draft horse/dressage

[hundredacres]

[QUOTE=Donella;3142124]
I find it almost funny how stating an opinion and using logic to support that opinion WHEN ASKED FOR IT is turned into “attacking”.

I ride an off breed for the hundred millionth time. But that doesn’t mean I am clued out as to what constitutes functional/ideal conformation in regards to upper level sport horses. She asked for the opinion…we gave it. Nobody is attacking anyone…we are simply having a discussion about form and it’s relation to function…at least that is what I was doing.[/QUOTE]

I’m so with you Donella! I think it’s a good question, and has some contructive answers.

I should state that I too, ride an “odd” breed…a STB (we are at training level). I never, ever feel attacked when someone asks about her. And they always do. I often get that polite pause after i mention her breed…lol. I don’t care. But I’m pretty practical and a realist, which is good since she wasn’t started under saddle until she was 12.

[Ambrey]

@BaroquePony;3145876

When breeding draft to thoroughbred, the “breed type to type” phrase means conformation to conformation. In other words breed a big boned thoroughbred with big hooves and thick hoof walls to a light draft that is built for cantering and has a good sloped shoulder, etc… That way if all of the recessive genes happen to link up, they are somewhat in unison as to end product.

Hopefully you can cull for recessives and match up the dominants that you want.

Exactly. Breeding good draft crosses isn’t a slam dunk, but it’s not a shot in the dark either.

One thing to think about, the european warmbloods maintain their quality by ruthless culling. You don’t see many of the “oops” results, as they end up on a frenchman’s dinner plate. The US just doesn’t do that. So, you see the “oops” results of the effort to create an American sporthorse starving in a field.

I’m told my horse was well bred, but I know nothing about his breeders or his lineage. I certainly know Perch x QH isn’t a very common mix for a sporthorse, and it’s quite possible there’s a reason for that. I certainly can’t say that my horse is the result of years of breeding, the culmination of a lifelong passion for enormously wide gray horses. What I do know is that there are those out there who ARE doing the draft x breeding thing, and doing it well, so clearly the outcome isn’t decided entirely by luck.

[BaroquePony]

Quoted from Ambrey:
“One thing to think about, the european warmbloods maintain their quality by ruthless culling. You don’t see many of the “oops” results, as they end up on a frenchman’s dinner plate. The US just doesn’t do that. So, you see the “oops” results of the effort to create an American sporthorse starving in a field.”

I had written a note that it was unfortunate that the US had outlawed the slaughter of horses, but I thought I should delete it, so I did delete it.

Yes, I am a coward that doesn’t want to get flamed.

Those “Thorcherons” that I saw in the 60s were bred and raised somewhere between Kentucky and Massachusetts (!). I wish I could remember everything, but I can’t. He bred damned good horses. I do remember that.

Breeding is a science, an art and a wild card. But two out of three will give you more good horses than you think.

A breeder can have just as much trouble with line-breeding and back-breeding as cross-breeding and AI just exponentially increases the disasters.

[Donella]

One thing to think about, the european warmbloods maintain their quality by ruthless culling. You don’t see many of the “oops” results, as they end up on a frenchman’s dinner plate. The US just doesn’t do that. So, you see the “oops” results of the effort to create an American sporthorse starving in a field.

Oh please. They maintain type and quality because they have breeding down to an exact science. Do you know how many articles related to genetics that are published every month in the Verband newsletter? They have breeding indexes, MPT, SPT results…heritability percentages…all ranked by the FN and published in huge books full of information on approved stallions. Stallions must pass rigorous testing to be allowed to breed. They have developed specific programs for specific athlete developement (jumper breeding program). Believe me…they aren’t just throwing two horses together and crossing their fingers.

And on top of this…they maintain high quality with inspections and strict standards. They have predicates that they award to mares that fit a certain type, and they demote breeding subpar mares by not allowing acceptance into the main mare book. Performance tests to evaluate the breeding prospects…mares and stallions take place.

Attention to detail and a very high standard are what allows for successful breeding…not sending a bunch of horses to the slaughter plant. I will not speak for every wb association but in Hanover, they “get” genetics and that is why they have been number one with the WFSHB for decades. (and the other wb registries that are also very successful are also the most selective…Holstein, Kwpn ect)

I would say there is alot more slaughter culling going on with the draft cross/grade horse breeders than there is with euro wbs. I also live in draft cross /pmu country…and beleive you me, the success rate of an attractive cross is more around the 1 in 10. And I look, because I love to buy these as resale projects any time I can find a cute one.

[BaroquePony]

It is not good science to make a “linear” comparison of the state breeding and testing programs in Europe to what goes on in North America, or at least in the United States.

I have seen a lot of weird looking warmbloods, Dutch and Swedish, that looked very drafty. Since there is an open book registry to thoroughbreds and a couple of others, I have noticed the wbs beginning to look more and more like thoroughbreds (which I like).

All those horses that don’t make it through the rigorous testing go somewhere.

[canticle]

Sorry, I got to agree with Ambrey on this one. European stallions are known for covering massive numbers of mares. Yes of course some of the offspring rise to the top, as with any breeding program. But what do you think happens to those who don’t? Can you say dinner? :no:

The inspection and testing system is great if you like that sort of thing, but it is no guarantee of quality. It adds substantially to the cost of the horses and it is just way too political for me. A BNT was complaining to me the other day about American Hanoverians (B-line in particular) and all of the issues they have. But everyone is afraid to call it like it is. Sorry, I’ve seen too many WBs to believe that they are special. You still have to do your homework, to find the horses without soundness or temperament problems, or without genetic abnormalities.

And you can’t even compare quality draft crosses to PMU babies. That is apples and oranges. If you are judging drafts based on what you have seen from PMU farms, no wonder you think so little of them. If I judged all WBs by the crap Bordeaux mare at my barn, well then my view of them would be awfully skewed too!

[Donella]

I am not saying there aren’t crappy warmbloods but what I am saying is that, at least with the breeds I am associated with, strict quality control that DOESNT come from slaughter culling but rather through science and different measures that INCREASE THE CHANCE of breeding quality offspring. No method is surefire…but to say that breeding is a crapshoot so you just hope for the best. No…at least thats not what I beleive.

Type to Type breeds type…if you base your breeding program on an opposite concept you have ALOT more chance involved in an already chancey endevor. Thats all I am saying.

And no I am not basing it all on pmu horses but lets face it, those are where most of them come from. At least in Canada. And again, for the fifth time, I don’t “think little of them”. I own one that I adore and if I were on a budget and wanted to compete in lower level sport stuff I would probably buy a draft cross…some of them are really cool. It’s just alot more hit and miss.

[BaroquePony]

Quoted from Donella:
“…but to say that breeding is a crapshoot so you just hope for the best.”

Who said breeding was a crap shoot? I must have missed that.

What are pmu horses?

[equusaround]

The exceptional draft horse can do GP

At the FEI trainer’s conference with Jan Brink in CA, a rider from Washington was riding a Belgium/AQHA/(something) cross that was heavily draft in its conformation. The horse had a funny musculature and really didn’t look like a dressage horse. However, that horse was soooo well trained and did the entire GP. Of course, it wasn’t going to score competitively and wasn’t going to get >6 on gaits, but it was a really NICE horse and just did it.

I was impressed with its rideability and the training ability of its owner/rider.

[Heinz_57]

I know no one will probably believe this, and it is purely anecdotal anyway. A spanish-german friend of mine that moved here from Spain maybe 6 years ago, also imported her two WB mares (Holsteins, I think). They are older, late teens now, but well bred and let me tell you - one of the mares is 16.2 and heavier built than many draft crosses, built like an old Mack. An all around BIG girl. Very heavy bone, probably 1400lbs easy. The other mare is a little shorter at 15.3, but of the same proportion for her height.

Obviously, they are older and not examples of the ‘new’ trends in WB breeding. But they ARE true, straight from Europe, WB’s. They speak Spanish and German! Are these mares some kind of anomaly, or was this the ‘type’ of WB that was being produced 20 years ago? I’m not saying these mares are or ever were FEI material, just pondering WB breeding trends of yesteryear.

I don’t think ALL draft crosses were made for dressage, but, as with any breed, I think there are those that possess enough of the positive conformation traits to succeed at the mid-levels, and a few that possess exceptional qualities that have FEI potential. And of that very few, maybe one rider/owner who possesses the skill and drive and determination to utilize that potential.

When looking at horses, I looked for conformation, movement, and temperament first. Breed was considerably farther down the list, somewhere around “head size” and “color”.

[FancyFree]

@bearcombs;3146699

I know no one will probably believe this, and it is purely anecdotal anyway. A spanish-german friend of mine that moved here from Spain maybe 6 years ago, also imported her two WB mares (Holsteins, I think). They are older, late teens now, but well bred and let me tell you - one of the mares is 16.2 and heavier built than many draft crosses, built like an old Mack. An all around BIG girl. Very heavy bone, probably 1400lbs easy. The other mare is a little shorter at 15.3, but of the same proportion for her height.

Obviously, they are older and not examples of the ‘new’ trends in WB breeding. But they ARE true, straight from Europe, WB’s. They speak Spanish and German! Are these mares some kind of anomaly, or was this the ‘type’ of WB that was being produced 20 years ago? I’m not saying these mares are or ever were FEI material, just pondering WB breeding trends of yesteryear.

My deceased mare was like that. Not as heavy as you described, but was a pretty big boned girl. My trainer would refer to her as “the German tank” or on heavy days, “the dumptruck”. :lol: The goal in breeding Hanoverians is for a much lighter look today than what my mare was. I bred this mare to a very light boned Hano, a Twinkletoes, and got a nice mix of the two, I think.

I don’t think ALL draft crosses were made for dressage, but, as with any breed, I think there are those that possess enough of the positive conformation traits to succeed at the mid-levels, and a few that possess exceptional qualities that have FEI potential. And of that very few, maybe one rider/owner who possesses the skill and drive and determination to utilize that potential.

When looking at horses, I looked for conformation, movement, and temperament first. Breed was considerably farther down the list, somewhere around “head size” and “color”.

Very true.

[Ambrey]

[quote=bearco![](bs;3146699]

When looking at horses, I looked for conformation, movement, and temperament first. Breed was considerably farther down the list, somewhere around “head size” and “color”.
[/quote]

You’re lucky, I just got done horse shopping for my mother and daughter. Fluffy manes and pretty colors were an imperative. I managed to get lucky :winkgrin:

[IMG]http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/200804.jpg)

[flashykatt]

@bearcombs;3146699

I know no one will probably believe this, and it is purely anecdotal anyway. A spanish-german friend of mine that moved here from Spain maybe 6 years ago, also imported her two WB mares (Holsteins, I think). They are older, late teens now, but well bred and let me tell you - one of the mares is 16.2 and heavier built than many draft crosses, built like an old Mack. An all around BIG girl. Very heavy bone, probably 1400lbs easy. The other mare is a little shorter at 15.3, but of the same proportion for her height.

Obviously, they are older and not examples of the ‘new’ trends in WB breeding. But they ARE true, straight from Europe, WB’s. They speak Spanish and German! Are these mares some kind of anomaly, or was this the ‘type’ of WB that was being produced 20 years ago? I’m not saying these mares are or ever were FEI material, just pondering WB breeding trends of yesteryear.

I have a book about Hanoverians with pictures of the type of horse that was being bred during WWII. They look heavier than today’s drafties, and were bred for pulling cannons! The WWI horses were much lighter, and were apparently heavy riding horses, but boy, WWII was all about pulling power, lol!

Probably a big reason why they imported Traks to improve type !

[rothmpp]

@Donella;3145847

They have done this is the Hanoverian breeding program with tbs and before it was even started they knew not to expect much from the F1 generation. It was a long term project. And we are talking about two pretty similiar types…not nearly the differences in type that exists between draft and tb.

I wish I had video of mine to post… The 1/4 dtw, 1/4 draft, 1/2 tb that I have is obviously an F2 generation. He apparently got the best from both parents. I ride in a #3 County, he wears an 80 blanket, and a full, not warmblood bridle. There are certain characteristics about him that you can certainly see a hint of draft. He can put his nose on your toe while going straight and not fall down (the snake neck described before), though I do think this is somewhat due to the fact that he doesn’t have the unproportionally short neck that you can find on some WBs. His head is not pretty - not as far as fugly, though. And he has big cannon bones and wears a #3 shoe.

When I bought him last summer, I just considered him a fun lower level prospect. This winter I have worked with couple of FEI trainers who both said separately that I should think about the 5YO test for him. Draft crosses with upper level potential are out there, there is just not nearly as many as there are WBs. Since the breeding of draft crosses for sporthorses is in its infancy it is still a work in process.

Canticle - I don’t know why it hadn’t occured to me that quite a few people only think of draft crosses as pmu horses… the resistance to the idea that quality crosses do exist makes more sense now.

Baroque - PMU horses are the offspring of mares that were bred specifically to harvest their urine as part of hormone replacement therapy. There were huge PMU farms - primarily in Canada - that used draft mares and TB stallions (I think that is the way it went…) and then would sell the babies for a song. When the PMU market got smaller since there are many synthetic options for HRT now - the herds were culled and many were sent to slaughter.

[Bravestrom]

And don’t underestimate their jumping abilitly.

Again -check out our draft crosses - www.hotelfun4kids.com/horses.htm

I have an 11 month old colt that cleared a 4’6" fence yesterday and one of my son’s mare’s decided to go into the arena through the top corner of a double dutch door - four by four opening that was four feet high - this is a 16.1hh draft cross mare.

The power in the back end is amazing - just needs the right training to harness it.

[polarbear]

@prodomus;3147236

And don’t underestimate their jumping abilitly.

I can’t help myself, you totally set me up for this:). I have no dog in this fight, but here’s my Clyde/tb gelding (Clyde stallion, tb mare)… He sure can jump…He was a preliminary eventer, going intermediate when I bought him (and yes, he did make the xc time)…

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc161/polarbear_032/?action=view&current=4foot9.jpg

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc161/polarbear_032/?action=view&current=_KIT6742.jpg

He’s limited in his dressage only by me! (Confirmed ammy rider!)

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc161/polarbear_032/?action=view&current=DSC_3552.jpg

He’s got a lovely uphill canter as well…He’s the product of a very good breeding program.

ETA pics are from AEC eventing championships 2005, training level eventing, he was 8th out of 66 horses after dressage.

[FancyFree]

[QUOTE=polarbear;3149039]
I can’t help myself, you totally set me up for this:). I have no dog in this fight, but here’s my Clyde/tb gelding (Clyde stallion, tb mare)… He sure can jump…He was a preliminary eventer, going intermediate when I bought him (and yes, he did make the xc time)…

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc161/polarbear_032/?action=view&current=4foot9.jpg

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc161/polarbear_032/?action=view&current=_KIT6742.jpg

He’s limited in his dressage only by me! (Confirmed ammy rider!)

http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc161/polarbear_032/?action=view&current=DSC_3552.jpg

He’s got a lovely uphill canter as well…He’s the product of a very good breeding program.

ETA pics are from AEC eventing championships 2005, training level eventing, he was 8th out of 66 horses after dressage.[/QUOTE]

Wow, he’s exceptional. Really magnificent looking. Do you still event with him? How big is he? In the picture of him in the dressage court, the rider looked teeny tiny.

Love his name too.

[oldschool]

Dear Polar Bear. Your horse sucks!1 Ha!Ha!! Totally just kidding. He is AWESOME!! And you look like a great rider too!!People who give drafts the shaft are daft!!

[Ambrey]

@oldschool;3149323

People who give drafts the shaft are daft!!

snort

:lol:

[oldschool]

Thank you Ambrey, Though not a fan of alliteration or simple rhymes, I cracked my own self up with that.Humor and wit, or some semblance thereof seems to be sadly missing in these threads more than occasionally.