Dressage Stallion Recommendations Needed

[tupelohoney]

Hi all–

I am planning to breed my mare soon (ish) and have started the daunting task of sifting through all of the available stallions. I am leaning towards Dutch but any warmblood is fine really, as long as the talent is there and he is compatible to my horse.

Here is her pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/tupelo+honey3

If you are wondering why I want to breed her, here is some info:

She is 1/2 Selle Francais, 1/4 Hanoverian, 1/4 Oldenburg. She schools all the PSG and some of the I1/GP stuff. She is not hot but she is very expressive and an extremely fast learner (she learned and perfected flying changes in two months, for example, and learned a correct Spanish Walk in half an hour). She is also a rather talented jumper (backed up by a GP showjumper who made me an offer for her on the spot), but we don’t do a lot of it except the occasional cross-training grid session.

Her personality is excellent and a main reason for my wanting to breed her–when I bought her as a four year old she was bombproof and even packed children around.

She’s also a very attractive horse–super conformation, nice color (golden chestnut with flaxen mane, blaze, and stockings on hind legs). She has no conformation flaws or health problems. She also has excellent hooves and builds muscle well. She is turning 10 this year and has never taken a lame step.

Things I would like to improve on:
Energy (she isn’t exactly lazy, but I am a big fan of hotter horses and would like something a bit more electric)
Size (she is 15.3 and I prefer more in the 16.2 range if at all possible. She is refined-looking but still shorter and stockier built so I am looking at taller, leggier stallions)
Gaits (she has nice gaits and consistently receives 7-8’s for them but a bit more suspension, especially in trot, would be very beneficial)

Please note that the foal will be a horse for me personally to bring up the levels (hopefully to GP), not a sale prospect. I have never bred a personal horse for myself but I have interned with a guy who specializes in warmblood breedings, so I am very well-versed with the process and everything that it entails. I am also looking into buying a young horse instead but still on the fence.

Stallions I’m currently considering are Vivaldi, Sandro Hit, Diamond Hit, and Voice.

Now that you’ve slugged your way through this post, anyone have stallion input/suggestions? Thanks!!

[keysfins]

[QUOTE=tupelohoney;8657433]
Hi all–

I am planning to breed my mare soon (ish) and have started the daunting task of sifting through all of the available stallions. I am leaning towards Dutch but any warmblood is fine really, as long as the talent is there and he is compatible to my horse.

Here is her pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/tupelo+honey3

If you are wondering why I want to breed her, here is some info:

She is 1/2 Selle Francais, 1/4 Hanoverian, 1/4 Oldenburg. She schools all the PSG and some of the I1/GP stuff. She is not hot but she is very expressive and an extremely fast learner (she learned and perfected flying changes in two months, for example, and learned a correct Spanish Walk in half an hour). She is also a rather talented jumper (backed up by a GP showjumper who made me an offer for her on the spot), but we don’t do a lot of it except the occasional cross-training grid session.

Her personality is excellent and a main reason for my wanting to breed her–when I bought her as a four year old she was bombproof and even packed children around.

She’s also a very attractive horse–super conformation, nice color (golden chestnut with flaxen mane, blaze, and stockings on hind legs). She has no conformation flaws or health problems. She also has excellent hooves and builds muscle well. She is turning 10 this year and has never taken a lame step.

Things I would like to improve on:
Energy (she isn’t exactly lazy, but I am a big fan of hotter horses and would like something a bit more electric)
Size (she is 15.3 and I prefer more in the 16.2 range if at all possible. She is refined-looking but still shorter and stockier built so I am looking at taller, leggier stallions)
Gaits (she has nice gaits and consistently receives 7-8’s for them but a bit more suspension, especially in trot, would be very beneficial)

Please note that the foal will be a horse for me personally to bring up the levels (hopefully to GP), not a sale prospect. I have never bred a personal horse for myself but I have interned with a guy who specializes in warmblood breedings, so I am very well-versed with the process and everything that it entails. I am also looking into buying a young horse instead but still on the fence.

Stallions I’m currently considering are Vivaldi, Sandro Hit, Diamond Hit, and Voice.

Now that you’ve slugged your way through this post, anyone have stallion input/suggestions? Thanks!![/QUOTE]

Have you any good conformation photos? What physical traits/conformation would you like to improve?

What sort of experience with breeding have you had? Not meant to be snarky at all, breeding is just not guaranteed to produce a perfect foal with a healthy dam. Many things can, and do, go wrong. Are you familiar with things like pre-breeding exams, uterine biopsy/culture/grading? The costs associated with the whole schmear?

[keysfins]

Adding that you may get specific recommendations (and cautions!) in the Sport Horse Breeding forum.

Also, is she in a specific registry? Does she have any performance records? Any registry predicates/titles? What about those of full siblings, or part siblings— any info on her relatives?

Your better bet may be to see if you can find a repeat breeding of her sire and dam, though that is no guarantee that you’ll get a horse similar to your mare, either.

[Pipkin]

I am not a fan of Totilas, but his son Timolin has been at the last couple of stallion parades at Badminton and that horse captures the eye!!!

[tupelohoney]

Conformation wise, the only thing I think needs improvement is height, but that’s just personal preference. Would like something a smidge taller and longer in the leg. Genetics were kind to her so there is really not much I would change–she’s built very nicely for dressage work, though her breeding suggests a jumping career

I spent a little over a year working closely with the barn manager at my barn. He specializes in warmblood breedings and he taught me procedures, precautions, research, etc. I am all too familiar with the costs and risks…seen them first hand multiple times. I have assisted with live breeding as well as artificial, assisted with every breeding-related vet procedure you can think of, and dealt with many foalings, good and bad.

She is not registered–however, I would absolutely register her before breeding (not breeding until at least next year, likely the year after). She is eligible for Hanoverian, KWPN (I believe) and a few others that I had a list of somewhere

She has a very extensive show record through 4th level, scores in 70s. She has one full sibling that I know of who is in the GP jumper ring, and one half-sister who is only two this year but showing huge promise for dressage. Her dam reached PSG and sire was GP jumper. Would love to repeat the cross and that is another option but would also like to produce something of a bit more modern type. Don’t have any photos at the moment (they’re on my laptop at home and I’m out of town) but she is 15.3, elegant but very built with muscle, powerful hind end and thick body but tends to be a bit tight in the shoulder.

[tupelohoney]

yes, Totilas is more of an example of Edward’s skill than natural talent IMO :winkgrin: thanks for the input…he is very flashy!! and a super jump!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKeHfs8qvkw

[keysfins]

I think another question to ask is what sort of rideability you might be looking for. A “Pro’s ride”? “Ammie friendly”? Not just in reference to your own abilities as a rider, but in the event you decided that the foal wasn’t what you were hoping for (for whatever reason ), to whom would you market the offspring? That can be a factor in selecting a stallion.

[Beentheredonethat]

Hm. From that video, I would not choose Timolin. I do not like that trot.

Look at Freestyle. He should put on height and leg. Jennifer is super to work with, he has bionic semen, and he’s a really good deal.

I have two. One looks exactly like Freestyle (4th level, just turned 8) and the other looks exactly like her mom, but bigger (2nd level, just turned 6.) Mom is a nice mover, and they are even nicer.

[Dutchmare433]

I would second posting a thread in the Sport Horse Breeding forum. There are a ton of breeders and stallion owners over there who really know their stuff. They are more apt to be able to tell you want bloodlines cross well with other bloodlines. Or which stallions tend to stamp XYZ on their get.

Are you looking for fresh or frozen?

[snowrider]

I personally love the G-line/ A-line cross which is what I see your mare has on the bottom. I think that is a phenomenal cross for dressage, albeit old school. I would stick with those bloodlines myself, probably a nice modern G line stallion. It sounds like she has a lot of those traits already: the color, rideability, movement and smarts. The only thing is you might not get the size you want but you should be able to get larger than 15.2hh.

The straight A line horses I’ve seen were bigger old types. I personally don’t like riding that kind of horse as much but you get a lot of suspension, in my experience. I find it a bit like trying to drive a slow giraffe but that’s my bad riding, not the horses. Still, I wouldn’t want too much A line for me, personally but I love, love that cross. Years ago I rode for an older German breeder for a while who was crossing a G line stallion onto A line mares and I rode all her horses. The cross was amazing.

Overall I’d say stay away from the hot trendy stallions and really look at horses with similar bloodlines who’ve been successful. You have a really nice mare with a couple strong and well thought out but quite different lines, you don’t want to do another big outcross imho.

[stoicfish]

I like your choices.
I would recommend taking her to an inspection held by KWPN NA. They will be able to help you with the selection. A stallion has strength (and weakness also) and they may be able to help you match them up.
Your mare has atypical breeding so she may throw something different than she is herself. I would pick a stallion that is known for stamping to cut down on the unknown.
Btw, Sandro was a bit of a fire breathing stallion as a younger horse. His offspring have huge movement but they can also be “not easy” and even difficult on the wrong cross.
Some other ideas are Zack and Dante Weltino.

[RunningwaterWBs]

Floriscount added height and a better canter to my smaller Rascalino mare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyFsw5bfMtA

[dudleyc]

I love diamond hit.

I would also consider Olivier at imajica.net. Fantastic show career. Still sound and in full GP work at 20. Beautiful tall offspring.

[JustTheTicket]

I’m going to throw out Olivier’s name too. He’s got some size, great conformation and he passes on a great, trainable temperament. All his babies that I’ve worked with (and him as well) are very friendly, trainable critters. I personally wouldn’t turn down a Fizzy baby.

[atlatl]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8657790]
…
I would recommend taking her to an inspection held by KWPN NA. They will be able to help you with the selection. A stallion has strength (and weakness also) and they may be able to help you match them up.
…[/QUOTE]

This is super advice!

A friend of mine talked to Willy Arts at a show, asking for advice on breeding her mare. He was very generous with his time and advice.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=tupelohoney;8657527]

She is not registered–however, I would absolutely register her before breeding (not breeding until at least next year, likely the year after). She is eligible for Hanoverian, KWPN (I believe) and a few others that I had a list of somewhere :)[/QUOTE]

You will likely not find a reputable registry that will register her at age 10. And you will be hard-pressed to find a reputable registry that will approve her for breeding in its top mare books, given the fact that she is not registered and therefore does not have a provable pedigree. AHS won’t consider her at all. Oldenburg (OHBS/GOV) would consider her for its lowest mare book (Pre-Mare Book II), but she would have to be inspected. I don’t know which book KWPN would put her in - no doubt its lowest one - and I don’t know if they would require inspection, but if they accept her at all, her foals by a KWPN approved stallion would be eligible for Registry B papers. Those foals cannot be used for breeding (at least, not with KWPN or various other registries such as Oldenburg and Hanoverian), but it will at least give you a start on a trackable pedigree. I am not sure if KWPN Register B horses are eligible for their awards program or not, so you might want to contact the office for more info.

As for stallions, I have been a big fan of Diamond Hit for over a decade now. I predicted quite some years back that he would be a very good sire for upper levels, and that is indeed becoming the case. He finished 2015 as the #10 ranked dressage sire in the world, and he currently leads the USEF dressage sire rankings by a huge margin. They are not always the fanciest foals, but some are little powerhouse movers, and many of his offspring show excellent ability for upper level work.

[dudleyc]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;8658931]
You will likely not find a reputable registry that will register her at age 10. And you will be hard-pressed to find a reputable registry that will approve her for breeding in its top mare books, given the fact that she is not registered and therefore does not have a provable pedigree. AHS won’t consider her at all. Oldenburg (OHBS/GOV) would consider her for its lowest mare book (Pre-Mare Book II), but she would have to be inspected. I don’t know which book KWPN would put her in - no doubt its lowest one - and I don’t know if they would require inspection, but if they accept her at all, her foals by a KWPN approved stallion would be eligible for Registry B papers. Those foals cannot be used for breeding (at least, not with KWPN or various other registries such as Oldenburg and Hanoverian), but it will at least give you a start on a trackable pedigree. I am not sure if KWPN Register B horses are eligible for their awards program or not, so you might want to contact the office for more info.

As for stallions, I have been a big fan of Diamond Hit for over a decade now. I predicted quite some years back that he would be a very good sire for upper levels, and that is indeed becoming the case. He finished 2015 as the #10 ranked dressage sire in the world, and he currently leads the USEF dressage sire rankings by a huge margin. They are not always the fanciest foals, but some are little powerhouse movers, and many of his offspring show excellent ability for upper level work.[/QUOTE]

Is there a performance consideration. 70% at 4th level?

[honeylips]

[QUOTE=dudleyc;8659140]
Is there a performance consideration. 70% at 4th level?[/QUOTE]

Not for eligibility for registration. Pedigree/parents is the sole consideration for inclusion in the main studbook with most registries. I’m not seeing 70% at 4th level stated though. I see shown through 4th and scores at 70 (but not at 4th).

It’s easy enough to pull score/show records now on the internet and that’s a help when petitioning for a higher studbook or “elite” mare placing via show record vs completing a mare performance test.But first you have to get the mare into a main stud book.

Hanoverian she is not eligible for unless her mother is AHS approved. Her pedigree indicates that the damsire was Gideon who was not AHS licensed or approved. Therefore the mother can’t be AHS and thus this daughter (the mare in question) can’t be either. I’m not sure how KWPN would be possible either based on the pedigree. Will Selle Francais offer papers to mares who are half SF?

These are all questions that can better be answered by moving this to the Sport Horse Breeders forum here. There are many folks who sit on those studbook committees who can offer great insight as to registry options.

[flyracing]

I wonder if she meant to say she not in a mare book with any particular registry yet. Since she goes on to talk about being eligible for a few.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=flyracing;8659258]
I wonder if she meant to say she not in a mare book with any particular registry yet. Since she goes on to talk about being eligible for a few.[/QUOTE]

Being eligible is not being registered. And what is said above is true as far as she is probably not eligible for KWPN or Han with that breeding.
However, if the OP just wants this foal for herself, I recommend to still pick a registry and see if she can get the mare approved for breeding, even if the foal only had pink papers. If the OP likes Dutch stallions, try and do that inspection.
Papers are important but main mare books are only important for breeding stock. Pink papers or aux will do for a gelding or a performance mare.