Just curious to know from the serious dressage riders, how accurate is it the so-called idea/myth/truth that dressage horses gaits are not “improved” much more than their inherency? Do dressage horses just naturally have that movement, or is it developed? And by how much, if at all?
I have a few non-dressage friends who claim a dressage horse just naturally have the gait-style required in the sport, ie specifically bred and such, and there isn’t much development. They claim it is a waste of time to pursue dressage competitively if you do not have a horse like this as you won’t make it very far, which I’m sure is true, but alas: I just wanted to confirm with actual competitive riders this is the case? I’m thinking the subject in mind might be mid to upper level successful horses.
Well, a TB has been bred for centuries to run fast. Dispite this selection, some are just plain slow. The WB has been bred for 60 years or so for sport, either jumping or dressage. Their gaits are different from a TB because they do a different job. Dispite this selection, some are just not good at jumping or dressage. But with a WB you have greater chance of finding a horse that can do it, has the shape to make the movements easy and the mind to accept the training.
One of the most noticeable things about Carl Hester (superhero) is that he does not spend huge money on horses. He purchased Valegro, after it failed the stallion selection tests , because of how it used it’s hocks. That was buying movement not the breed.
It is interesting to watch eventing dressage. At the top level most of the riders would now be competitive in straight dressage but the horses are not dressage WB because they need to be able to gallop xc. The improvement in rider skill has vastly improved the dressage skills of their horses.
Can anyone be competitive in dressage on a non-WB? Yes, I see it here in the UK. But IMHO it does depend on having skilled judges who can see the training and correct movement rather than just the breed.
There’s a lot to un-pack in your original post, so I’ll do my best to avoid overgeneralizing on any one point.
I do not think it is accurate to say that gaits cannot be improved. I DO think that not all riders are capable of improving gaits.
I think it is also fair to say that some horses have a naturally “better” way of going than others. I do not think that automatically means that (especially at the upper levels) they are going to win. If you look at the top international horses right now, I personally think that Sönke Rothenberger’s Cosmo is a better natural mover than many of Isabell Werth’s horses, and certainly has better natural gaits than Laura Graves’ Verdades. That does not mean he outscores them with any form of consistency. The best “natural movers” aren’t necessarily winning, especially when facing competition who can ride tactful, complete, error-free tests.
Based off the above, it’s also fair to point out that even at the most elite levels, horses are not carbon copies of one another. You see some being powerhouses/super strong who can be very good at the collection & extension. Others seem more dextrous and display more proficiency with lateral movements or pirouettes. It’s clear that the upper levels of the sport allow for variation in capability.
I think that leads to my next point: a dressage test is a complete test. Gaits are a component of a test, but not the test in isolation. Some horses with spectacular gaits might have an easier time getting good marks on things like extension, but that does not mean that they are naturally gifted enough to score 8’s across the board in all movements. Training plays a key role, regardless of natural ability.
I recognize that warmbloods are purpose-bred, and that it’s hands down going to be much easier to find a fabulous, capable mover who is a warmblood compared to a thoroughbred or an arabian. You see this at auction, even. Foals are presented that based off the quality of the gaits displayed by a very young horse, people will purchase for serious competition prospects. But again, gaits aren’t the only part of a dressage test.
That said, there are examples of “off breed” horses succeeding. Lilo Fore started off with thoroughbreds and did fabulously. Verdades, through his dam’s pedigree, has a surprising prevalence of Gelderlander (which is a part of the KWPN registry, but from my understanding it’s the non-riding/harness component). Just because a horse is bred to the nines for a job doesn’t mean they’re a shoo-in. Likewise, just because a horse isn’t bred for a job doesn’t mean it isn’t capable.
Saying that “you won’t make it very far” on an off-breed horse seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me. I successfully showed my thoroughbred (and was competitive in popular, recognized shows). Likewise, my trainer campaigned her racing-retired thoroughbred (who was a late-in-life career switch to dressage) through fourth. Judges like Janet Foy, Lilo Fore, and Linda Zang have scored her horse, my horse, or both very fairly, and under such judging, both horses were competitive in their classes.
Now, here is the thing I will say about off-breeds: I find it disheartening how many people I run into who show them have chips on their shoulder about it, as if the deck is stacked against them from the get-go. I find this attitude depressing. Point for point, will a thoroughbred (or arabian or morgan) compete with a warmblood on something like an extension? No, probably not. But that does not mean that the alternatively-bred horse cannot find movements in which to excel in to still be competitive. I wish more people were open-minded on that point and instead of approaching it in what almost seems to be a combative and/or self-defeating way, could find a more positive approach to their riding, their horse, and their attitude about competition.
My trainer specializes in breeding, and then training up the levels, dressage horses. It’s been very interesting to watch each grow up. Every one of them started out as at-least descent movers - from breeding. However, with correct training they’ve all become fancy movers. One horse who we thought would “make a nice hunter” when she was younger turned into a truly fabulous mover. Definitely a combination of both breeding and training.
I do find it interesting to watch sales videos out of Europe of just-broke 3-YO’s with these amazing gaits and wonder if they will improve even more, stay like that, or break down early because they’re being pushed too much too soon.
Here are two entirely differently moving horses. Both score well. The second rider is absolutely brilliant.
But to answer your question- a horse that moves evenly, accurately and performs the movement will score well. But as in anything else brilliance helps.
Here are two entirely differently moving horses. Both scored well, but the OP must understand that any sound forward and accurate ride can score well , But brilliance helps. Some horse rider combos will never have that brilliance,
Ingrid Klimke personifies it in her ride. The first video.
Interesting question… I would like to know who participating in this discussion has actually improved the gaits of their horses… I think there are many many factors to the question. First of all its the rider… An average rider will not improve the gaits but can be happy if they stay the way they were… Sadly there are many horses which get worse over time. Then there are horses which do not have impressive gaits as youngsters but become very impressive because of their mind and their willingness to work. And of course with a young horse you can push some things easier because they don’t know how to resist yet… But they will learn soon and in the long run horses which are pushed too hard in the beginning are not the most willing dressage partners… I think you need a horse with no major faults and then you just need to start to train it as correct as possible and see how far you get… I am pretty sure that nobody knows for sure in the beginning how far each horse will make it… Gaits are one part of the puzzle, but there is a lot more…
I have a friend whose horse is a 4th/PSG packer and who regularly gets 7’s on the gait score, but who started off with 5’s and sometimes 4’s. My friend bred the horse and developed it herself and so was able to talk about how she transformed the horse. It happened with a TON of correct riding and training.
She said that although the horse had good breeding and in theory should have had decent gaits, it started off with a lateral walk, a poor trot, and did not have a quality canter.
I think it is possible to improve all gaits, particularly the trot, but the other two take a lot more work. From what my friend described, the amount of work it took to improve the walk and to some extent the other gaits was not the kind of thing most people would be inclined to do and it’s also not always successful. (basically very routine and boring to most people)
Dressage can and SHOULD improve a horse’s gaits. I don’t know if she’s on this forum or not, but a friend had an Anglo Arabian mare she bought for endurance, then found dressage. She got her gold medal on her horse, and her early years videos vs later years videos were fantastic for showing the change correct work can do for a horse’s movement.
Both of my horses improved their gait quality approximately 2 points. But for those of us who don’t even classify ourselves as good, the key is knowing our weaknesses and strengths, and buying or breeding for those things. I absolutely do NOT trust my own ability to ride a horse’s hind legs underneath it. A horse like Laura Graves’ Verdades who naturally wants the hind legs out behind would be a HORRIBLE match for me. She’s amazing and does a great job with him - not a skill I have. However, the tight backed horses who lack swing? That I can work with. I’m prozac for horses, and even when my mare is super hyped up and anxious, typically if I get on her she immediately lets out a sigh and relaxes. So I get high energy, tight types since I don’t have the budget to just buy a perfect horse - and work with what I’m good at working with. My thoroughbred is currently a far better mover than my warmblood mare, but she’s almost as old as he was when I got him now. Maturity and time may improve her gaits well beyond his, and likely will. Except the walk. Her walk now regularly gets 8s vs the 5s/6s when I started showing her - it used to get lateral from tension and tightness in the back.
Now, keeping in mind in general judges start at a base score dependent on the quality of the horse’s gaits for every movement - I’m not winning international competitions on my horses, even if I WERE a good enough rider. My mare is likely to top out at 8s on walk and canter movements, with most trot work topping out at 7 for now, which puts us in the 70s if we don’t make mistakes. Eventually I think we will be in the 70s regularly, but right now we’re more like 68% max. On the other hand, I have a friend who imported a super nice youngster. A judge commented that he will be a mid-80s horse because his gaits are so nice. Right now, he’s low 70s because he’s young, energetic, and the trainer is correctly not stifling him to prevent errors, and instead fostering freedom of movement and development of self carriage. So he makes mistakes, as young horses tend to do. Eventually, though, he’ll be that mid-80s horse, especially as his trainer is allowing him to develop his gaits by not constraining him.
Mann01: I think many of us have improved our horse’s gaits. Good basic riding will do it. That includes the familiar circles and turns, transitions within and between the gaits, and lateral work.
I believe most of us here including myself are average riders… And very sorry but I also believe most people are not able to improve the gaits of their horses… There are riders on the top who can do it and I do see it sometimes when a horse and a rider bond really well and the horse really works together with the rider. But its nothing you can really expect to happen just because you ride the horse… I think its about really finding the right rhythm and tempo with the horse and working it over the back while keeping the horse supple and loose… I don’t think good basic riding is enough… But I am only an average rider, maybe I don’t know…
I have improved my horses’ gaits through the use of dressage and have done so more than once - no fluke or one hit wonder, no exceptional methods or godly riding just pure dressage and the understanding of what building the right musculature and developing the proper tempo - maintaining that through every training ride over time - can do for the betterment of the horse. I consider myself the average rider, not a pro, work full-time in a different profession, have grown children but my riding spanned the time I raised them, take care of aging and infirmed parents, juggling many responsibilities. In other words, I don’t get to focus on my riding even the majority of my waking hours. I have non-warmbloods. I am not an international level rider and never will be. I work on myself as well as my horses in terms of improving my athletic ability. The concepts aren’t hard; the sweat equity is necessary; and more time on doing than debating theory helps. Just damn ride correctly…as stated , focus on the basics…with reasonable expectations. Oh and reasonable expectations doesn’t mean the horse because of breed or inherent traits can’t improve, it means knowing how to develop the horse at the proper rate (don’t overface too soon, don’t give up too soon) that prevents injury and achieves success.
I am an average rider, but I have seen my horses gaits improve. It has to do with suppleness and elasticity. If the horse isn’t moving better by the end personally I consider that a big problem. It’s been one of my greatest joys to watch my horses get better and more beautiful in expression.
You said: “I don’t think good basic riding is enough…”
Hugh? its all about good basics. FULL STOP. You watched RD, didn’t you? that is exactly how I like to ride.
Tricks are just tools and products of the basics. Movements are used to produce these basics to a higher degree. HI improves throughness/straightness… and a good walk halt will improve the collection/balance.
Back to the OP- I think the horse regresses to the level of the rider, always. So a nice moving horse will suffer and I was quite shocked with one horse that really looked almost lame with a rider that was not balanced. An 8 mover can become a 5 mover if there is not a good match with the rider, or too much tension.
Likewise, a good rider will improve the loft of THAT horse. A 6 horse can never be an 8
However, each horse has a different start point. If you doubt breeding comes into play watch the Rovert Dover clinic and compare to the George Morris clinic. All lovely riders and horses, but the movement and gaits are COMLETELY different.
Complicated subject, too much for a message board I am afraid
I am the proud (and sometimes bemused) owner of a grade red mare. When I bought her I loved her walk and lope, but HATED her trot, I knew we could develop that. I am a below average rider, but have a great coach, over the last two years we have developed her trot, it is now rhythmical and has energy to it.
I have always heard, and believe to a point, that you can improve gaits to a point. You can improve the trot most and easiest, I personally believe the walk is the hardest to improve - it is so easy to make it lateral if you fuss with it too much. When evaluating horses, particularly young ones, I look at more walk than most people do. In competitive dressage there are so many points to be won (or lost) in the walk, that you can fry your scores by several percentage points just in the walk.
Conversely, as we all know, you can downgrade a horse’s gaits. In my barn there was a truly fabulous 4yo. But too big and too fabulous for the rider to keep up with, so now he’s just…nice. I often wonder when I see him being ridden at what point you’d never be able to recover those gaits that used to show themselves all the time.
That is weird. I’m very average, bought a very average moving appendix mare in April, and even with very inconsistent training due to vet issues - I put her on the lunge last night and thought - “wow, her trot is way better than when I bought her.” She is more supple and has more suspension and tendency to stretch over the back. A lot of that has come from in-hand work when the various vet issues have prevented riding.
Perhaps if you start out with an extravagant mover, it is harder for an average rider, struggling just to stay with those gaits, to then improve upon them. But I think pretty much any conscientious rider with a fairly independent seat willing to invest in methodical training, can improve an average horse’s gaits.
It will be interesting to see what I can do with my more talented Oldenburg mare. She already has a nice, but not extravagant trot, but her canter is somewhat flat. I know she won’t be as easy to sit as the appendix mare, but I still think I’ll be able to improve her gaits over time. The improvement will probably not be as obvious or as rapid though, as she is starting from a higher baseline of quality.
And here is another thought: to me, dressage is about developing the horse. The thought of having a horse that I feel I can do nothing to improve, but rather would be lucky to not ruin, is depressing and not in the spirit with which I approach my training. I guess that will save me a lot of money in the long run on never venturing to buy a really high-dollar fancy-pants animal.
Another thing regarding gaits, sometimes a comment about gaits is just one moment in time. A single observation doesn’t always mean that’s the final word on that animal.
At the beginning of the show season, a judge commented that my horse “needs more overstride” in the walk. At first I thought, oh shoot, I’m sunk. Then I thought, wait, I think there is a better walk here. So whenever I went for a walk, I took the horse with me. (horse isn’t of riding age yet). At the end of the season we received the following comment about our walk “very vice, with good reach and swing through the back”. That was from a 5* judge.
So in the first case, I think the horse was tense and not really showing what it could do. With relaxation and some practice, it brought out more of the horse’s natural ability.
I’m in the camp of yes you can improve gaits. The one I’ve seen it best in is my standardbred. I’ve been riding my pacer gelding for years now. His walk, trot, and especially canter naturally isn’t awesome as one might expect, and yes genetics are much at play, but we developed a canter and improved it, and the more we work on it the more it improves. I even have a few tests where he got an 8 on it which I never thought would be possible for him. His trot and walk as well. Will it ever be amazing? No…but it has improved by leaps and bounds.
He’s also one that if you watch naturally out in the field you wonder how he hasn’t broken a leg yet…then put a rider on capable of putting him together and he can look super cute and even expressive from time to time, lol.
