draft horse/dressage

[Phyxius]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;3152193]
This comment alone tells me a lot. The success of the Warmblood “breeds” is because of the open books. The horses have been carefully selected and rigorously performance tested. This has resulted in a horse that is the right type for the sport disciplines. The conformation to do the job. Form to function and all that.[/QUOTE]

Yup! A mutt. And I have NOT problem with mutts. I have a problem with people thinking that because their mutt has a fancy name and six figure price tag that it’s automatically better than someone elses mutt.

I love mutts, too.

Can you believe that dog mutt people even come up with NAMES for their mutts? Like a cock-a-poo or a swheat-n-poo. Or Labradoodle. But, you can’t breed a lab to a poodle and still call it a poodle right? So, why can you with horses?

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=Phyxius;3152366]
Yup! A mutt. And I have NOT problem with mutts. I have a problem with people thinking that because their mutt has a fancy name and six figure price tag that it’s automatically better than someone elses mutt.

I love mutts, too.

Can you believe that dog mutt people even come up with NAMES for their mutts? Like a cock-a-poo or a swheat-n-poo. Or Labradoodle. But, you can’t breed a lab to a poodle and still call it a poodle right? So, why can you with horses?[/QUOTE]

Now your inexperience is really showing. This “argument” has been hashed out many times but the “reinventors of the wheel” never “get it”.

The Warmbloods have been developed by breeding the correct (and very similar) types to each other, not extremely different types in the hope of getting “something in between”. It isn’t rocket science but it is carefully thought out and planned. Not all Warmbloods are perfect, no one is saying they are. But the odds are better IF the UL are your goal. Thats all we are saying.

As far as cost. A horse capable of getting to the UL or already there isn’t going to be “cheap” no matter the breed.

[slc2]

get out of the wheat field, nodq, you’re runnin’ against the grain. you have to remember that ‘breed prejudice’ is ONLY ok here if it’s against warmbloods!

[FancyFree]

[QUOTE=slc2;3152575]
get out of the wheat field, nodq, you’re runnin’ against the grain. you have to remember that ‘breed prejudice’ is ONLY ok here if it’s against warmbloods! :D[/QUOTE]

Oh that is SO true. I’ve restrained my fingers at some of the sneering and unkind comments about WBs. :lol: It doesn’t really bother me though. As they say, the proof is in the pudding.

[Ambrey]

@slc2;3152575

get out of the wheat field, nodq, you’re runnin’ against the grain. you have to remember that ‘breed prejudice’ is ONLY ok here if it’s against warmbloods!

Having a preference for one breed over another is not prejudice, it’s preference. The breed prejudice and elitism people are talking about is looking down on others because their breed preference isn’t the same as yours.

“I’d rather have a draft cross than a warmblood” is preference.
“People who like draft crosses are idiots” is elitist.

So buy what you want to buy, and let others do the same.

Funny, I don’t see a lot of posts on WB threads saying “OMG, don’t even buy that, get a draft cross instead.” I don’t recall looking at my trainers thinking “sheesh, why would she want to ride THAT?” Luckily my trainers are all nice, and they like my horse, but I see some comments that make me think I’d be very uncomfortable working with some people.

[hundredacres]

“Breed prejudice”…Good. God.

What is this world coming to? Why can’t we all just get along? We all bleed red…there are no problem horses. Hasn’t humanity rose above this behavior yet?

rolls eyes

[Bravestrom]

Draft Cross Declared for Olympics - a PMU

Just saw this other post about a pmu - thought it was relevant to this thread.

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=143415

Who says draft crosses can’t do dressage.

[Ambrey]

@prodomus;3153749

Just saw this other post about a pmu - thought it was relevant to this thread.

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=143415

Who says draft crosses can’t do dressage.

Aw, Prodomus, nobody’s saying draft crosses can’t do dressage- they are just saying OUR draft crosses can’t do dressage

[FancyFree]

[QUOTE=prodomus;3153749]
Just saw this other post about a pmu - thought it was relevant to this thread.

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=143415

Who says draft crosses can’t do dressage.[/QUOTE]

I saw that. He’s a very nice mover. I don’t think anyone has said they can’t do dressage. Most have acknowledged that there are exceptions who do get to the upper levels. This horse is a beautiful example of that. He’s well put together and has an experienced, lovely rider on board, what’s to stop him from successfully advancing?

[Roan]

I don’t have breed prejudice; I like WBs and I ride one occasionally in my lessons. I used to ride a Trak and a Hano, too. Oh, and a OTTB – can’t forget him, he’s a saint. They’re all good horses, but not something I wanted.

It just seems like people think WBs are the must have for dressage. WB, WB, WB! Argh!

“Oh, you’re buying a dressage horse? I know several WBs for sale!”
“Oh, thanks, but I’m not looking for a WB.”
“I thought you said you wanted a dressage horse?”

ARGH!

Eileen

[oldschool]

As the original poster, and someone that has a horse all her life but new to dressage, relatively speaking, I had no idea what passion this thread would evoke. It’s kind of cool that there are so many people like me that are not particularly “married” to a certain breed or type. I just know what touches my heart and for some reason, the second I saw the shire, that was it for me. It’s like men. If we all wanted the same guy, he would be one exhausted dude. I know dressage seems to be life and death to some people, let’s face it, every horse is beautiful {like people} in their way and a draft doing grand prix{which I’m not convinced is impossible} may simply do it with a different style than a wb. Break dancing and ballet appeal to different audiences. It doesn’t mean one style is superior when they are both performed by a true artist. I hope this rant makes sense to at least one other person. If not, I will take my lumps and with a “Please Sir, may I have another?”

[slc2]

if i recall, the nastiest comments on warmbloods came from the people selling lusitanos but they were the same substance as stated here many many times, they’re stupid, clumsy, heavy, can’t piaffe, can’t collect, have to be ridden hard, they are not a traditional dressage horse breed, lipizanners and andalusians are (which is not breed prejudice, because it’s directed at warmbloods), and the biggest one, everyone likes them irrationally because they are a status symbol and a fad, they only win because judges are stupid and don’t really understand what dressage is about. however, andalusians, friesians and lusitanos AREN’T fads, they’re the REAL DRESSAGE BREEDS. But it’s ALSO CHEATING to ride a warmblood, because they are ‘easier’, and the presence of warmbloods at shows makes the show results all unfair, because the judges score them higher, even if a horse of another breed is much better.

i think the one i find the MOST irrational is that warmbloods are not the traditional dressage breeds, and that’s why they’re so bad at it. but that’s not breed prejudice, and we should encourage anyone who wants to compete in dressage on anything other than a warmblood, but if they’re riding a warmblood, that is cheating.

[canticle]

[QUOTE=slc2;3154374]
if i recall, the nastiest comments on warmbloods came from the people selling lusitanos but they were the same substance as stated here many many times, they’re stupid, clumsy, heavy, can’t piaffe, can’t collect, have to be ridden hard, they are not a traditional dressage horse breed, lipizanners and andalusians are (which is not breed prejudice, because it’s directed at warmbloods), and the biggest one, everyone likes them irrationally because they are a status symbol and a fad, they only win because judges are stupid and don’t really understand what dressage is about. however, andalusians, friesians and lusitanos AREN’T fads, they’re the REAL DRESSAGE BREEDS. But it’s ALSO CHEATING to ride a warmblood, because they are ‘easier’, and the presence of warmbloods at shows makes the show results all unfair, because the judges score them higher, even if a horse of another breed is much better.

i think the one i find the MOST irrational is that warmbloods are not the traditional dressage breeds, and that’s why they’re so bad at it. but that’s not breed prejudice, and we should encourage anyone who wants to compete in dressage on anything other than a warmblood, but if they’re riding a warmblood, that is cheating.[/QUOTE]
Which Lusitano breeder said that? I suspect that you are just making things up, as usual. The only statement which is remotely close to being true is that WBs are not traditional dressage horses. But there is nothing wrong with that! Dressage is for all horses, traditional or not! WBs are a success story of how horses can benefit from dressage even though they were introduced to it only recently.

I don’t think it is irrational to like WBs, or any breed of horse. But I do think it is irrational to have contempt for people who do not share your feelings. That is when your preference has turned into fanaticism. :no:

[Ambrey]

@canticle;3154459

I don’t think it is irrational to like WBs, or any breed of horse. But I do think it is irrational to have contempt for people who do not share your feelings. That is when your preference has turned into fanaticism. :no:

Well, call me crazy, but I can’t figure why anyone would have contempt for someone else for just doing their own thing, if what they are doing isn’t hurting anyone.

[MyReality]

Every breed is bred to do a certain job. WB’s are bred to do dressage and jumping. Therefore they are the breed of choice for dressage and jumping. I still have problem imagining them in eventing, but I am told I should change my mind.

Lusitanos are bred to do dressage (and bull fight). Spanish are bred to do dressage. Therefore they are also the breed of choice for dressage, but not jumping.

I have no problem some breeds are proven better in a job than others. Why shouldn’t they? You need to recognize the work these breeders have been doing. (People might recall I have a certain certain real prejudice against AQHA that get me into trouble. But boy I cry for those funny looking AQHA registered QH you see in auctions and sold for not even 800 a piece!) Is there some snobbery involved? Of course. But it doesn’t change my opinion about what horse is suitable for me.

Specialization naturally requires more skill to operate… and naturally a higher price tag. This is true for all commodities in the world, from cars to tv to cell phone. Breeder, horse seller and buyer alike, beware of what kind of market you are in. You need to reconcile that space you should be in, and be perfectly happy about it. If you are a breed specific kind of person, and want a little dressage machine, why on earth do you want to think outside of the breeds of choice, unless there are specific lines of other breeds that are proven to go all the way to the top. For the rest of us, we look for a decent looking, good size, uncomplicated hybrid, most cross breed will fit the bill, including a draft cross, and there is certainly lots of space there for the breeders there.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=flashykatt;3146856]
I have a book about Hanoverians with pictures of the type of horse that was being bred during WWII. They look heavier than today’s drafties, and were bred for pulling cannons! [/QUOTE] They were and are a coaching breed and as such as agile and with good knee action and gaits. They’re also used as military horses and in teams of 8 or 12 ridden postillion with a gun.

Don’t imagine a great heavy medieval cannon… not that at all

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=polarbear;3149039]
I can’t help myself, you totally set me up for this:). I have no dog in this fight, but here’s my Clyde/tb gelding (Clyde stallion, tb mare)… He sure can jump…He was a preliminary eventer, going intermediate when I bought him (and yes, he did make the xc time)…
[/QUOTE] That’s hardly surprising. It was this cross as a 2nd cross that was used as part of the British Hunter Improvement Programme about 150 years ago and its provided some very high-class competition horses.

The pure bred Clydesdale moves with great energy with feet well lifted from the ground and to give the appearance of strength, power AND activity.

To this day you can still get grant funding from the Hunter Improvement Programme for this cross.

[canticle]

@MyReality;3154555

Every breed is bred to do a certain job. WB’s are bred to do dressage and jumping. Therefore they are the breed of choice for dressage and jumping. I still have problem imagining them in eventing, but I am told I should change my mind.

Lusitanos are bred to do dressage (and bull fight). Spanish are bred to do dressage. Therefore they are also the breed of choice for dressage, but not jumping.

If they are THE breed of choice, why have SO many people chosen to ride SO MANY other breeds? There has to be something else going on, like maybe different preferences?

I have no problem some breeds are proven better in a job than others. Why shouldn’t they? You need to recognize the work these breeders have been doing. (People might recall I have a certain certain real prejudice against AQHA that get me into trouble. But boy I cry for those funny looking AQHA registered QH you see in auctions and sold for not even 800 a piece!) Is there some snobbery involved? Of course. But it doesn’t change my opinion about what horse is suitable for me.

So that’s what this is about? You’re upset because you think that breeders do so much work and people STILL prefer other breeds! Honestly I don’t care how much work breeders do. I care about the end result.

[MyReality]

canticle, of course there is the factor of preference. But what is your preference based on? You like the hair, or it looks like Black Beauty or Flicker kind of preference? Or you prefer them because it is easier to move up the levels, or it has FEI potential kind of preference? Or it is somewhere in between?

Breed of choice means, the breed fulfills a very specific function. It means it has the best chance to excel in that function… it could be just the ability to stand in a certain way and look good.

You make it sound like, just because people breed for a specific function, that others are deprived of their choices, or we are not accepting people have choices. It is too far from the truth. The fact is, many breeders, produce great horses and thrive, because they understand the choices. The definition of ‘great’, is up to the buyers you’re aiming for. If you aim at the ammie market, what is great… you aim at professional market, what is great… and the two are very different. There will always be breeders who specialize in a discipline, or a breed with a specific function, some even to the extreme, and there will always be many more breeders who choose to breed somewhere in the middle.

All breeders who understand their buyers and their market, and produce horses with the right form and function for that business space, should be recognized for their success.

canticle, I think you still have some work to do to understand where you stand.

[Ambrey]

@MyReality;3154754

canticle, of course there is the factor of preference. But what is your preference based on? You like the hair, or it looks like Black Beauty or Flicker kind of preference? Or you prefer them because it is easier to move up the levels, or it has FEI potential kind of preference? Or it is somewhere in between?

Did you read the thread? About temperment and willingness? This whole “because you like the hair” thing really chaps my hide. If someone doesn’t choose a warmblood, it’s because they like HAIR?

And who the heck is Flicker?

How much does it cost to buy a warmblood capable of moving up the levels to FEI and get it there? Sure, I can get a WB for $10k… a weanling. Then I have to board it for 3 years before I can even start it. Then I have to pay someone to start it. Then I have to pay for lessons/training up through the levels. How many adult amateurs are ever going to get there?

So why would I go out and buy a horse for the purpose of getting to FEI? Why not buy a horse for the purpose of riding and enjoying him, then do the best I can? And if I like horses that look a certain way, and I can get what I want from that, what is wrong with that?

A horse isn’t a cordless drill. We have to love it and spend time with it- it’s more like choosing someone to date. Do you choose your dates based on how well they perform or based on how much you’ll enjoy spending time with them?

I’m not saying that WBs aren’t enjoyable- but not everyone wants to date the same man, and not everyone wants to own the same horse. There’s a lot of personal preference there that goes way beyond Black Beauty and hair. There’s chemistry and perception and how the horse makes you feel when you are around him. Maybe to you, your discipline comes first, but for me it is secondary. If I’d bought my horse and he hated dressage, I would have changed disciplines, not horses.