (as is his preference/what we use at home)? If not the baucher, is a small-ringed eggbutt okay instead of a loose ring?

I’m in Canada, but I would expect the rules regarding double bridles to be similar in both Canada and the US.

Yes, I realize it would be “easier” and more “conventional” to go with a pelham instead of a double, but my pony really dislikes how muddy the signals are in a pelham and gets anxious and is more likely to bolt. We only use the double over fences, and 99% of the time I can easily ride off the snaffle rein only. Flat rides are in a double jointed snaffle with lozenge. Unfortunately, due to a previous injury leaving me with permanent nerve damage and extremely limited sensation in my left leg, I really need to bit of extra help/lift of the curb if he decides to drop/tank as I cannot feel (and in turn, use) the leg to support and lift correctly. A tweak of a pinky finger on the curb rein is, in my opinion, more fair to him than if I were to haul on his face in a snaffle to get the same effect. Going in a stronger mouthpiece snaffle to try to prevent the drop/tank is also not an option for him as he is known to rear and flip in single joints or anything with texture such as a slow twist. He responds much better to having his favourite snaffle with the separate curb as backup only when needed.

[fordtraktor]

I’ve been around H/Js for a long time and I’ve never seen a double bridle in the hunter ring except sidesaddle or Corinthian classes. It hasn’t been done for 30 years. You can do it but be aware it will be viewed your horse is “difficult.” not exactly “unconventional tack” but it’s likely to factor in.

I would try a French link lozenge Pelham as they are much more accepted. you don’t have to use the bottom rein at all until you need it. it shouldn’t be confusing if you are using the reins independently.

If you want to just go for it anyway I would use the eggbutt bradoon instead of the baucher.

[Synthesis]

EC Rules
Article G202 Tack and Equipment
Bridle: The bridle may be double, pelham, single (snaffle) or
kimberwick. It must be leather (not rubber covered), rolled or plain and
may be buckled, sewn or studded (not snapped).

[Ceylon_Star]

We tried a lozenge link pelham before trying the double, and because it collapses when curb is added, instead of engaging the curb chain smoothly, it results in him basically saying “oh dear god, what do you want from me?!” and taking off.

So then we tried a mullen mouth pelham, and a low port pelham, and he loathed the feel of the solid mouthed snaffle action. Tested the theory by doing a ride in a loose ring mullen mouth (because it had more “noise” than a fixed cheek mullen mouth, but not as much as a jointed mouthpiece would, and he still gaped and threw his head and popped his front end.

The conventionality doesn’t bother me, really. He’s not really a hunter by north american standards, and I am very much aware of that, but I’m of the belief that we have no business stepping foot in the jumper ring until we have a season in the hunters under our belts first. Showing is scary enough, we don’t need to dive head first into the deep end and go do tight turns and match the clock out on grass if we can’t get around a nice flowy hunter course without dying. Haha!!

[Ceylon_Star]

Synthesis - Thanks. I’ve seen the rule stating a double is legal, but I can’t find anything regarding the bits used in the double bridle setup. EC has been giving me the run-around when I’ve tried contacting them to find out.

[Synthesis]

I wouldn’t worry. As long as it isn’t an elevator or gag, no one cares about the actual mouthpiece.

And I’m pretty obsessive about following the letter of the rule.

[Ceylon_Star]

It’s more the cheekpiece of the bradoon i’m worried about. Pony’s fat lips make a loose ring less than ideal, and he LOVES his baucher, but I got accused at a show last year (doing flat hunter under saddle) of my baucher being a gag and told I had to change or I could no longer ride that day, so I’m a bit paranoid about cheekpieces now! haha

Looks like I’ll go with an eggbutt just to be safe. Thanks guys

[fordtraktor]

There are so many teeny tiny jumper classes. I’d do a couple hunter classes at a show then just do the 2’ jumpers or whatever. The old “do the hunters for a while first” was MUCH more true when jumpers started at 3’6. Now I don’t consider it really relevant.

[fordtraktor]

Also, don’t worry about the clock with a young horse. Go and make super wide turns to the end of the ring if he needs time. Trot. He isn’t going to win in the hunters, why worry about time in the jumpers either? it is about experience.

[hoopoe]

well, to pull from a different rule book. In dressage a baucher ( hanging) bradoon is permitted. Must be a minimum 10mm thick.

[pattnic]

Given your reasons for doing the hunters and that you’re likely not going to win in a double, I wouldn’t worry too much about the bradoon.

Another thread on the subject:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?396286-Showing-a-Hunter-in-a-Double-Bridle

As a thought: have you tried a Pelham with a single joint? That would be less noisy than a lozenge mouthpiece, but still less solid than a mullen mouth. There are some available with a curved mouthpiece (like the JP Korsteel ones), which are a bit kinder to the horse’s mouth than the older style single-jointed snaffles (less or no nutcracker effect).

[Ceylon_Star]

Single jointed anything ends in a rear-and-flip. Eek! So we stay far away from single jointed bits. Anything that can poke him in the roof of his mouth is grounds for a gigantic temper tantrum.

Full disclosure - pony is not a youngster. He’s 13, but has only been going under saddle properly for a hair under 4 years. Between being semi-feral for most of his youth, in a paddock with a bunch of other young stallions, then gelded as an almost 9 year old before being very poorly broken, and then finally getting started from the ground up when I got my paws on him, he’s still fairly green for his age. But he’s a pretty solid citizen as long as his comfort (physical and mental) is made a priority.

The shows in my area that offer both hunters and jumpers start the jumpers at 2’6, which is a bit higher than I’d like to start him off showing at. There are also more schooling show options for hunters than for jumpers, and again, even the schooling shows start at 2’6 for jumpers. Hunters we can start at 2’ or 2’3 depending, and some of the smaller clubs offer cross pole hunter, haha!

[Synthesis]

[QUOTE=Ceylon Star;8999560]

The shows in my area that offer both hunters and jumpers start the jumpers at 2’6, which is a bit higher than I’d like to start him off showing at. There are also more schooling show options for hunters than for jumpers, and again, even the schooling shows start at 2’6 for jumpers. Hunters we can start at 2’ or 2’3 depending, and some of the smaller clubs offer cross pole hunter, haha![/QUOTE]

You know, there’s a lot about what you’ve said that reminds me of my girl’s start, including the semi-feral youth. She too is becoming a solid citizen, but you have to work with her instead of against her.

Have you considered bopping around pre-entry eventing in addition to hj, or even instead of? Your normal bit is no problem for dressage. The double is no issue for stadium or xc, nor are the mouthpieces you’ve described. You can trot the XC without time issues and its a simpler than jumper stadium course.

It sounds like its right in the sweet spot that you need. Especially at schooling trials, pre-entry is usually right at the height you’re looking for with the hunters.

[Ceylon_Star]

[QUOTE=Synthesis;8999599]
You know, there’s a lot about what you’ve said that reminds me of my girl’s start, including the semi-feral youth. She too is becoming a solid citizen, but you have to work with her instead of against her.

Have you considered bopping around pre-entry eventing in addition to hj, or even instead of? Your normal bit is no problem for dressage. The double is no issue for stadium or xc, nor are the mouthpieces you’ve described. You can trot the XC without time issues and its a simpler than jumper stadium course.

It sounds like its right in the sweet spot that you need. Especially at schooling trials, pre-entry is usually right at the height you’re looking for with the hunters.[/QUOTE]

I’d LOVE to go tool around XC, but right now, with my chest surgery being up in the air as far as when it’ll happen, my biggest roadblock for playing out on the XC course is actually the safety vest part. I don’t know anyone with a vest big enough for my stocky build and well-endowedness, but if I were to invest (haha) in a vest that fits right now, that will be when I get my surgery date and will have to turn around and buy a new one, and sadly that just isn’t in the cards right now. I REALLY hope to get my surgery date soon and get it over with and be healed up in time for XC Camp an hour away from me at the start of July, but that might be wishful thinking.

At least with the h/j I’ve got clothes that fit, good clean tack, and two of the groups that offer the biggest variety of classes are hosted at facilities just a short hack from home. Bonus! We also get to hack down to shows hosted by one of the dressage clubs, and they’re a lot of fun too.

And yes, my guy is the same as far as needing to work with him instead of against him. I both love, and hate, his crossing. He’s a morganXhaflinger, so is sharp as a whip, surprisingly flashy for something so stocky, and is game to try anything, but god forbid I lose his focus for even a nanosecond. Or, even if i’ve got it, there’s nothing saying he won’t decide to play the “opposite game” where he decides that moving INTO leg pressure is more fun than moving OFF of the leg pressure (9 times out of 10 he’ll do it with my GOOD leg, rather than the bad one, which is a huge pain in the butt, but at least it isn’t as potentially dangerous for me, haha). And I might as well kiss my butt goodbye if he decides to lock that super short, super THICK neck (which he somehow manages to do by locking from withers to poll, but staying fairly loose through the actual poll, which is quite possibly the worst thing ever for anyone riding at the time!)

Love him to death, but he’s anything but conventional :lol:

[IPEsq]

Double bridles are allowed and considered conventional. I believe a baucher falls under the broader allowance for “snaffles”.

I remember a couple years ago reading about a horse doing well in the high performance in a double, but I don’t know what the snaffle bit was.

[DarkBayUnicorn]

Am I the only one who simply cannot fathom a double bridle as “conventional” on a show hunter (and by show, I mean C,B,A, A/A leapers) in North America?

I’m working toward my card, and I would like to say that I would have to see superbly superlative jumping style from the horse in a double in order for it to get a call over anything in a snaffle.

If your horse doesn’t touch its knees to its ears in that double bridle. Sorry. Can’t pin it.

[Ceylon_Star]

[QUOTE=DarkBayUnicorn;8999657]
Am I the only one who simply cannot fathom a double bridle as “conventional” on a show hunter (and by show, I mean C,B,A, A/A leapers) in North America?

I’m working toward my card, and I would like to say that I would have to see superbly superlative jumping style from the horse in a double in order for it to get a call over anything in a snaffle.

If your horse doesn’t touch its knees to its ears in that double bridle. Sorry. Can’t pin it.[/QUOTE]

And that’s perfectly fine. My priority is keeping my pony happy, and myself safe, while we make our way down our path, one step at a time. Highest we might go as far as recognized showing in hunters would be silver. Most of what we’d be doing would be bronze and discovery.

As I said, he’s not a conventional show hunter by any means, so we aren’t going to pin well, if at all, regardless of tack. But I’m not looking to get DQ’d over a wrongly chosen cheekpiece on a bradoon (as I nearly was for a “wrong” cheekpiece on my snaffle in the flat classes last summer, despite nothing in any of the discipline rulebooks saying my baucher was illegal, and several rules stating a buacher is a legal snaffle [especially in dressage], and the judge being adamant that the rule stating a baucher is a snaffle is a lie and that my bit was, in fact, a gag. sigh) :lol:

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=DarkBayUnicorn;8999657]
Am I the only one who simply cannot fathom a double bridle as “conventional” on a show hunter (and by show, I mean C,B,A, A/A leapers) in North America?

I’m working toward my card, and I would like to say that I would have to see superbly superlative jumping style from the horse in a double in order for it to get a call over anything in a snaffle.

If your horse doesn’t touch its knees to its ears in that double bridle. Sorry. Can’t pin it.[/QUOTE]

You need to keep studying the rule book. You cannot penalize someone for using a double unless they’ve got something else unconventional going on like a drop noseband.

HU126 Tack

1. Snaffles, pelhams and full bridles, all with cavesson nose bands, are required.
   a. Judges may penalize, but may not eliminate, a horse or pony that competes in a snaffle, pelham, or full bridle
   that is unconventional. Unconventional snaffles, pelhams, or full bridles include, but are not limited to, hunter
   gags, kimberwickes, etc.
   b. Judges must eliminate a horse or pony that competes in illegal bits or nosebands. Illegal bits include, but are not
   limited to, three rings, gags (other than the hunter gag), et cetera… Illegal nosebands include, but are not limited
   to, drop, flash and figure eight nosebands.
2. Horses must return to the ring for conformation or soundness wearing a snaffle, pelham or full bridle with a cavesson
   noseband.

[IPEsq]

Won’t let me edit, meant to say “unless they’ve got something else unconventional or illegal going on…”

[JenEM]

[QUOTE=DarkBayUnicorn;8999657]
Am I the only one who simply cannot fathom a double bridle as “conventional” on a show hunter (and by show, I mean C,B,A, A/A leapers) in North America?

I’m working toward my card, and I would like to say that I would have to see superbly superlative jumping style from the horse in a double in order for it to get a call over anything in a snaffle.

If your horse doesn’t touch its knees to its ears in that double bridle. Sorry. Can’t pin it.[/QUOTE]

It’s uncommon nowadays, but absolutely, 100% traditional and correct formal turnout for a hunter. I believe sidesaddle is our last division that still has a formal appointments requirement, and we have to show in that in a pelham or double.

While I can see a bit like a pelham or double being used as a tiebreaker in otherwise quality trips, as a legal bit/bridle choice explicitly mentioned in the rules, it’s a valid choice that shouldn’t be penalized in and of itself. It’s like showing in a loose ring: you don’t see it very often, but it’s a perfectly legal choice.