Drawrein question.

That is very true, but very few dressage trainers, especially the old masters, will say that one then should do absolutely nothing with the front of the horse.

The way to ride a dressage horse involves creating an endless cycle of creating energy, with a great deal of delicacy receiving it, and recycling it, all the while keeping all the major muscle groups swinging and loose and supple. One cannot do dressage with just the reins just as much as one can’t do it with just the seat or just the legs. The rider needs all those, both to create something correct and to fix things.

As the saying goes, ride all the horse with all the aids all the time.

One doesn’t get there by being forceful with the reins, but one also doesn’t get there by doing nothing with the reins. Especially with this problem.

What we have to do is so much more difficult than doing nothing, which is doing just enough.

something DOES have to be done with the front of the horse. The question is just what to do that doesn’t cause other problems, maintains a connection, keeps the horse pushing (and later carrying) with the hind quarters, trusting and reaching for the bit rather than dropping it and going along with shortened neck behind the bit (and the hind quarters and shoulders ALSO ‘shortened’), and becoming thereby what many people perceive as an ‘easy ride’, instead what one has to do keeps him relaxed and loose in his neck while still balanced.

Without something that forces the horse to comply, it’s up to the rider using very simple tools that frankly don’t give him much advantage, and require him to have quite a bit of skill, to get the horse not to ‘drop the bit’ and go with a shortened neck, but constantly maintain a living breathing connection.

If I have a horse that is holding his neck in and going along not really reaching for the bit, I have a much, much harder job than if I have a horse that is pulling like a freight train. It may SEEM a lot more pleasant and comfortable to pat around with the horse not swinging and reaching for the bit, and the gaits may be VERY comfortable and easy to ride.

But the one holding the neck in cannot really ‘deliver’, the circle of the aids is broken.

He can’t really have impulsion - swinging ghis hind legs and back, if his neck is not ‘through’ (muscles loose and swinging and connected with the bit). He can’t be really bending through his body, he can ‘crank’ his neck this and that way but it isn’t coming from a neck that is supple and loose and connected, the neck is held in. It prevents bending and it prevents the horse from really reaching with his shoulders and hind legs and swinging his back.

The solution I don’t think is so complicated, though that doesn’t make it easy. The rider is always making forward, receiving the energy, recycling it, and constantly creating that circle of the aids.

When the horse is going correctly the energy doesn’t just make the hind legs move, it flows from the back end of the horse to the front end, is received, recycled and that makes the connection work.

Everything that you feel in the front half of the horse, whether it be resistance in the mouth, poll, or neck, is simply a barometer reading of how the back end of the horse is working. Tension in the back and lack of proper activity in the hind legs causes blocking in those areas, not the other way around. To advance the horse the cause of the problem is what needs to be fixed, not the symptoms.

Hear, hear. :yes:

But lstevenson, you’re preaching to the choir.

Because I say I believe in using the seat, leg and rein to correct a problem (instead of just legs) doesn’t mean that I disbelieve the principle that what you feel in your hand is a result of what’s going on behind your saddle. I don’t disbelieve it. I have been taught and seen for probably longer than you’
ve been alive, that that is true, but where I disagree with you is that you can fix that by ONLY using your legs more, harder, whatever.

It, like all problems, requires a coordination of leg, seat, hand to correct. No, that does not mean I believe in cranking the neck and head around and making the connection WORSE - but I DON’T believe that dropping the reins and using the legs only does the job either. I don’t believe you can solve ANYTHING by just chucking the reins. I think the key is to learn to coordinate and balance the aids, not to just totally stop using 1/3 of the rider’s aids.

Who said anything about dropping the reins? The contact is a very important part of the circle of aids. But you shouldn’t use it (or draw reins) to make the horse “give” to the hand. That’s front to back riding.

Perhaps there is confusion in defining “giving to the hand”.

When I have my horse working correctly, I expect him (or her) to give to my hand when asked, but it reverberates (sp?) all the way back through the spine (of the horse) to the hindquarters and I am able to collect the energy (in my hand) if I continue to use my seat and legs in defining the action of the hindquarters (as in continuing to go forward). An example would be “riding the horse forward into the halt” or asking the horse to come back from an extended trot to a working trot.

Although I consider that a rather slang description of “having the horse between your hands and legs”, isn’t that in part “giving to the hand”?

In my mind, “giving to the hand” and moving into the contact/connection with relaxation are two different things. They have to learn not to go through the hand or be against it, but to me “giving” to the hand implies a backward motion of the jaw (dropping the contact). Which provides a false sense of lightness. True lightness is a result of the horse increasing his carrying load behind, not a result of the horse “giving” to the bit.

Agreed muchly - I don’t think I’ve ever seen them be correctly used. Case in point - a schoolmate of mine using them to force her mare to quit throwing her head around due to her bouncing hands… hmm.

As for me, dealing with a mare who was backed by a woman who told me it was ‘too easy for her to put her head up’ - and subsequently cranked her nose to her chest forcefully - I’ve found that one of those $12 elastic bungee neck stretchers has done MIRACLES for my horse. There’s no risk of bouncing back off the draw reins and being forced into a fake frame, but when she comes above the bit, she has something that gives right there to remind her that that isn’t where she should be - and she relaxes and stretches right into the contact. It’s her little thinking cap/training wheels… lol. I love the thing. It’s non-invasive and right there ready to engage when it needs to engage, and floppy when she’s going well.

Quoted from lstevensen:

but to me “giving” to the hand implies a backward motion of the jaw (dropping the contact)

Isn’t that the same as “behind the bit”? Are we on the same page here?

The terms I have come to use are, “above the bit”, “on the bit”, or “behind the bit”.

“On the bit” being a loaded phrase because it includes the whole horse essentially and the circle of aids, a term I am familiar with, but haven’t heard in a while.

Yes, so to me “giving” to the bit implies that the horse drops slightly behind the bit, whether or not he is behind the vertical. “On the bit” means that the horse is moving correctly from behind into the contact, but not going through it. Although I much prefer the term “on the aids”.

I prefer “on the aids” also, but it seems that one always has to break it down into separate parts in order to discuss what falls out of line.

"“giving” to the hand implies a backward motion of the jaw (dropping the contact) "

I don’t know if you’re saying you want that - I wouldn’t.

I don’t want the horse to ‘give to the bit’ in that way, to me, that would be a serious problem.

This is the biggest problem with draw reins:

100% of people who use draw reins claim to use them “correctly”. 99% of them are wrong.

And, as ESG points out, lots of people who think they are just keeping their horse from giraffing are actually using them to keep his nose in… and, thus you get a horse who habitually goes BEHIND the bit… and, as she also correctly points out… this is a really DIFFICULT problem to fix.

Quoted from slc2:

“giving” to the hand implies a backward motion of the jaw (dropping the contact)" (sic, quoted from lstevenson)

I don’t know if you’re saying you want that - I wouldn’t.

I don’t want the horse to ‘give to the bit’ in that way, to me, that would be a serious problem.

I was trying to figure out some of the terminolgy of the various posters in reference to what “giving to the bit” actually meant. I called it “giving to the hand” when actually I should have said “giving to the bit” in my quest to understand terms that I have never used in my life. I was trying to figure out if the term could have any relevant meaning to a horse that is working correctly.

If it means, which I believe it does based on lstevenson’s simple descriptions, “dropping behind the bit” (even if the horse had not dropped behind the vertical), then, NO, I would never want that. It is the worst habit to get rid of.

it is nonesense that the horses jaw is stiff because he doesnt use his hind end, horses mouths need educating, softening and suppling just like any other part of the horse, including the poll, they do not automatically have a mouth because we ride their hind end up under them, really think about that concept in a green horse
a horse has to learn what a bit is for, the aids of that bit and how to respond to it, we need clear consistent rein aids , draw reins can be used before any resistance starts as a training aid, not just for resistant horses. We put horses on the outside rein for balance and that is the backbone of dressage riding to the outside hand, has that changed is the backbone method of dressage in the 80’s gone? what about squeeze and release of the inside hand to get the horse to yeild the lower jaw and accept the bit, what about the hungarian method of dressage where at the walk you move your hand forward with each shoulder ad done wrong looks like see sawing, EVERYTHING in dressage done right can be done wrong to someone else or it can be done incorrectly,
bottom line is horses mouths need to be trained, either by an educated trainers hands alone or with the use of helpful equipment

It is absolutely not nonsense. If you understand dressage as a whole, you know that correct, even activity in the hind legs and the swinging relaxed back fix everything in front of the withers naturally.

Ask youself what the horse is doing with the rest of his body when he happens to be against the hand, and you will see. If you choose to fix the symptom (the jaw or neck) rather than the cause of the symptom (the back and hindlegs), you are riding front to back and you will not advance correctly in dressage. As getting the horse to “soften” to your hand changes nothing behind the withers, it only creates a false illusion of the correct outline in the front of the horse.

Yes, a horse does have to learn to ACCEPT the contact before real dressage can begin, but draw reins do NOT teach acceptance, they force subservience. It’s always a false frame as they learn to drop behind the contact to avoid the strength of the draw rein. When to be correct, the horse moves confidently into the contact without going against the hand.

Spoken like someone who’s never actually gotten a horse through from behind. Ever hear of “leg”, when riding?

I wasn’t able to get through all of the posts but I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I am a trainer and have been for a number of years. I began my working student with a “rehab” barn that literally took on the worst of the worst horses that had been so ruined by poor riding/training that if they couldn’t be turned around there they were as good as a pasture mutt (or worse - dead). Nonetheless I often saw the results of improperly used draw reins: a stiff, rigid and fixed “on the bit.” Being properly bridled is not fixed or rigid, it should be soft and supple and “giving” to the hand. Some of the finest horses I’ve produced felt like feathers in your hands, yet did not come behind the bit or push their heads far above the vertical either. They truly had self carriage, suppleness, etc.

I have used draw reins on a small number of occasions with very positive results. They key with draw reins are: 1) it must be seen as a TEMPORARY measure, and so much so that you use them in a limited fashion and seek to move on to riding without them as quickly as possible. If you’re horse is not progressing and you cannot ride without them you need to get rid of them because you’re not using them correctly. I would say that, on average, any horse I’ve used them on, spent 1-2 weeks of riding in them, and I was then able to move on without them. It’s a SHORT time frame that is spent with draw reins the rest is up to good hands/riding and consistency, patience and persistence. I would say that 99.99999999999% of riders should never go near draw reins…

The other thing riders need to understand is that if you’re timing isn’t good enough WITHOUT draw reins, it most certainly NOT good enough to ride with draw reins. I really believe in such an instance that a qualified rider who knows what they are doing school the horse and establish the proper giving and flexion for the “amateur” rider so that the rider can then learn and progress with the horse. Draw reins should NOT be used to teach a rider flexion and give. Proper instruction should do that. I have not once used such aids to teach my students how to achieve bridling, and I don’t believe in putting inexperienced hands on tools that require absolute precision, experience, accuracy and feel…

Keep in mind also that when you incorporate tools such as draw reins into your training program you are not teaching the horse how to respond to you based on your normal rein, you are teaching them how to respond to the draw rein. SO, once you teach a horse the direction in which you want them to go WITH the draw reins, you must then unteach that and then re-teach them how to establish a similar behavior WITHOUT the draw reins (so almost double the amount of work - or you could avoid the confusion and simply train without them). EVERYONE always thinks they have a more difficult than average horse and a giraffe neck and such… But honestly, the only horses I’ve had difficulties establishing proper contact with (re-training) were those who had spent a lot of time in DR. Those that hadn’t spent much time (including a Saddlebred - which is most definately a giraffe like horse) tend to be quite adept at giving properly, quickly… Provided you have timing and precision and know what you are doing. I can’t even remember the last time I pulled out my draw reins… They’ve not been used in years…

As a trainer, I really think the best training comes without a lot of tools and artificial aids. That being said I think there is always a time and place for most training tools, I have used them on occassion. However, overall, I think simply persistence, repetition and good timing can achieve a better, permanent and correct result in a shorter time frame.

If you want a better understanding of draw reins and how they work on a horse, I highly recommend the book Tug of War: Classical Versus “Modern” Dressage: Why Classical Training Works and How Incorrect Riding Negatively Affects Horses’ Health

http://www.amazon.com/Tug-War-Classical-Incorrect-Negatively/dp/1570763755/ref=pd_sim_b_title_4

IMO it’s a must read for anyone seriously interested in dressage, whether they show or not.

Eileen

[QUOTE=ideayoda;3075658]
Someone was saying something about ‘idealistc’ responses. It is even MORE important that a ruined horse’s retraining CLEARLY make a statement of what the rider DOES want. It is NOT giving to the bridle nor lowering the head per se. They are ONLY for getting lateral flexability and then allowing the horse to stretch as a result, that is ‘showing the horse the way to the ground’, the way to REuse its neck properly. It is NOT for longitudinal flexion, curling the horse down, enforcing ‘giving’ (that is precisely why most riders should not use them). A trainer which uses them should have a great seat, leg under control (to support/ask for the horse to meet the bit), and the ability to allow (a lot of) stretching if the horse ‘offers’. MOST riders tend to demand response 1 (ie flexion), but not allow response 2 (ie streching/reward), and then wonder why the horse withdraws or shortens the gait or gets hyperactive or etc.[/QUOTE]

Hrm, paula? Dat you?

Eileen