Drastic Behavior Change - Dangerous Levels

[natalien1214]

Have a 16 year old TB I have owned for 10 years. We have competed in the Hunters the last 9 of 10 years. He has always been spirited, but energy was easily contained with 4-5 rides/week. He even was used for lessons and was going to be leased out to a younger girl before I decided to take him to college with me.

Last summer, he started to look a little stiff behind, but with routine hock injections he was back to himself and was Reserve Champion at our show. When we came back, we started noticing slight behavior issues that continued to get worse. Behavior issues started with bucking when getting a longer distance to a fence or me making an amateur mistake, but increased to ground manner changes and spookiness leading to major distraction throughout the entire ride, never any focus if you lost his attnetion. He began to be difficult to lead in/out from his stall to pasture, prancing and even striking when on the lead rope. I had a vet and chiropractor looking at him and finding no issues in soundness/soreness. We tested for lameness, treated for ulcers, continue to do acupuncture and chiropractor, had the saddle checked and more that I can’t even remember.

Frustrated with increasingly poor behavior, I hired another vet from four hours away. He came and immediately diagnosed my TB with EPM. We have treated twice, and while the behavior seemed to improve, it has gotten worse again in the last month (treatment is still going on, no changes). No vets can provide answers.

He has been in training as we categorized as “behavior problems” since vets couldn’t find anything but even training isn’t keeping him from bucking and crazy spooking at NOTHING. Two rides ago he let us a huge buck after 30 minutes of the ride, after a 5 stride line (only 2"6; very small jumps). After a spook/reaction like this it is impossible to bring him back and continue the ride. He is a ticking time bomb. This morning he was great for the ride, but in cooling out leapt in the air and bucked when he was being walked on a long rein. Tonight I went to turn him out and just exiting his stall and walking toward his pasture he began to buck and was impossible to control. We were finally able to get him to his pasture with a rope halter. I never know what horse I am going to deal with. He could be so sweet and quiet one ride, and a disaster the next.

Has anyone experienced any behavior change this drastic!? Everything I have read is not to this level of danger. If there is a thread I just cannot locate, please direct me there! I am willing to try everything or anything. Would hate to keep spending money on vet bills to get us nowhere. Thank you for any input!!!

[HungarianHippo]

I can’t tell from your post what the current level of vet involvement is. Sounds like you ran the gamut of tests and found nothing, so switched to a re-training approach, and don’t have a vet currently looking at him. Am I reading that correctly?

Describe exactly what “tested for lameness” means-- what xrays do you have, what tests were done to rule out physical pain?

[sk_pacer]

Have you checked his eyes?? That may be a place to start in light of what you have already done

[Write_amp_Ride]

I don’t have personal experience with EPM but his behavior doesn’t sound typical of that. Maybe someone who knows more would weigh in. Have you explored magnesium deficiency? Has he become overly sensitive to brushing or touching? My son’s mare improved tremendously with the addition of magnesium to her diet. She was not, however, bucking and acting out of control. That’s so scary, please be careful!

[JB]

Kissing spine or some cervical infringement would be things to look at.

Have there been any injections since last Summer? Once things get to the point of needing injections, it’s not that injections are required going forward, but it’s more of the fact that the arthritis is still progressing and may be painful enough now. That would be cheaper to xray than the spine, most likely, so it another place to look. Do you have rads from pre-injections last Summer? That would be very useful.

[Chall]

I’m not a vet. My tb did this.
Chip in hoof p1. 2 surgeries, removed chip, then scar tissue.
Retired him 3 wks after second surgery.
10 years in field board and he became pasture sound and could gallop around.
I suspect it fused by then.

[beowulf]

I had a TB who did this - I called it “gradually unraveling”. Final diagnostics: Major back problem involving sacroiliac disease, needed SI injection & mesotherapy. Like you, had vets & chiros look at him over the course of several years, in hindsight I realize they failed me and I failed my horse, as he was unsound but not limping. Back then not as much was known about back issues. I suspect now if a vet looked at him, they would have pinpointed his issue quite quickly as I do believe the quality of veterinarians and knowledge has improved tremendously in the last two decades.

Whatever you’re dealing with, it has to be physical - the fact he was stiff behind and then the hock injections, and the gradually worsening behavior - I think that is your biggest culprit there is something brewing behind you are not aware of.

Did you take rads of the hocks, and did you ever do flexions? Suspensory palpitation?

Keep in mind, that “not limping” does not mean “not lame”. There are many soundness issues that don’t involve a leg, so if you are looking for limping, you might be doing a disservice to the horse.

I would suspect back issues - KS, cervical issues, even suspensory involvement. Bucking and bolting, and not settling (AKA getting unglued after a misbehavior) to me are textbook symptoms of an undiagnosed back issue.

[Abbie.S]

What @beowulf said.

The fact that he does this on the ground as well definitely makes me think pain. Horses are rational creatures - if something bothers them under saddle, they will respond under saddle. If it doesn’t bother them on the ground, they won’t respond on the ground. While they are creatures that do constantly adjust to the parameters they are given, they do not look to do things “just because” which is why the behavior argument usually has more holes than Swiss cheese. Horses don’t have “behaviors” - they communicate things just like you and I do, they just do it largely through non-verbal means.

The randomness of his episodes also rings bells for kissing spine, some kind of spinal impingment/facet arthritis, etc. At this point, I personally would cease riding this horse out of fairness to him since he’s demonstrating that whatever is causing his responses is not caused by you sitting on him and I’d be getting together all the imaging, vet records, etc that I have on him and taking him to the nearest major equine hospital (think Tufts, New Bolton, etc) for a better work-up.

[natalien1214]

@HungarianHippo Hi! I am also from Iowa, eastern Iowa! This all started a year after leaving Iowa and moving to Kansas.

I still am in communication with three vets. Absolutely care the most about him being happy and comfortable. Working with a Kansas City vet, Kansas City chiropractor and Saint Louis vet.

Had a stifle injected and chiro/acupuncture by the Kansas City vet + chiropractor just three weeks ago. Also just got off the phone with the Saint Louis vet. I would say vet involvement is still very high. Just frustrated because having them out is getting us no where.

When I say tested for lameness I mean we conducted a flexion test and lameness exam just three weeks ago before injecting the stifle. This is probably the fourth lameness exam in less than a year. We also did x-rays last fall. They came back clean, but off-site technology isn’t as great as taking to a University vet, of course. Vets have not recommended more x-rays since.

The behavior under saddle sounds to me like back pain. It is just bizarre that the behavior issues are not only under saddle. And that the chiropractor finds no soreness.

Thank you for your input. Open to as many thoughts as you are willing to share!

[natalien1214]

@sk_pacer Yes!!! We did have his eyes looked at by a vet of out Saint Louis. He said they looked good. No formal test beyond that. Is there a test that can be run? Thank you!

[natalien1214]

@Write&Ride Have not tried that, though he is not sensitive to brushing. Will look into it! Thank you!!

[natalien1214]

@JB I totally agree. We actually had two horses diagnosed with kissing spine at my barn last fall, the same time the same vet was looking at mine. They did not take rads or diagnose any back pain, and the chiropractor who loos at him monthly finds no back pain!

He gets routine injections almost 2x/year. Stifle and hocks. Just had stifle a few weeks ago. I have also wondered about arthritis. Thank you!!!

[natalien1214]

@Chall Sorry to hear, but glad your horse seems to be feeling better…will investigate his feet more. Thank you!!

[natalien1214]

@beowulf Hi! Thank you so much for sharing your experience.

Hard to imagine (2) vets and (2) chiropractors could miss all that, but absolutely possible. They are all great veterinarians.

I don’t believe they took rads of the hocks or suspensory palpitation. Will bring up both. And yes we have done flexions.

Thank you so much, again. I will push back on the vets to investigate back pain and bring up the other two ideas.

[Katelynfrank]

Sorry to hear that
I think you should go to a vet

[JB]

@Katelynfrank

Sorry to hear that
I think you should go to a vet

Did you read the post?

[natalien1214]

@Abbie.S Thanks so much for your thoughts. I have thought pain the whole time, but each vet has assured me it is not. Kissing spine was one of the first things we looked at. Two other horses at my barn were diagnosed at the same time mine was being looked at, by the same vet. I think I need to take him to a University, since my gut feeling agrees with everyone trying to help here.

[Palm_Beach]

@JB

Did you read the post?

:rolleyes:

[findeight]

Well, maybe they meant go to the clinic so the whole horse can be evaluated. It’s not that current vets missed anything. It’s that they have only looked at specific areas, not the whole horse including more imaging with better machines as can only be done at a clinic. I think it’s time as nothing is working and the horse is getting worse, no sense continuing to waste money on what might be wrong and find out what is.

My vote would be KS or CA as they often worsen as the horse ages putting the horse in real pain. They get to dread being ridden and try to avoid it any way they can, which is mistaken for bad behavior.

[chai]

I agree with Write & Ride. My friend’s pony had EPM and it presented more with hind end weakness/neurological issues rather than acting out/pain reactive behaviors. Have you had him tested for Lyme Disease? It often presents with changes in behavior, joint/body pain and sensitivity and it is showing up all over the country. Kissing spine is also something to be looking for. I wish you all the best as you work through these issues - it’s nice to read that you are really trying to help a horse that has been such a great partner for you.