draft horse/dressage

[QUOTE=Equibrit;3143668]
The Percheron Horse originated in the area known as “Le Perche” in the north west of France. Here in 732 A.D. Arabian Horses abandoned by Moors after their defeat in the Battle of Tours were crossed with the massive Flemish stock and from this cross came the Percheron type which has endured for twelve centuries.
During the Crusades, further infusion of Arab blood was made; Arab sires procured in the Holy Land were bred to the Percheron. In the early 1800’s the French Government’s Stud at La Pin introduced further Arab blood into the Percheron breed by covering selected mares with two outstanding Arab sires. Now all contemporary Percheron’s share this common heritage descending from the foundation stock that originated in Le Perche.
The Percheron Horse Society of France was founded in 1883, to safeguard the breeding of pure stock and from this small district of Le Perche. Pure-bred breeding stock has been exported all over the world with each nation except U.S.S.R., having an official Breed Association to ensure the preservation of the pure-bred Percheron, and so the Percheron Horse remains genetically pure with registered animals.[/QUOTE]

Prior to 1883, the Government stud at Haras du Pin kept all the stud records. All breedings in Le Perche had to be approved and government studs were used. Records were kept back at least as far back as 1803. The Percheron Horse Society of France was established in 1883, but this is not the start of the breed. By no means at all. Prior to that, the Gov controlled it all. And prior to that? Remember that prior to the revolution (1799), the King was in charge and that all ended (and by some accounts a recalibration of the gov stud records occurred at that time). Were these earlier records (prior to 1803) recorded? I don’t know. But the Perche Breed records were kept by the Gov up until 1883 and then turned over to the Society. Although, still today, the Gov has a big hand in the breedings and the breed in France (including re-writing the standard to include meat animals after WW11).

It has been well established the blood that was infused into the breed in the 1820s were not Arabs but a “barb” and a saddle horse. There was no Arab blood infused in the 1820s. There have been many, many other horses infused into the French lines but none have provided the controversy that the two “Arab” horses had. It started with the MC Weld book of 1886, which he wrongly interpreted the Gov. stud writings and the myth has been carried on since then. The 1917 Sanders book spends pages and pages on how false the Weld claims were and there are copies of the government stud book pages dating 1813 and 1819 (see pages 61 & 62) to support their counter claims in the 1917 book.

These were the supposed “Arab” horses and here is their descriptions (FROM THE GOV STUD BOOKS OF THE EARLY 1800s):

(from the Gov stud books of 1813). “Gallipoly, Turk; light speckled gray; height 1 meter, 50 cm: classification, saddle horse: sire, a Turk; dam, a Turk; born 1803; entered haras Nov 23, 1812. By whom bought: sent by the Minister. Observations: good blood horse.”

“No. 20. Godophin; born 1802; height 1 meter, 54 cm. (about 15.1 hands); from the stable of Count de Maulke, Mecklenburg-Strelitz. Observations: good horse, but marked at the croup M.; inferior to the preceding horse in the list (also a Mecklenburg-Strelitz horse). Sire: Mock Doctor, English blood horse; Dam: Unknown English mare. When entered: 12 July 1807. Description: Saddle horse.”

I did find that interesting, although another book I read basically said the point is moot because Arab blood is a part of the Percheron, although the particular story of the two horses is untrue (or probably untrue).

But anyway, the discussion has prompted me to read quite a few things I mightn’t have read otherwise!

Sorry you had a bad experience, but what do you suggest? For many people, owning a WB would be like banging their head against a wall. Honestly, I would feel like I was wasting my time. I would know that I am depriving myself of something better

You are TOTALLY missing the point here. TOTALLY. Just try and open your mind to what is being said instead of taking everything as an insult to your breed. Nobody is trying to convince someone that they should own a warmblood, but we are addressing the original question.

What the poster was saying is that if you try and do something your horse is not built for…the horse will struggle and you will get frustrated. If I wanted to win a heavy pull contest with my hanoverian…I am probably setting myself up for some serious head banging. If I want to win a cutting competition with my friesian…same thing. FACT is that they are not built for this and they will struggle. This is a fact…most people can figure this out without having to go out and do it. If you try to do FEI level dressage CORRECTLY with a horse not built for it, you WILL be frustrated and you WILL harm your horse at some piont wether it be mental or physical. Dont beleive us…go ask your nearest equine vet…100 bucks she/he will agree.

You just dont get it. If I went on to the racing forum and asked people if I could win a mile race with my 3 yr old hanoverian…what do you think they would say? And why do you think they would say this? Because they hate hanoverians…because they want to attack my breed? NOOOOO! HELLOO…because Hanoverians are not built to do this and YES, it would be a waste of time. And I sure as hell would not be insulted if I asked a question like that and it was answered realistically (even if it wasn’t what I wanted to hear or it bursted my little lala land dream bubble).

[QUOTE=Fast Alice;3126714]

There’s always someone in the barn who wants to show everyone and make it to grand prix with their twh/hackney/paso fino cross. But, you have to wonder if it’s really fair to the horse to perform at a task that they really weren’t bred to do.[/QUOTE]

The same could be said about a Thoroughbred…

Let’s face it: anyone asking about draft horse suitability for dressage will not be winning at the FEI level on ANY horse. In this lifetime at least. But to say that correct dressage training WILL cause physical and mental harm to a draft horse is flat out wrong. So far it is just scare tactics, and conveniently ignoring the counterexamples. Meanwhile WBs are not even known for soundness, so how do you reconcile that with your argument that they are built for it? One could say that riding ANYTHING other than a classical Baroque horse is bucking the trend. But if everyone is happy, what is the problem?

If drafts really are so unsuited to dressage, what do you care? Worst case scenario is that you lose to one, right? :smiley:

You just dont get it. If I went on to the racing forum and asked people if I could win a mile race with my 3 yr old hanoverian…what do you think they would say? And why do you think they would say this? Because they hate hanoverians…because they want to attack my breed? NOOOOO! HELLOO…because Hanoverians are not built to do this and YES, it would be a waste of time. And I sure as hell would not be insulted if I asked a question like that and it was answered realistically (even if it wasn’t what I wanted to hear or it bursted my little lala land dream bubble).

I was telling a friend about this thread. She laughed “Why don’t you want to let them have their fantasies, dream crusher?” It’s simple logic to me, but apparently not to everyone.

Let’s face it: anyone asking about draft horse suitability for dressage will not be winning at the FEI level on ANY horse. In this lifetime at least.

You don’t know that. It could have been a teenager, who may go on to a big dressage career. You can’t make that assumption from one question.

But to say that correct dressage training WILL cause physical and mental harm to a draft horse is flat out wrong.

Upper level dressage is hard on ANY horse. But it would be EXCEPTIONALLY hard on a draft type.

[QUOTE=FancyFree;3144240]
I don’t see where anyone is trying to do that. The OP’s question was can Shires do upper levels? Generally, no. I’m sure there is the exception out there. There’s an exception for almost everything. That’s all anyone has been saying. … [/QUOTE]

I have to disagree with this… There have been many posts on this thread alone that have said that if you attempt dressage on a draft or cross you will break them down. I don’t disagree that most drafts and draft crosses will never do upper level, but then neither will most warmbloods. I also believe that a carefully selected draft cross can make a very nice regionally competitive dressage mount.

I have a question though… I know that most WB purists believe a draft cross is always a draft cross no matter how many generations back the full draft was. If I have a 1/4 clyde, 1/4 dutch, 1/2 TB gelding, is this a draft cross? How about a WB cross? Or even TB cross? When talking about draft crosses in this thread it has never been established how much draft we are talking about other than the OP’s full Shire. Another example - I could purchase a registered warmblood of a number of studbooks and have the resulting horse be 3/4 TB. I personally know of a stallion that is approved and branded BWP that is actually Holsteiner. When he is bred to an BWP approved TB mare - you actually have a 1/2 holsteiner, 1/2 TB BWP foal.

I think that most posters have done a good job of making the OP understand what to generally expect from a Shire, particularly since we have seen no pictures or video of the horse that she is looking at. But what I think upsets the non-traditional people most is that most (not all) of them truly understand that their competitive careers will be limited by their breed choice. I rarely hear the girl who rides the perchie at the shows series that I go to complain about her scores. In fact I’ve listened to her read through her tests and totally agree with her scores, good or bad. She doesn’t need to also be treated like a second class citizen by the rail birds at shows.

Wow, well said. :slight_smile:

I have to disagree with this… There have been many posts on this thread alone that have said that if you attempt dressage on a draft or cross you will break them down. I don’t disagree that most drafts and draft crosses will never do upper level, but then neither will most warmbloods. I also believe that a carefully selected draft cross can make a very nice regionally competitive dressage mount.

My opinion is that a draft cross would be adequate at the lower levels, but would encounter enormous difficulties as it progressed. You’re right that most warmbloods will not do upper level, but MORE warmbloods than drafts will do upper level dressage. More by a staggering amount. That’s saying something. What? That WBs are the common horse found in upper level dressage because they are the best suited to the job. Drafts and draft crosses are not. But, as I’ve said before, there are exceptions to everything.

Donella, it’s a completely different situation, and I’ll tell you why. There are draft crosses, drafts, and off breeds succeeding in upper level dressage. If there were Hanoverians winning races, would you still feel that the TB owners were justified in looking down their noses at you?

NOBODY is saying that draft crosses are as likely to be upper level winners as a good WB, or that a Shire should be competitive against a top KWPN. What people are saying is that SOME drafts and draft crosses can do the work. And since dressage is so much about the rider and the trainer, sometimes they can be competitive.

Most people run into the wall way before they reach either their own or their horse’s physical limits. Time constraints, financial constraints, and just plain patience and motivation derail most dressage training programs well before the upper levels. Dedicated people who are devoted to an off-breed, though, who choose carefully and put in the time and effort sometimes DO succeed.

I don’t see any purpose in beating people over the head with limitations. If someone has a dream, let them follow it. If the dream doesn’t happen with one horse, they can try again on another. Sneering and gloating just makes people look bitter and unkind.

maybe there aren’t more because people keep saying that they can’t do it.

and maybe there aren’t any in the upper levels because people are so down on them that the riders just give up.

Just let people ride what they want to ride and have fun with what they are riding.

I just don’t understand why some wb people push so hard to get people not to ride draft crosses. I thought the whole purpose of dressage is to get the best out of your horse in a natural and relaxed fashion and do movements that they can do naturally anyway. I know this is oversimplified but really, I think that some protest too much and really have to wonder why.

And you think I am harming my horse - you just come and see how much fun he is having - you will not find a happier horse out there - he knows when we are going riding and I can call him in from the field to ride. He gets mad when I ride someone else and he has the greatest attitude.

You can see when he doesn’t understand something new and when it clicks and he gets it - he is so proud.

People have been using drafts in dressage for how many years? Ten years at most for a few animals (like Cottonwood Flame), and maybe a few, VERY few (count them on one hand) having been using them for fifteen years. How could one actually look at the numbers and make any comparison as to whether they are competitive. Of course, Percherons are one of the horses of choice for vaulting and circus work.

Maybe we should all address the issues of whether or how competitive they are (as a breed) and whether they break down in maybe another ten years time? Right now, I don’t know if the data is there.

Shucks, draft horse shows only started riding classes at the most, ten years ago and most still don’t allow W/T/C because the hitch guys HATE drafts being ridden and since, they don’t like to train, they don’t like a horse that canters. All this BS about drafts can’t be ridden started with the hitch drivers and their insistance that if a hitch horse learns to canter (not that they can’t canter), it will ruin them as driving horse because they might break. As they don’t like to do much training on the hitch animals, they don’t want them to learn how to canter. Many seriously believe that you get more “action” out of a horse if you see the whites in their eyes when they are careening around the ring with a cart or hitch wagon -but darn it, they better not break! They believe that if you don’t want a canter, you just don’t ever let them canter and that is teaching!

Cielo Azure - your post made me laugh - made me think of when I got my gelding.

He is a clyde hackney - what they call a commercial horse - bred to pull coaches - bred by one of the best breeders in North America of this type of horse.

He was trained to drive and was on a prize winning team - but he never pulled - he just looked pretty - so for them it was like - okay lets throw him out to be a riding horse. When I told the breeder what the horse was going to do he just laughed at me. When I bought three more from him he still kind of wondered.

Funny thing is - I have had my mares that I bought from him approved as canadian sport horse foundation and had one colt - by a swedish warmblood in the ring at the Royal Winter Fair - The breeder was the ring steward - he was shocked to see the colt in the ring as a Canadian Sport Horse.

There is a very famous old Stallion - from the old CSHA (when it used to be the Canadian Hunter Society) that was the premier stallion of his time - he was actually a commercial as well and people still talk about this great old stallion - but I bet most of them don’t know he was part clyde - I actually had some babies from him.

Sometimes I have seen sport horse breeders promote their babies as being his offspring and I have to chuckle - they are selling draft crosses and probably don’t even know it.

I actually had my fair share of experience, of drafts crosses breaking down at a youngish age. I am talking about 16 year olds, looking like a 26. Most of them, ringbone and tie up. Therefore I would please ask people to scrutinize the build of a draft cross when they buy one, and don’t think of them as dressage machines. If you happen to have one that is a dressage machine, congratulations.

Having said that, I had my fair share of any breed breaking down. I know even more quarter horses breaking down. I know relatively fewer TB breaking down. WB… it’s hard to say, I believe it is a breed suitable for dressage. The injuries I know of, they could be 100% preventable if the rider has not pushed them so hard. For some reason, people thought if they have a WB, they ride them hard everyday, campaign them like crazy and put them in a stall for the rest of the time.

I also agree drafts are not originally bred to canter. Future breeding should focus on improving the canter. If you are buying a draft cross, buy the canter.

The question is can draft crosses do upper levels… in GENERAL, no. Don’t think of them that way. If you happen to have a gem, great! But it’s a serendipity, not a norm. The market is just maturing and the breeding program has a long way to go.

Just a comment about the canter - they may not come with the uphill canter - but they definitely can be taught it.

My gelding did not come with a light canter but has developed a lovely canter - he is now 8 and while all our draft crosses do take a bit to develop the canter, it is very very possible. Important to keep the shoulders straight in the canter development.

Generally, draft crosses CAN come with tons of issues because they can be so heterogeneous in their characteristics. Below is the worst of the worst that is seen again and again (especially TB draft crosses).

BIG BODY with lots of muscle on little feet that are eggshell quality and fthin boned, woobly hocks. This is a set-up for breaking down. Then top this conformationally challenged animal with a TB temperment and what fun!

Of course, you can get a nice, moderate WB typy animal but it is not a given.

Another one that you see that is conformationally sound but fugly. BIG head, light body, short stump legs and a platter foot.

The possibilities are endless but many, many have more soundness issues than either of the parent breeds.

Yes well the golden rule of breeding : “always breed type to type” is fundamentally missing in the breeding of draft crosses so you often end up with an amalgamation of parts.

Again, I have one. She is a cool CDE horse…and does great at it (don’t ask about the canter ok lol). I have also trained three of them. One was BEAUTIFUL …a perch tb…I don’t know how that worked out, but it did and he was sure amazing to look at. I could have sold 100 of him. But from what I have seen, for every good part of two totally different breeds to come together like that, this doesn’t happen in most cases. When you do not adhere to the golden rule of breeding the odds are very much against you.

well that is not always true - the breeder of our crosses has been 100-200 of the same type cross on their farm at various ages - I remember visiting him and seeing about 30 that looked identical - and that is his thing - because they need to be teams - they are all beautifully put together - I think you would really be hard pressed to call our crosses anything but beautiful so I have to disagree with you.

Speak from what you breed and know not what you think - since you don’t breed crosses and may not have researched it to a great extent - whereas our horses originally come from a breeder that has been producing champion crosses for 50 years - mind you they haven’t been for dressage, but they are becoming a very popular alternative in the circles I see.

MMmm this is pretty common knowledge in genetics and breeding. It kind of goes with the idea of “breeding true”. If you breed two animals that have very different parts you end up getting an amalgamation of different parts…usually, because you get something from mom and something from dad. Most traits are not blended.

They have done this is the Hanoverian breeding program with tbs and before it was even started they knew not to expect much from the F1 generation. It was a long term project. And we are talking about two pretty similiar types…not nearly the differences in type that exists between draft and tb.

Sometimes it definately works out…most of the times it doesnt because of the genetic laws that govern it.

ps…I do love the clyde hackney crosses. I saw a pair at a CDE I was at with my mom. They looked amazing and did quite well…

“Grade horses” can be some of the best conformed horses around. The cavalry dropped throroughbred stallions off all over the country so that local ranchers and farmers could breed them to their homegrown mares, a varied bunch at best. Everything from morgans to light drafts, mustangs, early quarter horses (NOT “butt high”), you name it. The outcome, most often was a polo pony type, which is exactly what the cavalry wanted.

When breeding draft to thoroughbred, the “breed type to type” phrase means conformation to conformation. In other words breed a big boned thoroughbred with big hooves and thick hoof walls to a light draft that is built for cantering and has a good sloped shoulder, etc… That way if all of the recessive genes happen to link up, they are somewhat in unison as to end product.

Hopefully you can cull for recessives and match up the dominants that you want.