Why do you stop reading after one sentence? I said, “Or it is somewhere in between?”… if you would please read the whole paragraph, it means people sometimes buy a horse for very competitive reason, or people buy a horse for personal reason, but there are many shades in between, and there is a horse for everyone.
I personally am very partial to a dapple gray, and I don’t like tall horses.
[QUOTE=MyReality;3154754]
canticle, of course there is the factor of preference. But what is your preference based on? You like the hair, or it looks like Black Beauty or Flicker kind of preference? Or you prefer them because it is easier to move up the levels, or it has FEI potential kind of preference? Or it is somewhere in between?[/QUOTE]
What are my preferences based on?
Ok, let me try to explain it, and it has nothing to do with hair! 
I like a horse that is between 14.2-15 hands. Temperament is the most important thing to me – I don’t put up with crazy horses, spooking, or bad manners. The horse must also be substantial, with good bone and straight legs. I don’t like winging or paddling. Hooves should be well-formed and dense. I’m not going to shell out an arm and a leg for corrective shoeing, so the horse better be able to go barefoot (with a correct trim of course). The horse will be kept like a horse (turned out, no clipping or blanketing), so he should be ok with that. He should be easy to train and fun to ride. I love to trail ride so the horse should not be neurotic outside of the ring. Finally, I am going to own this horse until he dies (which I hope is never), so I am expecting him to remain rideable until his late 20s, and hopefully live into his 30s.
I don’t care about showing, FEI potential, how much knee action he has, or how long his mane is. Is it starting to make sense now?
Sorry, never mind!
Sorry canticle, I went and edit the post… I didn’t mean irrational, I mean a personal reason, that is not to do with performance.
[QUOTE=MyReality;3154912]
Sorry canticle, I went and edit the post… I didn’t mean irrational, I mean a personal reason, that is not to do with performance.[/QUOTE]
Ok that makes more sense! I deleted my post!
canticle, of course there is the factor of preference. But what is your preference based on? You like the hair, or it looks like Black Beauty or Flicker kind of preference? Or you prefer them because it is easier to move up the levels, or it has FEI potential kind of preference? Or it is somewhere in between?
Breed of choice means, the breed fulfills a very specific function. It means it has the best chance to excel in that function… it could be just the ability to stand in a certain way and look good.
You make excellent points. If you have a specific goal in mind, competitive dressage, of course you want a breed that has the best chance of success. Some people absolutely have breed preference based on aesthetics. They like the look of the Arabian or the look of color horses. Sometimes it simply is aesthetics that attracts a person to a certain breed. Sometimes it’s what the breed excels at. For me WBs, excel at jumping and dressage. These are disciplines that I participate in, so I believe going to have the best chance at success with a WB, IMO.
I have come to broaden my opinion of draft crosses due to some of the examples shown here though. A good, well put together draft cross can be a lovely horse. My only experience with the “breed” has been horses with a short, thick necks unable to take connection. An extra large body with short striding legs. Really a mish-mash of horse parts that don’t flow well. However with careful breeding, I think they can make nice horses. So I have opened my mind to the draft crosses. 
I love to trail ride so the horse should not be neurotic outside of the ring.
I’m with you on that. I expect all my horses to be able to trail ride. I can’t imagine having to put up with one who doesn’t.
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3154575]
That’s hardly surprising. It was this cross as a 2nd cross that was used as part of the British Hunter Improvement Programme about 150 years ago and its provided some very high-class competition horses.
Hey Thomas!
Hmmm, interesting. I see a lot of draft crosses locally, some very nice, some not so…The majority of the better ones are those with clyde IMHO…Were there other draft crosses in this Program, or did they just focus on the clyde?..
Between the years of 1873 and 1882 no fewer than 197,002 horses were imported into England, chiefly for the army, at a relative cost today of £250 million. Consequently, the Government at that time was greatly in favour of encouraging the breeding of horses in this country.
This crisis in the British Equestrian Industry coincided with a decision made at a November meeting in 1884 by the Hackney Horses Society’s Council. It was decided to include a class for thoroughbred stallions suitable for use as hunter sires at their annual show and a ‘Committee of Management’ was formed to administer this new venture. This was followed up a year later at another meeting where a proposal led to the formation of a Society for improving the breed of the hunter type horse. The existing Committee of Management responsible for the Thoroughbred Stallion Classes agreed to form the new Society, and the Hunter’s Improvement Society (H.I.S.) was born.
In 1894, the Ministry of Agriculture and the War Office offered premiums at £150 to 29 Stallions in the scheme. The Army, via their remount officers, continued to play a major part in the Society’s activities and the financial backing came from the same source right up until the outbreak of the Second World War. After the war, backing was continued by the Totalisator Board and then by the Horserace Betting Levy Board. Between 1996 - 1998 financial assistance was reduced and finally withdrawn and the Society has since had to sustain itself by it’s own operations.
In 1981, the Society’s name was extended to “Hunter’s Improvement and National Light Horse Breeding Society”. This was intended to reflect the shift in the demand for horses for sport and leisure. In fact, with the Army now almost completely mechanised, the Society’s emphasis totally changed and breeders became much more selective. Quality was of the up most importance and the market for the ‘Competition Horse’ became very strong. To this aim, the Society started to register Stallions of other types whilst continuing with its established policy of making available the sound, strong, Thoroughbred Stallion.
In 1998 the Society went through its most recent transition and became Sport Horse Breeding of Great Britain. The Society now grades and registers all breeds of horse with the main objective of producing a correct, sound, athletic sport horse with the potential to exceed in Show Jumping, Dressage or Eventing.
[QUOTE=canticle;3154902]
. . .I like a horse that is between 14.2-15 hands. Temperament is the most important thing to me – I don’t put up with crazy horses, spooking, or bad manners. The horse must also be substantial, with good bone and straight legs. I don’t like winging or paddling. Hooves should be well-formed and dense. I’m not going to shell out an arm and a leg for corrective shoeing, so the horse better be able to go barefoot (with a correct trim of course). The horse will be kept like a horse (turned out, no clipping or blanketing), so he should be ok with that. He should be easy to train and fun to ride. I love to trail ride so the horse should not be neurotic outside of the ring. Finally, I am going to own this horse until he dies (which I hope is never), so I am expecting him to remain rideable until his late 20s, and hopefully live into his 30s.
I don’t care about showing, FEI potential, how much knee action he has, or how long his mane is. Is it starting to make sense now?;)[/QUOTE]
Ever looked at Lipizzaners, canticle? Sounds right up your alley and possibly FEI to boot Well, except for the mares. They’re not an easy ride.
Eileen
[QUOTE=polarbear;3155649]
Hey Thomas!
Hmmm, interesting. I see a lot of draft crosses locally, some very nice, some not so…The majority of the better ones are those with clyde IMHO…Were there other draft crosses in this Program, or did they just focus on the clyde?..[/QUOTE]
Thanks Equibrit for that posting which I presume to be fact taken from somewhere. I posted on the basis of my own personal knowledge and memory and it seems I was out by 30 years
In terms of the heavy cold bloods, some shires were to my certain knowledge also used. (though for sure not as numerous or successful as the Clydesdales)
Please note though that in the UK we don’t use the word “Draft/s” to mean the heavy working breeds.
Here a draft horse is merely a horse traditionally used as a harness horse and it could be a heavy harness horse breed OR a light harness horse breed.
Its why there’s always a confusion about the likes of the Irish Draft. The Irish Draft is not and has never been a heavy agricultural working horse. Rather its classified as a light harness horse and more akin to the Welsh Section D.
In a book of mine from 1912 it says about the Irish Draft:
"the Irish Draft is light and fast enough compared to any warm-blood that you may see owned by an English Gentleman who might not wish or be able to own the more desirable thoroughbred. The Irish farmers wanted an animal that could transport their families in fine gigs and carriages and take them hunting. The original Irish horses were ponies with Spanish and Arabian blood and the earliest confirmed history was with the Thoroughbred sires to Irish mares in the last two centuries. The shortage of good horses up to 1879 led to a marked decline in their numbers and to the importing of Clydesdales and Shires from the mainland. But this led to coarser animals and the increase of feather on their legs.
Altogether not desired and so steps were taken in 1907 and registration plans last year for inspections of mares and stallions and to go back to the original and more refined gentleman’s all round sporting horse."
Sorry about that, I guess I’m so used to hearing that derogatory “black beauty” type comment any time you mention having wants other than temperment and ability, I just jumped the gun.
I thought a bit on what I looked for in my horses. I bought both more on gut feel than anything, and visually they are about as different as different can be. I see them as similar, though- they are both aggressively social, people-centered, very loving, and charismatic. They also are both a little different from the “average” horse.
People who know my horses would describe them in similar ways- very sweet, loving, not a mean bone in his body, happy, enjoys being ridden. It sounds a bit contradictory to the history I have with my horse, because he can be spooky and I’ve come off a few times- but it’s true, I’ve seen him pin his ears maybe 3 times in the time I’ve owned him.
And they both draw people to them. We’ve only had Lightning, the new pony, for a few weeks, and when we got him he was skinny and hairy- but already people make positive comments about him when the trainers are riding him, ask about him and comment on how cute he is (he’s much less skinny and hairy now!). I can’t wait until someone asks whether I bought him because he was beautiful, because when we first saw him he was far from it!
Neither was the color I wanted, or even had the look I wanted, lol. My dream pony was a bay roan New Forest or Connemara, and I got a palomino mutt. My dream horse was a lovely bay with chrome, and I got a big ol’ dappled gray monster. But, I really adore both of my horses, and although in hindsight I would have put my big guy in training faster, I still would have bought him if I knew then what I know now.
And, so, draft crosses take their place in my heart And, now, half-welsh mutt ponies will too! Because mine are special
eta: And because showing pics of my horses is my second favorite thing to do after showing pics of my kids, here you go!
Lightning the hairy mutt pony:
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/200804-10.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/200804.jpg
Smokey the dappled gray monster:
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/IMG_0032.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/IMG_0035.jpg
This gives me hope! I have a new Shire/TB cross that I want to do low level Dressage and Eventing with. I am so excited about what is to come!
I don’t wanna get all into this again but I did just buy a new book that is out that deals with selecting a dressage horse and it reminded me of this topic. It is very in depth and written by two equine veterinarians with commentary by Anky herself. Alot of attention is paid to functional conformation, angles ect and there is a whole section devoted to why certain conformation is undesirable in a dressage horse and draft horses are used specifically in many examples. Again, written by two equine vets.
[QUOTE=Donella;3162871]
I don’t wanna get all into this again but I did just buy a new book that is out that deals with selecting a dressage horse and it reminded me of this topic. It is very in depth and written by two equine veterinarians with commentary by Anky herself. Alot of attention is paid to functional conformation, angles ect and there is a whole section devoted to why certain conformation is undesirable in a dressage horse and draft horses are used specifically in many examples. Again, written by two equine vets.[/QUOTE]
What’s the title? I’m interested in checking it out.
It’s funny, because I am reading a book (digs it up… it’s The Education of Horse and Rider, by Froissard and Powell) and it has a check list (not as in depth, it sounds?) but says:
“Stay away from the often clunky “warmblood,” and do not even think about eccentric crossbreeds such as Thoroughbred and Percheron, where the draft dilutes what the bloodhorse pours in.”
I’m not exactly sure what you ARE supposed to get, but from what he says it appears that we’re both screwed
But looking at his checklist, my horse didn’t do too badly for a mutt. It says:
Is he built in a slightly ascending line wiht a clearly defined wither extending well back? Err, nope. A little downhill, mutton withered. Saddle fitting nightmare
Is his back short, broad, and very muscular? Yep, yep, and yep.
Are his loins short, broad, straight, and well muscled? Yep.
Is his croup long, muscular, and slightly sloping? yep
Is his chest deep and wide? yep
Is his neck of medium length, standing out well, with a slant 45° above the horizontal, neither too thick nor too thin? Good slant, stands out well, but is short and thick.
Is his head square, lean, expressive, and well set on? It is a sign of quality, shun the heavy head. Nope, classic perchy head, but is very expressive. Despite his mass, his head is not a draft size (on the small end of an oversize/WB bridle).
Is his shoulder long and sloping? Not the longest in the world, but has a nice slope.
Is his arm long, muscular, and rather straight? yep.
Is his breast muscular and rather wide? yep
Is his forearm long, vertical, and strong, with prominent muscle? yep
Is the direction of the elbow right? If it is glued to the body, the horse will be splay footed. If excessively spread, he will be pigeon toed. Elbows are good, front legs are straight.
Are his cannons short, dense, and lean? yes, very much so.
Are the fetlocks broad and neat? he has great joints.
What about the length and direction of the pasterns? They should be quite, but not exceedingly, long and sloping. Short but sloping.
Are the thighs long, almost vertical, powerfully muscled?
Are the gaskins long, broad, and muscular?
both could be longer.
Are the hocks clean, neat, wide open? Cow hocked, but not too bad.
So he gets, what, a B?
The thing is, I wonder how much temperment, brains, and heart go into this. I have an acquaintance with a lovely WB who is having a heck of a time with submission and him just blowing through the aids. My horse does not have the natural “boing boing” that her horse has, but enjoys a challenge and seems to really love learning new things. For all we’ve talked about the conformation, it doesn’t do a thing for you if your horse’s mind is fried by 20 minutes of working on laterals, or he just decides he doesn’t feel like learning changes.
“selecting the dressage horse” dirk williem rosie
Ambrey, as a side note, the book also has a chapter dedicated to movement and temperment, both of which factor into it significantly. The horse needs all three to become an FEI horse but I personally think if the horse is not ideal (but still decently equipped for the job) temperment will be the deciding factor. Some horses have awesome ridability and trainability and this is huge too…forsure. I think small conformational issues can be somewhat overcome with excellent temperment.
LOL, sitting here on foal watch I really had to laugh.
The Emperor’s new Clothes come to mind. Don’t you know if you tell enough people how wonderful something (quick hind leg, lots of knee) is eventually they will believe it
My shire/tb cross is one of the most naturally balanced horses I have ever ridden, and that includes Good Will Games horses and Internationally shown Grand Prix dressage horses. She has soft, balanced, and incredibly comfortable gaits. She is so well-balanced that getting her to stretch into contact is probably the most difficult part of our training.
I don’t believe she is the lone exception, I feel we are too quick to make broad sweeping generalizations about certain breeds.
[quote=ladyj79;3167729]
She is so well-balanced that getting her to stretch into contact is probably the most difficult part of our training.
[quote]
That really makes sense.
[QUOTE=ladyj79;3167729]
She is so well-balanced that getting her to stretch into contact is probably the most difficult part of our training.[/QUOTE]
Actually, this isn’t a good thing. If a horse won’t stretch into the contact, it indicates that the horse is “behind the aids”. In other words, the horse is holding itself in a posture rather than working through the back.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
