Rubber mullen Pelham? Maybe would provide the right amount of give?
[QUOTE=JenEM;8999734]
It’s uncommon nowadays, but absolutely, 100% traditional and correct formal turnout for a hunter. I believe sidesaddle is our last division that still has a formal appointments requirement, and we have to show in that in a pelham or double.
While I can see a bit like a pelham or double being used as a tiebreaker in otherwise quality trips, as a legal bit/bridle choice explicitly mentioned in the rules, it’s a valid choice that shouldn’t be penalized in and of itself. It’s like showing in a loose ring: you don’t see it very often, but it’s a perfectly legal choice.[/QUOTE]
Bolding is mine
This. And that traditional, oldschool turnout also happens to be what’s most flattering to myself and my cobby boy. Primarily, it’s what happens to work for us, but it’s a bonus that he looks pretty skookum in it to boot. Haha.
I get teased a lot by riding buddies who say I am a little old Irishman out for the Sunday hunt, but it’s a pretty darn accurate description of the pair of us! :winkgrin:
[QUOTE=Peggy;8999756]
Rubber mullen Pelham? Maybe would provide the right amount of give?[/QUOTE]
Too fat. He has a really fat tongue, low soft palette, and not a ton of space between his bars. So while he has an outwardly large muzzle, inside his mouth is less so. Thinner mouthpieces are much more comfortable.
I did think of that though, or a happy mouth type mouthpiece. But then I remembered the first bits I tried on him when I was restarting him (nice, soft, fat mouthpieces of varying shapes) and they just aren’t for him.
“You need to keep studying the rule book. You cannot penalize someone for using a double unless they’ve got something else unconventional going on like a drop noseband.”
Ah, I didn’t make myself clear: so as much as a double bridle is “conventional” in an historical/traditional sense, it is no longer a common sight outside of appointments classes, which are themselves becoming very rare (more the pity). In my 35 years showing hunters, I’ve never seen one used in a rated division.
With all other things being equal, the horse in the snaffle will win over the one in the double. A double bridle, unfortunately, gives the suggestion the horse is tough. From the box, you don’t get the benefit of knowing the background on a horse, or the reason for various tack choices. So I will stand by the comment that it will need to jump in superlative fashion.
And you will inevitably come across judges who do NOT know it’s legal, and WILL penalize or at least query. Prepare to have many chats with stewards. I can remember a friend showing her hunter in a running (also perfectly legal) and her having to whip out that page of the rule book almost every week.
Now, the horse person and rider in me knows damn well that you use the bit/bridle that works for you and your horse. I think the folks who claim every horse should go in a fat snaffle are incredibly closed-minded.
OP, I know others have suggested it, but why not go with baby jumper classes?
I’ll take a stab at answering this for you. As background, I am an EC Senior Hunter, Hack & Equitation judge, hunter/jumper steward and USEF R Hunter, Hunter Breeding & Hunt Seat judge. I also have a long background in dressage and am also an EC dressage steward.
A double bridle is perfectly legal in the hunter ring under both EC and USEF rules and is consider conventional tack. As someone else mentioned, it was traditional tack many moons ago…but the fact that it is rarely used in this day and age doesn’t mean it’s unconventional…just rarely used. 
Running martingale are allowed in the hunter ring too. Rarely used…but legal.
Your baucher bit is perfectly legal double bridle hunter tack as well. It is neither a leverage or gag bit. Just a more funky looking snaffle. That being said, be prepared that some judges will not know or understand what it is. Be prepared that some stewards will not know or understand what it is. A lot of specific detail is not in our rulebooks or even discussed in clinics. As a result, judges and stewards have to rely on their past experience in order to deal with some of the more interesting things we see in the warm-up and show rings. I’m guessing there are a few hunter/jumper judges and stewards who do not have experience with double bridles. As a result, you may get some interesting answers in regards to your baucher. So make sure you come prepared.
Am I the only one who simply cannot fathom a double bridle as “conventional” on a show hunter (and by show, I mean C, B, A, A/A leapers) in North America.
I’m working towards my card, and I would like to say that I would have to see a superbly superlative jumping style from the horse in a double bridle in order for it to get a call over anything in a snaffle.
If your horse doesn’t touch its knees to its ears in that double bridle. Sorry. Can’t pin it.
It’s your opinion, but it would be wrong to do so (in regards to the highlighted text). However you want to look at it, double bridles are considered CONVENTIONAL tack. Doesn’t matter if it hasn’t been in the ring for 35 years. Just like the running martingale, it is considered legal tack in the hunter ring.
That being said, and as you noted elsewhere, a horse showing in a pelham or double bridle will get noted on my judges card, and may come into play before I pin the class…or may not. As mentioned already, a horse going around the hunter ring in a pelham or double bridle could be “perceived” as a more difficult horse, so if compared to a SIMILAR round ridden in a D ring snaffle, may pin below that. But to say that you would refuse to pin the horse, regardless of the rest of the trip as a whole, simply because the horse is going in a double bridle and doesn’t touch its knees to its ears…well, I guess that is your opinion.
[QUOTE=Ceylon Star;8999530]
It’s more the cheekpiece of the bradoon i’m worried about. Pony’s fat lips make a loose ring less than ideal, and he LOVES his baucher, but I got accused at a show last year (doing flat hunter under saddle) of my baucher being a gag and told I had to change or I could no longer ride that day, so I’m a bit paranoid about cheekpieces now! haha
Looks like I’ll go with an eggbutt just to be safe. Thanks guys :)[/QUOTE]
Is this at the same show where you were DQ’d for not having chains on your romels?
I think that you just need to either go to better shows, use more conventional tack or accept that you’re going to stick out like a sore thumb for better or worse.
Squirt: yep, same show. Won’t be attending with that judge again. the experience wasn’t worth the headache, sadly. There’s questioning my tack, and there’s pinning me lower based on my choices, but when a judge insists that a written rule is wrong and her perception of my bit is correct, that’s just not okay.
Daventry: thanks so much! I don’t mind the questioning. I’m happy to explain, or pull up the rulebook or what have you. As long as it’s done respectfully. Respect me and I’ll be much more likely to treat you the same way!
DarkBayUnicorn: thanks for the clarification. That is entirely fair, and I wouldn’t expect a judge to think otherwise. As for the baby jumpers, if I can find somewhere here that offers jumpers lower than 2’6, I’ll happily do that over hunters any day. However, with pony never having shown over fences, and myself being out of that ring for a solid decade, I feel that 2’6 jumpers is a bit much for us to start with when the goal is to go have a positive experience.
Think you might want to broaden your circle of friends and connections given the erroneous information you’ve been getting presented as “facts” by judges at two shows in two disciplines and a somewhat unsupportive reaction by “friends”.
A double is conventional for hunters. I don’t think, though, I would use a baucher bradoon, and I think that could be considered unconventional. I think best would be a loose ring bradoon, but an eggbut bradoon ought to be fine as well.
Findeight: same judge, two day show. One day English, one day western.
I do need a better social circle though, in general.
Oh, same judge both days for both disciplines, lucky you…
Are there any clinic coming up in your area in any discipline you can audit? Meet some new people, learn something for your toolbox?
For what it’s worth, Randy Roy did just say in Horse Sport that there were items of tack that, although legal, he didn’t want to see. He didn’t come right out and say he wouldn’t use a horse presented in such tack, so I’m not really sure how he’d deal with being presented a horse in tack he didn’t like.
I would think Randy knows the rules, so for me anyways, it was an interesting read. It’s tough to say much more about it given the lack of context (it would be very interesting to discuss it), but I think the take home message is that if you’re not presenting the horse in a “standard” manner of turnout, be prepared for the judge to not use you or pin you lower than you might expect.
I occasionally show side saddle in the flat class, and encounter much of the same thing - either I pin exactly where I deserve given how the horse went, despite having both legs on one side, or I don’t get used because they don’t know what to do with me. I do try to talk to the steward ahead of time to make sure the judge knows I’ll show up that way and that it is legal, but the message isn’t always passed along!
[h=3]Where tack is concerned, even if legal, what do you not want to see?[/h] • Leather stoppers on reins for a running martingale
• Converter attachment on the noseband
• Buckles on the bridle facing out
• Loose nosebands
• Reins too long – especially on ponies, as they can get caught
• Long, flapping stirrup leathers
• Too much sheepskin on the girth
• Running martingales in the hunter ring
• Running martingales hooked up as a standing martingale
• Gag snaffle bits
[QUOTE=DarkBayUnicorn;8999657]
Am I the only one who simply cannot fathom a double bridle as “conventional” on a show hunter (and by show, I mean C,B,A, A/A leapers) in North America?
I’m working toward my card, and I would like to say that I would have to see superbly superlative jumping style from the horse in a double in order for it to get a call over anything in a snaffle.
If your horse doesn’t touch its knees to its ears in that double bridle. Sorry. Can’t pin it.[/QUOTE]
I can see the perception of the horse as more difficult, but to automatically drop it below anything in a snaffle is just ignorance. Pin the round where it would otherwise belong. Use it as a factor if you need to pin two similar rounds. The rules say it’s conventional, even if you can’t fathom it.
[QUOTE=findeight;9000555]
Oh, same judge both days for both disciplines, lucky you…
Are there any clinic coming up in your area in any discipline you can audit? Meet some new people, learn something for your toolbox?[/QUOTE]
Yep, same judge for both disciplines. She also judged the over fences stuff that the 4-Hers did in the morning on English day. It’s actually super common around here to use one judge for both English and Western in a multi-day or multi-discipline show. Saves the clubs money and headache trying to find two different judges. Some are great (there’s one who judges the majority of the local Arab club shows, which are english and western, and she’s knowledgeable and fair, and has been known to actually approach a rider in the lineup and ask questions. The only person I’ve ever known to disagree with/dislike her is a local “trainer” who gets told to get out of the ring and oftentimes off the show grounds, for being abusive to the horses and his students), but a lot, like the one at the show I went to, are not.
Just missed a Stephen Clarke clinic, but I’ve sent a message to my friend down at the tack shop to see if she knows of anything coming up. Anything would be fun, seeing as I dabble in pretty much everything I can. As long as anxiety behaves, I’m sure I could meet someone just about anywhere. Just…anxiety… haha
Small Change - yep, fully prepared to not pin, or pin poorly. Just not wanting to be DQ’d for illegal tack. I can see you having issues being aside while the rest of the class is astride, simply because you don’t see sidesaddle riders outside of sidesaddle classes much, but I think it’s really really cool that you do it anyways!! It’s such a neat way of riding. I really like watching it (though I’ve never seen it first-hand, only in videos)
same judge, two day show. One day English, one day western.
OK, if this was a weekend show in BC with one day english and one day western, then it was not an EC rated show…and I am assuming the judge was not an EC judge? All bets are off when going to an open show with an uncarded judge.
[QUOTE=Daventry;9000714]
OK, if this was a weekend show in BC with one day english and one day western, then it was not an EC rated show…and I am assuming the judge was not an EC judge? All bets are off when going to an open show with an uncarded judge. ;)[/QUOTE]
If I could remember her name for the life of me, I’d check. But she SAID she’s EC carded, as well as AQHA carded. Show wouldn’t have been sanctioned, no. Rebecca/Becky something-or-other. Ugh, this is going to drive me mental til I find where the heck i had it written down.
But even Jodie Moore, who isn’t EC carded, but is PtHA, ABRA, and HCBC is at least familiar with, and enforces, the EC rules when she’s judging her multi-day, multi-discipline shows. Maybe she’s just a unicorn, I’m not sure. 2016 was my first year back in the non-schooling ring in about a decade. Haha!
I guess the key is…carded in what?
…and the other problem is, it is easy to enforce the rules, but tough to make a decision when you are not familiar with the piece of tack in front of you. I am carded in quite a few divisions and disciplines, and to be honest, double bridles are not discussed.
Grrr, I hate that the BB won’t let you edit your posts anymore. What I meant to say was…double bridles are not discussed at any of the EC or USEF clinics that I attend, and that is for a variety of breeds and disciplines. Unfortunately, some people just have little to no experience with them.
[B]Where tack is concerned, even if legal, what do you not want to see?
• Leather stoppers on reins for a running martingale
• Converter attachment on the noseband
• Buckles on the bridle facing out
• Loose nosebands
• Reins too long – especially on ponies, as they can get caught
• [/B]Long,[B] flapping stirrup leathers
• Too much sheepskin on the girth
• Running martingales in the hunter ring
[/B]I’m on board with these things. [B]
• Running martingales hooked up as a standing martingale
• Gag snaffle bits
[/B][B]But these? Is a running martingale hooked up as a standing actually legal? And how can a gag be a snaffle? They are two different categories of bits. Does he just mean someone using a gag with reins only on the ring that mouthpiece is attached too? Or perhaps he’s referring to something like a Beval gag? But that isn’t really a snaffle…
(sorry for the bold: BB is not letting me quote, change formatting, etc…)
[/B]
