Drawrein question.

[ESG]

@Rival;3069350

I don’t really understand why people get so upset about draw reins. It isn’t a fixed rein used to tie the horses head down. It is just simply to discourage the horse from going to the wrong place (ie grabbing the bit and inverting). Yes, ideally you should be an organized and correct enough rider to avoid this from happening but some people just aren’t quick enough and if used properly they can be a great aid to help horse and rider get organized. So I view draw reins as an aid to remind the horse not to come off of the bit rather than an aid to put them on it (does that make sense?).

Um, draw reins do not put a horse on the bit. They encourage a horse to curl up behind the bit. If used often enough and severely enough, the horse can and will learn to evade the bit by dropping behind it. Correcting this sort of evasion is very difficult, and a very lengthy process. Best just to ride correctly.

That said, draw reins can be useful with a horse that tends to throw its head or be unusually resistant to correct riding. I had to use them on several horses that came through the dressage sale barn I worked at. Horses hadn’t been correctly taught, and so had to be “quick fixed” in order to be sold. I didn’t like it, but when you ride for someone else, you do what they say. It did help with several older horses that had connection issues, that needed to be reminded that they did, at one time, have proper training and know how to respond to correct riding. Still didn’t like using them, though. I don’t own a pair, to this day.

[lstevenson]

@amastrike;3073026

Are you saying giving to the bit is bad? I’ve been taught that you want your horse to give. Unless we have different ideas of what giving to the bit is…

I don’t want the horse to “give” to the bit. I don’t want him “against” the bit either. What is correct is when the horse moves into the bit confidently and with relaxation.

[ESG]

@MyReality;3071377

What is the intention of draw reins?

I would like to understand.

I have yet to come across a horse who is totally not receptive to correct training despite the fact he is comfortable.

They’re out there, believe me. Usually older horses that have been either allowed to get away with incorrect response to the aids, or horses that become resistant due to pain issues. I’ve voluntarily used draw reins on one horse that I’ve trained, in the 20+ years I’ve been training, and I used them twice, because nothing else I tried, worked. Those two sessions “got the message through” to the horse, and he was better afterwards. Not “fixed”, by any means, but better. Sometimes they’re a great tool to work through a single issue, or to get off a plateau and help the horse transition to the next phase of its education. But all too often, they’re used as a crutch by incompetent riders to attempt to impart the training they’re incapable of.

I forget the German saying, but the English translation of it is, “Where the training ends, the draw reins begin.” 'Nuff said, I think. :winkgrin:

[vanheimrhorses]

right and wrong

the problem being draw reins are not meant to be attached between the horses front legs but to the sides of the girth, so how many times do you see them attached correctly and then they should be attached to their own bit i,e the horse wears two snaffles, now narrow it down to how many times you see that, then those particular horses actually get schooled correctly in draw reins and there is a frame that is real not forced, the horse breaks at the poll not half way down the neck, you can give and create a slack but we want a soft contact that is the whole purpose, but the give can be there when the horse comes on the vertical and in them he develops muscles that make it uncomfortable for him to go inverted in the wrong frame the way he went before we used the draw reins and so therefore that is why we use them/

[BaroquePony]

Uuhh, I feel like I’m confessing my sins to a Catholic Priest …

The only “gadget” I own is a set of draw reins. I buckle them high up under my saddle flap above the buckle of the girth (regular billets, not extended).

I have only used them on three different horses (out of maybe 300 that I’ve ridden in my total lifetime).

One horse was an incorrigible (sp?) school pony that defied the laws of physics and it was a waste of time. Anything with that ruined pony was a waste of time.

The other two were very ruined also.

One was a 17.2 hh off-the-track thoroughbred that had been on the FA open jumping circuit and had been drugged up just to control him. He was “cut” late. Not a happy camper. Amazing horse or I wouldn’t have wasted my time on him. I only used draw reins on him for about seven days at different times. It was well after I had begun reschooling him and he had been reaching for the bit and moving into it in a very relaxed manner for at least six months. I took him to a clinic. The “I” Judge that was instructing at the
clinic got on him. My mistake. Although I asked said Judge remove his spurs, I stupidly did not demand it, and I Judge said it would be OK. Judge used his spurs with a little more gumption than was necessary and he did not have as soft of a hand. He was used to warmbloods. Even though he came over to me right away, removed his spurs, handed them to me and apologized, the damage had been done. Horse was smoked.

Took me six months to get the horse to settle down again. Draw reins helped with his rasing his head really high. I kept them loose and slightly looped, but if he put his head up really fast, it saved me from getting a busted nose. He was like riding the tiger. An extremely fast athletic horse.

The other horse was a stud until he was twelve and he had been ridden in an upside down manner for a long time. Also a fast athletic horse, but of a different make and model. The muscles underneath his neck were huge. He immediately went for the “show the horse the way to the ground” done properly. Loved it, took to it naturally. However, on occasion he would just put his head up and brace the bit against his molars. I got tired of it, so I rode him in draw reins for a couple of weeks. Kept them loose and loopy unless he did the bracing thing. Usually I would only use one rein and he’d give and then he would work correctly for another three days. After two weeks of having them on, he usually ran into them once every three of four days. Other than that he never felt them and he was on the bit like a normal horse. He also came with an exceptionally calloused mouth. That went away fairly quickly. He now has a baby soft mouth.

I don’t like having to resort to draw reins, but I weigh in at about 125 pounds and both of the horses were very solid, strong, athletic horses with a large number of bad habits.

Edit: correction: I buckled the draw reins right at the bottom of the saddle flap and around only the first strap of the girth so they couldn’t slide down (been so long since I’ve used them I forgot)

[Tonja]

amastrike wrote:

Are you saying giving to the bit is bad? I’ve been taught that you want your horse to give. Unless we have different ideas of what giving to the bit is…?

Encouraging a horse to reach for contact and asking a horse to give to rein pressure are mutually exclusive concepts

Teaching the horse to give to the bit in response to a signal (rein pressure, ‘massaging’ the reins, ‘sponging’ the reins, ‘resistance/counter resistance’ or any other signal for that matter) merely creates a head set which has no relevance to the horse’s state of balance or free flow of energy. Teaching a horse to give to the bit is ‘hand riding’ or riding ‘front to back’ because it is just a conditioned response that is initiated by the hand or by some sort of signal.

Riding ‘back to front’ and encouraging the horse to reach for contact helps the horse flow forward with relaxed, aligned, well-timed, fuller swinging steps that naturally cause the horse to reach forward and downward with its head and neck and seek contact. The reaching gesture is a natural response to improved balance and free forward flow of energy.

Teaching a horse to ‘give to the bit’ is incompatible with helping the horse reach for contact.

[millerra]

Giving to the bit - is it a matter of degree?

Whenever these debates arise w/r/t giving to the bit I always wonder if it’s a matter of degree and the right “answer” is somewhere in the middle and based on the individual horse and his/her past training?

Just wondering, based on my experience of riding OTTBs and now riding one who never raced…

One of my OTTBs can brace badly and lean on the bit. It’s like he locks his jaw, pushes his tongue against the bit and leans on the bit. In his case, I want him to “give” to the bit - as in soften the jaw, relax the tongue and carry yourself but I don’t want him to “drop” the contact - I want him to meet the bit politely and have a “conversation”.

My young horse (never raced) doesn’t have this habit at all and rather I am always encouraging him to reach out to the bit. He will drop behind it and lose his hinney way out behind if given the opportunity (easier to race around on the forehand).

Just a thought - that giving to the bit vs dropping behind the bit is a matter of perspective on the horse you happen to be riding/training?

JMH observations (from an amateur, BTW).

[Tonja]

millerra wrote:

One of my OTTBs can brace badly and lean on the bit. It’s like he locks his jaw, pushes his tongue against the bit and leans on the bit. In his case, I want him to “give” to the bit - as in soften the jaw, relax the tongue and carry yourself but I don’t want him to “drop” the contact - I want him to meet the bit politely and have a “conversation”.

Softening a horse’s jaw by making it give to the bit might make the contact feel ‘softer’ but it does not address the underlying imbalance that is creating the problem, whereas improving the horse’s independent balance has a positive effect on the whole horse.

[millerra]

You are correct in not that softening them does not address the imbalance, but (perhaps due to my own riding skill) it is damned hard if not impossible to change the balance of a horse when they are stiff and braced against the bit and seek that position as “the place to go”. “softening” them is but one piece of a rather large puzzle.

[Tonja]

millerra wrote:

You are correct in not that softening them does not address the imbalance, but (perhaps due to my own riding skill) it is damned hard if not impossible to change the balance of a horse when they are stiff and braced against the bit and seek that position as “the place to go”. “softening” them is but one piece of a rather large puzzle.

Well ridden school figures, transitions and half halts are very effective in rebalancing horses that are braced and leaning. It’s just a matter of developing a bit of tact.

[millerra]

yes, I am a tactless rider w/ harsh aids w/ no feel or ability to train a horse or ride dressage. Nor do I have access to any knowledgeable coaching or training.

Thank you for your analysis via the internet.

[slc2]

A wee bit like saying automatic weapons can be used for humane euthenasia, LOL.

They CAN be, but fact is, most of the time, they ain’t.

There isn’t much good in saying so though - once someone gets going with draw reins they tend to get really hooked. In a few years, there will be a 12 step program.

I’ve met a lot of people who use draw reins - most of the time, regardless of what words they use for what they’re doing, they’re trying to ‘set’ a horse’s head so they don’t have to learn how to supple the horse and ride it forward into the bit.

It’s difficult, it’s very difficult to bump that ideal book description up against trying to struggle thru actually doing it, plus most people are trying to learn it at the same time they’re teaching it to a horse that doesn’t know it, so a lot of people get frustrated and they need a way to get the horse to put his head down and tuck his chin in. If they look at a lot of other riding styles, it’s perfectly fine, so they don’t see why dressage should be any different.

I have, in about 50 years, seen one person (yup one) who used draw reins NOT to hold the horse’s head in and avoid the job of learning how to make a real connection with the horse. People don’t really think they are doing it…trouble is…they are.

How do you know they’re being used correctly?

1. They AREN’T hanging down in a loop, actually - that’s wrong to think something GOOD is happening when reins are hanging down - they AREN’T hanging loose - the horse has a flexible, appropriate connection with the bit, and he’s ‘through his neck’ (the muscles are rippling and loose and he maintains his connection). They should not hang down and ‘only come into play when he puts his head up’ -

That isn’t how they’re supposed to be used at all. That’s using them like a guardrail when you go off the road - the idea is get to where you don’t go off the road.

Something that ‘hangs down until the horse lifts his head up too much’ isn’t going to school a dressage horse - it’s no different than having a standing martingale on a horse.

SURE - it will save you from getting bashed in the face with a horse-s neck and that does indeed have some value in an emergency. but one needs to not kid onese’f that it’s doing a lot more than that.

2. The horse’s neck isn’t telescoped into itself and broke 12 inches behind his poll.

[BaroquePony]

"Quoted from slc2:

1. They AREN’T hanging down in a loop, actually - that’s wrong to think something GOOD is happening when reins are hanging down - they AREN’T hanging loose - the horse has a flexible, appropriate connection with the bit, and he’s ‘through his neck’ (the muscles are rippling and loose and he maintains his connection). They should not hang down and ‘only come into play when he puts his head up’ -

That isn’t how they’re supposed to be used at all. That’s using them like a guardrail when you go off the road - the idea is get to where you don’t go off the road.

Something that ‘hangs down until the horse lifts his head up too much’ isn’t going to school a dressage horse - it’s no different than having a standing martingale on a horse."

I don’t know how others might define “hanging down in a loop” or “loopy” (I don’t even know if that is actually a word, even though I used it in an earlier post), but when I used it in reference to how I was using draw reins, I had the horse(s) on a normal contact with my regular snaffle rein at all times. The horse(s) were flexing at the poll correctly, had a relaxed jaw and were softly chewing on the bit. The “loop” of the draw rein was relative to the length of the regular snaffle rein. The draw reins were being used as if I were using a curb rein and I gave them approximately one to two inches of slack per rein. I call that “loopy”. I was also prepared to allow one or the other draw rein to slide through my fingers if I needed to use an open rein with the regular snaffle rein. Can’t use an open rein with a standing martingale.

In my case I was trying to develop more consistency in eleminating some very bad habits.

If I had only been using draw reins that were “hanging loose” and not using my regular snaffle reins with a normal contact then I could see where it would be in the realm of useless.

When the draw reins were “hanging down”, I considered it something good because it meant that the horse(s) that I was working with were going forward on the regulare snaffle contact properly.

Kinda like spurs, I wear 'em, but I rarely use them. However, when I need them, I need them, so I normally wear them.

[egontoast]

When the draw reins were “hanging down”, I considered it something good because it meant that the horse(s) that I was working with were going forward on the regulare snaffle contact properly.

Yes, don’t worry. Your description made perfect sense.

[amastrike]

When my horse is giving to the bit, he’s soft and light on the inside rein, but maintaining steady contact on the outside. Which is a challenge, because he just loves to drop back behind the vertical. He stretches to the contact nicely and has some degree of self-carriage (I can throw the reins away for a half-dozen strides W-T-C and he’ll stay round, then he’ll gently drop his head looking for the contact again). When my dressage trainer was going over giving with me, she stressed the importance of keeping the steady contact on the outside rein, not letting the horse drop that.

[cinder88]

Draw reins are a tool that can be used to start you on the road to fixing a specific problem that is standing in the way of progressing in training, usually due to a horse’s bad habits or learned resistance.

Of course, correct riding is of the utmost importance. No one argues with that fact.

But, tools are available to help us out, not necessarily to use as a shortcut or long term. People tend to think that others are immediately “abusing” draw reins and will become addicted to them or something. That’s ridiculous. Yes, some abuse them like some abuse just about everything…Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. (Geez…just typing that phrase shows how OLD I am!).

IMO, draw reins can show a horse that there IS another option to the way they habitually travel. Some horses, due to conformation, bad training, whatever just don’t KNOW that they can work…and be more comfortable…if they round up and use their backs…The judicious use of draw reins can actually make the light bulb go on in the horse’s head and make a huge difference to their way of going and future training prospects.

WARNING!!! Tangent ahead!

Originally, draw reins were to be used on the CAVESSON, for lateral flexions. That makes some sense. (However, HORRORS! That teaches “giving to pressure” which some here decry…)They then progressed to the bit,because they gave more control on a bolting horse or high headed horse and then progressed to being used between the front legs, when “long and low” became the mantra for every dressage horse in the '80’s.

We now see a generation (or two) of riders who are reaping the (non) benefits of this in horses who don’t go past Second level and can’t get their horses to the point of collection because they’ve spent the last years asking them to travel on the forehand in the name of “relaxation”.

Tangent over.

Cinder

[slc2]

Yes, the description of how the draw reins are used makes perfect sense, it was understood.

What I am saying is that I have a difference of opinion with others on their use. But I am not saying they have to agree with me, nor that I have to agree with them.

I don’t feel they ‘show a horse a better/different way’. I have a difference of opinion with that and with the general way they are used (a loop in the draw rein). When they are used that way they serve the purpose of a standing martingale, to get the head down when it raises up too high. I feel having the draw rein (relatively) loose is the same thing whether a snaffle rein is used with them or not. In either case the horse is behind the aids, yeah, the way I look at it, even if he is contacting the snaffle. Yes that’s a different way of looking at it and no I don’t expect anyone to agree.

I also acknowledged that not getting bashed in the face is a good thing, but that they are a safety measure rather than an effective way to teach a horse dressage.

That’s where I differ with others on the use of draw reins. I am not trying to convince anyone or trying to force them to agree with me.

Having them loose compared to the snaffle rein serves as a preventative to keep them from lifting their head up.

What I’ve seen though is that when the draw reins are off, the horse lifts his head up too much, ie, the problem comes back. It still has to be resolved. It may give the rider a chance to relax knowing the horse can’t lift its head up and hurt (or drive him crazy if it’s not actually bashing him in the nose ut is still up too high)…but what often happens with them is that the horse ‘breaks the neck’ well behind the poll, and then one has another problem to fix.

What I feel is far more effective and causes far LESS problem is if the draw reins are as long as the snaffle rein, and the emphasis is not on getting the head down but getting the neck stretched out and forward in front of the horse, with a ‘through’ or supple connection.

No, not with a shortened, pulled-in neck but with a very supple and natural position of the neck and head. This is what I saw in France and had a lengthy discussion with a Saumer-trained instructor on exactly how and why this is done, and how it is so different from how draw reins are generally used. I have seen one other person use them this way, and it was far more successful tahn the way i usually see them used.

Rather than use them to keep the head from moving ‘out of range’, this way they establish a supple, normal connection.

And I feel the connection you get with draw reins used that way, even if the horse doesn’t break behind the poll, does not have the through, supple quality that one achieved without such things will have.

To the extent that over the years a number of trainers and judges have confidently bragged to me that “I can spot a horse schooled that way in draw reins from a mile away”. Dressage riders should be aware that that is quite possible.

Used at the same length as the snaffle reins, however, they serve a purpose for at most a few days or two weeks, and are not needed after that. The fact that the draw reins are needed for much longer when used the other way is, I feel, indicative that there is a better way to use them.

And I do feel that if they are used in an attempt to ‘set’ the horse’s head that it can develop in to a very long term use of draw reins.

When draw reins were used with cavesons, the cavesons had much more weight and leverage, and some had a roughened inside so that they were extreeeemely coercive. With modern less coarse horses I feel the caveson is much more coercive than necessary.

[egontoast]

This is what I saw in France and had a lengthy discussion with a Saumer-trained instructor on exactly how and why this is done, and how it is so different from how draw reins are generally used.

Oh right, when you were ‘in France’. You weren’t there long though, were you, based on your ‘command’ of the French language.:lol:

[ideayoda]

Someone was saying something about ‘idealistc’ responses. It is even MORE important that a ruined horse’s retraining CLEARLY make a statement of what the rider DOES want. It is NOT giving to the bridle nor lowering the head per se. They are ONLY for getting lateral flexability and then allowing the horse to stretch as a result, that is ‘showing the horse the way to the ground’, the way to REuse its neck properly. It is NOT for longitudinal flexion, curling the horse down, enforcing ‘giving’ (that is precisely why most riders should not use them). A trainer which uses them should have a great seat, leg under control (to support/ask for the horse to meet the bit), and the ability to allow (a lot of) stretching if the horse ‘offers’. MOST riders tend to demand response 1 (ie flexion), but not allow response 2 (ie streching/reward), and then wonder why the horse withdraws or shortens the gait or gets hyperactive or etc.

[lstevenson]

@millerra;3073855

You are correct in not that softening them does not address the imbalance, but (perhaps due to my own riding skill) it is damned hard if not impossible to change the balance of a horse when they are stiff and braced against the bit and seek that position as “the place to go”. “softening” them is but one piece of a rather large puzzle.

“Softening” them with your hands, draw reins or not, is addressing the wrong end of the horse. Horses feel stiff in their jaw because their hind ends are not working properly, not because their jaws need “softening”.