Driving Breed Choices-Long

[goodhors]

If you haven’t already read the original posting related to CDE and Gaited horses, go down further. I started and ImaDriver responded.

I want to make clear, my remarks are all focused on DRIVING CDE, and DRIVEN DRESSAGE. More pointed at our driving Multiples. When choosing our horses, way, way back, we talked to Multiples Drivers who were experienced in years of driving horses, had successes in Competitions. Were successful at the highest possible levels, WORLD CLASS competitors in the USA and Europe. All had driven a multitude of horses over the years, tried many breeds, could be driving any breed they chose to use. All were REALLY expert in Dressage, consider it the basic for building on, to make the best CDE horse. All planned to drive Advanced with these horses.

They ALL SAID, “Standardbreds don’t make it at the highest levels”. They said the horse is not built to do the work needed. It actually got to be funny, how exactly the same words came out of all these different folks mouths. From one end of the country to the other, other countries, agreement on Standardbreds, racing Trotters not being able to do the best Dressage needed for winning. Other countries experts pointing at their local speedy Trotters as not being bendable as needed for Dressage. Winning Trotters have all got that same body style, long and lean, straight moving. Hungary has good local Trotters, yet they are not used in CDE or only as partbred crosses to get the bending ability. One German had been long-listed as a younger man, on the German National Dressage Team in ridden Dressage. He CERTAINLY knows how to get things out of a horse, including bending. He is one of the most condemning of Standardbreds, says they have a fencepost for a spine, just can’t give you a bend. These folks have driven Morgans, all the WBs, Appy, Arab, Fjord, Lippizans, Hackney, Gelderlanders and other mixed breeds, done well with them. They learned what body is needed to win CDE.

In my experience, with a fair number of horses, you can take any of them and work VERY HARD to CHANGE them into what you want. They are not suitable for the job you need done when you start. Spend hours and years, still have the $800 horse you started with. May have $2500 or more of training in it, years of work, but won’t ever sell for more than $800. You can’t EVER turn a pig’s ear into a silk purse, you will just have a really crabby pig’s ear. Both of you try, both of you are not happy with the results or effort needed to SORTA get there. Love them all you want, horse is still NOT CAPABLE of doing that job you want. Job can be driving or any other horse discipline.

Cute looks, Baby-faced, Tiny heads, TB looks, really DO NOT MATTER TO ME when choosing a horse. Head and looks are the LAST place I look on the horse I may purchase. I start at the ground, with hooves, legs. If suitable, we move up to body, is it cabable of doing what I want? Every breed has the “average” breed body style, with some very untypical members, whom I will call freaks because they are not “Breed Normal”. Often these freaks CAN do things not typical for this breed. Unfairly used as the “example” of breed diversity. Such freaks COULD NOT place in their own breed shows, wrong style horse.

Standardbred norm is long and lean, they go the very fastest. Ribs sticking out interfere with how the stifle passes the body, slows them down. Real Breeders DO NOT breed losers, they sell or give them away. If horse can’t make time on the track, earn money, he goes on elsewhwere. Foals have to show promise of speed, not just a bloodline, to be kept until they can race. Those are the cold, hard facts of racing.

You can shop at rescues if you like. Many folks do, find horses they like and get along with. There are a lot of horses left over from both racing industries. I don’t look for my horses there. I don’t want to redo, make over, someone else’s training. I don’t want these breed styles because they are physically unable to do what I want from them without a lot of grief for me and them.

I shop for a body style horse who is EASILY CAPABLE of doing the work I want done. I expect to have horse compete at high levels. I expect horse to be as GOOD or better, than the better ridden Dressage horses, not the lowest level competitors. His body style should make any Dressage EASY for him to do, parts fall into place when collected or extended. This is not hard work for him, it all comes together smoothly as his training progresses. He says, “Ok, got that. What next?” He enjoys his jobs.

There is not WORK on my part in training him. I am not forcing him to do things that are difficult, like bending, collection, suspension. Horse poorly built may be able to do parts of that in play, but it is difficult for him to sustain form over time needed in competitions. You can love him, doesn’t matter because love STILL does not aid him in bending or collection. I can LOVE a Draft cross, that will not make him recover faster after the Marathon phase, give him more manuverability in Hazards. He is what he is made. You can’t CHANGE HIS BODY!! Deluding yourself is silly, sure is a waste of your training time trying to re-make him into something he is not. Pushing can hurt him, body won’t hold up to forced frame in work. He is no fun to work with, so neither of you have any enjoyment when you go out to work. May make you really discouraged, give up CDE hopes.

We get the horses out to have a GOOD TIME, each and every time we use them. We are not going to force horses to perform when they don’t enjoy it. 95% of the time we go out, things are enjoyable, smooth, fun. Everyone has off day, maybe we get a few more than others on here, using 4 horses each outing. They can take turns with stuff. We like them, they appear to have a good time as well, not difficult in any things we request of them. If we had a poor outing 60% of the time, this is NO FUN, something needs severe changes.

Standardbreds can be nice driving horses for pleasure uses. WA has said she knows some nice ridden Dressage ones. I know some real enjoyable ones, used in family driving, casual settings. There are probably some driven ones I don’t know, doing CDE. I would not choose the Standardbreds for myself and my uses, or point anyone towards them, who wanted to be a player in CDE. Coaching folks love STBs, easy to match, good road speeds when out cruising around, handle a load just fine. Amish have used STBs for many years, rely on them. It is nice to have places to handle giving them away, but they are not the breed for me, not even free.

As a driver you need clear vision of your own wants and needs in a horse. Knowing your aims, goals at the start, will help prevent you picking wrong choices, less suitable body styles, way-back in the beginning of looking at horses. You may like a breed, start there, yet don’t let it blind you to poor specimans or that breed may not be best for your needs. Even picking the best body for your driving uses, sometimes a horse just doesn’t work out. You need to back up, maybe let him go to a more suitable home, choose another horse to continue with if you really want to reach your goals. Few folks get to the high point or goal they set, without changing horses along the way. You are learning each time out competing, skills should improve steadily. Horse may not be capable now, since the skills bar is being raised.

Do read some of the CDE winning lists of drivers, see the breeds they drive. What levels are they at? What are higher levels of horse breeds used and winning? Most multiple Drivers have several animals to swap in and out. They look for similar body types for easy matching in stride, movements. Hard to keep 4-6 going well at all times so spares are fit. One off horse, takes out the whole Team in soundness. No one gets to play. Multiples play at the very highest levels, extremely competitive, don’t settle for “pretty good” in Dressage or movements from their horses. Our goal it to play up there, we need capable horses to do that. Maybe we will make it. At least you aim for it! None of the Multiples folks go out expecting to get anything less than First Place!!

GOODHORS
What we were told by higher level Multiples drivers, was that Standardbreds take too much work to get needed excellent results in Dressage. They are lovely horses, but long, lean body style is against them.

Both Standardbreds and Orlovs, are built for speed, bred the fastest to the fastest, got the great speed they are known for. This speed is attained going in straight moving ways, not bending, flexing, allows the huge overreach of the driving rear end. The best ones have a more straight, even rigid, spinal carriage in motion.

Stiff spine makes it VERY hard for them to be bending, flexing, while going forward. Not bred for bendable body. I have huge respect for the drivers who gave us this opinion. Heck, one of them showed an Appy at the World Pairs and WON!! Not a breed prejudice thing. Those guys will drive what wins.

So even though Standardbreds are very capable in pulling carriages, often kindly horses, very available, they take a lot of personal work, to get bendable. You must continue to work on the Dressage aspects, to keep them capable of scoring reasonably. I don’t know any who score VERY well, but could be missing some good ones. If horse is your one and only, has you to put in the extra time and work, he might be one like WA talks about. Most Standardbreds just can’t get the good scores. They are just not capable of moving the way judges want to see, not his fault, but his speed breeding.

More of the Driver needing to pick the correct body style, able to do what you want. Driving Standardbreds would seem to be a “natural” in CDE, but they are far from the most common breed used. If a horse can’t do a good scoring Dressage, it will hurt in the other sections. Raw speed is not really that beneficial on Marathon, since too early is penalized like being too late. Horse needs to be bendable for Hazards and Cones, so his job is easier.
GOODHORS

Wow GoodHors I totally dissagree with you as to standardbreds and dressage. If you are talking about Standardbreds off the track, and are retraining them to be ridden, yes you may have to work much harder to get an older horse to become more bendable. But a youngster Standardbred who has not gone to the track is a completely different story. Even so,we had adopted a standardbred off the track, and he could turn on a dime, jump up and buck and twist like a snake. He was so bendable in fact he was too much for what we wanted and we gave him back to the adoption program. We adopted another one at four months from a racing breeding farm and trained him to carriage drive. Guess what, he didn’t like to drive! As a four year old we gave him to someone else in the program that rode dressage, and within a month he was bringing home ribbons!
What a shame that people write off a breed as “unbendable”, when there are so many loving Standardbreds doomed to go from the track to the Amish, where they are just a car to someone, and could instead be adopted into a loving home as someone’s special horse. If you haven’t been around the Standardbred breed recently, I can tell you that the old “slat sided” Standardbred has been replaced by very Thoroughbred looking Standardbreds, beautiful horses, many also look like Morgans, ours did. Every breed has individuals who are not talented and athletic, but if you are educated and competant as a trainer, you can get most horses to bend. After that, it’s the combination of horse and rider that can continue on to higher levels in a sport, like dressage. As much talk as there is about it, and interest in it, most people who compete in dressage, do so at the lower levels, and never move up to the higher levels. There are many breeds competeing in dressage at lower levels, and they all do well. Don’t write off an entire breed like that. It’s usually the trainer or rider that lacks the knowledge to teach a horse to bend, not that the horse is incaple of it.
Give a horse a break. Standardbreds are willing and eager to please you, they are bred for it, or they wouldn’t be willing to race till they drop.
by the way the website for the Standardbred Retirement Foundation is www.adoptahorse.org Go down the home page and see what today’s Standardbred can do, and how versatile they are, and how gorgeous they look.
IMADRIVER

[ImaDriver]

Breed Choices? Financial Choices? Individual Choices

Goodhors, I agree that in many ways certain breeds are looked on as “superior” because they are seen in the show ring winning. All horses have the same parts, all can get out of their own way, especially when running from something that frightens them. Because man has breed certain physical characteristics into them over time, they have been separated into individual breeds.
As to the differences in breeds today, man has created in the recent past horses that no longer bear much resemblance to what they were originallly bred for. Breeders are breeding away from what is sensible to what wins! The illustrius Warm Bloods of today came from horses meant to haul heavy loads with heavy primitive wooden carts, plow a field, and still be able to be ridden to town or hunted off of. Now however they are much finer boned, and maybe not quite so placid as they once where. Still, they fit well into many of today’s sports that demand good bone, good body, and a calm temperment. Most breeds started that way also, including our American breeds, but all have changed over the last 100 years to meet changing tastes.
However, the European breeds, have had a much longer history than our American breeds, and Europe has a well established very long history ( see Spanish Riding School) with Dressage. Dressage is the basis for establishing balance and self carriage, needed for both ridden and driven dressage. Most European horses have had a basic dressage education, because dressage is so ingrained into the horse industry, that horse there are used first for dressage, then sold into other disciplines.
Combined Driving only started here in the US in the early 70’s. Many of the top drivers have, and are, buying driving horses for multiples (pairs and four in hands) from Europe because the horses there have already completed their dressage usefullness, and are then sold as driving horses. If you can afford it, why not buy a horse from Europe where there are so many horses that look alike and are trained alike? And are already trained for Prix St George?
We don’t have such a huge dressage industry here in America that we have “left over” top level dressage horses. Over there they do, because Dressage is a huge industry in Europe. However I and many others don’t have the pocket book to import Warm Bloods from Europe. Tucker Johson, Chester Weber, etc, can afford it, and do. They can buy a block of stalls in a plane and get 3 to six imports, work with them and keep what they like and sell the rest here in America for a good price. Why should they advise you to buy a Standardbred or Saddlebred when they are so invested in Warm Bloods?
I have no envy, only respect, and am grateful that I get to see the best of the best compete at the CDE’s I also compete in. I have spoken with and been advised by Bill Long, Chester Weber, Sharon Chesson and other top level drivers, all who have seen my Saddlebred and liked her very much.
In reality, almost any horse can be a driving horse, and any breed, as 100 years ago almost every horse was driven and ridden. Only the more monied families could afford a horse just for riding. Most families needed a horse to work as a driving horse because they were the trucks of their day, and that’s how they made their living, farming and trucking their goods to market.
Because of the ability of some people to afford these great dressage trained warm bloods, it has become the breed every one looks to, and wants, to drive and to be seen driving.
This has influenced drivers, especiallly those new to the sport, because that is what they see winning.
Not everyone needs to drive to win, many people could use Standardbreds from off the track, but because they are seen as only horses for the track or for the Amish, no one even considers their usefullness, because no one wants to be “seen” driving a Standardbred. I have driven Standardbreds, I have seen them winning at Gladstone, Garden State, The Laurels, and many other shows. Carl Furst won many of our top shows with his Standardbred mare, including the above named shows.
But let’s face it, if you have the money, why not get a more respected breed?
I understand it, wish I could afford it, but in the meantime, I am finding that not only our Standardbreds, but our American Saddlebreds (also sold to the Amish because there is no other market for them) and my latest most talented, loyal and fiercely competitve combined driving horse is a Saddlebred. Most Saddlebreds look like todays Holsteiners, except their tails have been bent in the style of their breed.( most tails go back to a normal position after they are no longer kept in a tail set) Talk about a breed that has been wrongly prejudiced against, the American Saddlebred takes alot of heat, yet forward thinking horse people are seeing this breed as a great Dressage mount, (see Harry Callahan) as well as a great carriage driving breed. Mixed with Thoroughbred lines, as well of breeds of the time(Naraganset) the American breeds diversified into 3 breeds, the Morgan, the Saddlebred, and the Standardbred.
I have heard all the comments about Standardbreds not being able to bend, not having the depth and stamina for other diciplines, except what they are bred for. Hello, calm enough to withstand todays road noise?, stamina enough to trot 20 miles a day with a full load and a heavy Amish wooden Family Wagon?? Is this not an excellent recomendation for a driving horse? or any other discipline? I understand that today’s Standardbred is not bred for depth and width of body, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t individuals that can be trained for something new. Maybe people like Goodhors do not want to put the time and training into an animal, Goodhors wants faster gratification. But there are people who want to, and are capable of, training a horse to bend, young or old horses. There’s a horse for every saddle, or every cart.
If there was a market for Standardbred horses to be used for other sports, they would start breeding them more to please buyers instead of breeding them just for racing and then throwing them away. Which goes back to the fact that if breeders want certain abilities in their breed, and breed for it, within a few generations they can usually have it, and the Europeans have done that. Europe has had quite a head start on us here in America, because America itself is only about 200 years old, and Europe is ancient.
I wish more American horse people would start giving their own American breeds a chance to prove they can also be good at different discplines, and maybe then the Standardbreds won’t be bred only for racing, and then sold to the only market that will take them, the Amish. I have respect for all breeds, but I can recognize that many individuals within those breeds could do well with the right training, even if they aren’t from Europe.
I am weary of people blowing off entire breeds because of someone elses opinions. Many breeds have become “fashionable” to own, and the fashion changes faster than some breeds, and most people, can keep up with it.
Everyone starts somewhere, and if a beginner driver, or an experienced one, wants a nice horse that doesn’t break the budget, I couldn’t recommend the American Saddlebred and the Standardbred any higher, as the Amish prove every day how brave, loyal, and willing these breeds are, to pound down the highways and byways pulling their families safely.
Goodhors, I guess we will agree to disagree. I respect your knowledge, and your opinion, but I think that although I listen to successful drivers and try to learn from them, it doesn’t mean that I can’t learn for myself also, and encourage others keep an open mind when choosing a breed, because their is a breed to fit every budget and every level of experience.

[pricestory]

Wow. You guys are both very well informed and knowledgeable and write beautifully. I can’t believe I’m going to even try to follow you two.
I do think you are, in part, talking about 2 different things.
There are many of us that will never be upper level drivers. Lack of time, money, energy and desire all go into that. We all have different asperations and goals.
My first driving horse was a STB from an adoption agency. He was a $20, 000 stud fee, $10,000 yearling, $800 adoption fee horse whose father was the famous Superbowl, a trotting triple crown winner. In my 3 yrs of driving him, no one ever guessed he was a STB. Everyone guessed he was a WB or a Morgan cross. There was nothing about the way he was put together that said he couldn’t do dressage. I got him at 3 after only 3 races. Ridden, he was relatively easy to get on the aids and bend. In harness, it was much more difficult. I was a beginner driver and he was a perfect teacher for me. He was as bomb proof as they come. We did CDE at training level and learned the game. When I was ready to move on, I sold him to a great home, to be a pleasure driving horse, for a lady who wanted something safe, and didn’t want to compete.
Not everyone who drives wants to go to the upper levels. There is plenty of room for STB in the world of driving that doesn’t involve Amish and Advanced CDE.

[LostFarmer]

Experience is a great teacher but only a fool learns in no other way.

It costs the same to feed, shoe, vet, and train a horse regardless of the abilities. Why make a horse out of something that it isn’t bred to excel at? Because we can? Just because we can does not mean that we should.

I can milk a beef cow and there are some that would even be worth milking but why throw out hundreds of years of selective breeding? Try making a bird dog out of a heeler. Better yet try making a herding dog out of a lab. Some might actually make it to an ammy level but go to a hunting trial or a stock dog trial and if there is one dog outside of the norm I will faint on the spot. Ever see a shire in the Kentucky Derby? How about a TB in a pulling match? There might on a rare level be an individual that crosses over disciplines but it is the exception not the rule.

To those that want to continue to miscast their horse have fun and enjoy the challenge. As for me, I will select for those that actually are bred for the job.

LF

[ImaDriver]

Thank you for your kind words Pricestory. I agree with you. I also agree with Lost Farmer. I have been a dog show person for a great part of my life, and understand your dog analogies. I understand that breeds are bred towards a purpose, but many breeds today have been bred away from that purpose, and not always with the best results. I remember when a Quarter Horse was short so you could work fixing a ranch fence where getting on and off a short horse was better than a 17 hand one when you were getting on and off it forty times or more in a day. But now they are on average 16 hands and higher. Crossed with Thoroughbred Blood they look more like a Thoroughbred than the original Quarter Horse Type. If I was buying a horse for what it is bred for Lost Farmer, and I wanted a carriage driving horse, I would be better off buying a horse bred to pull a cart like the Standardbred or the Saddlebred, as well as some of the WarmBlood breeds. If dressage is your priority, a horse that already has proven itself in dressage is of course the best choice, but it doesn’t negate the fact that there are other breeds that could also do it well, if trained well. Looking in today’s horse magazines I am seeing both Shires and Percherons advertising themselves as “Sport Horses”. I have witnessed people breeding lighter boned and more lighter boned Haflingers, so that except for color, I would almost not know it was a full Haflinger, because they wanted to be competitve in Combined Driving. Every breed’s future is in the hands of the people who breed them. But most do not breed to lose money, so they breed for what sells, to who is willing to pay the most. Right now the Warn Blood breeds dominate the market, and deservedly so, but it does not mean that over time who is buying can change. For the few brave and loyal souls who still breed dogs back into their pedigree to preserve what the breed started out as, and the horse breeder who still wants their draft breed to stay the way it is I salute you, as I believe that also. But the Knights who originally rode those drafts to tilt at opponents, may be surprised at todays draft. Will Rogers would probably laugh at a 17 hand Quarterhorse. But there are many Quarter Horses ridden in lower levels of dressage, and many breeders willing to sell to buyers like that. If a breed can grow into another discipline, why should we say it shouldn’t? Breeders can breed different strains to please different buyers. If a life can be lived in a new viable way for a horse, who are we to hold it back? A horse should be evaluated for what it is capable of, not just what it’s breed was bred for. They all should have value, for different reasons, and different buyers.

[goodhors]

[QUOTE=ImaDriver;2866528]
I understand that today’s Standardbred is not bred for depth and width of body, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t individuals that can be trained for something new.

Maybe people like Goodhors do not want to put the time and training into an animal, Goodhors wants faster gratification[/QUOTE]

ImaDriver, this is all I kept of the long and involved post. I never said Standardbreds could not be trained for other jobs. I did say they were perhaps not the best choice for CDE. The whole discussion STARTED with CDE and horses to use in it. I said other nice things about them, other breeds in various posts.

Every breed is not suitable for every kind of horse competition, ridden or driven.

Then there is the part about my “faster gratification” and not wanting to put training time in on horses!! I about fell down laughing on that one. Yep, we hustle them right thru the training process, from foal to driving horse who starts his work life in riding at age 4 or 5, then on to Driving training. That little foal I planned and bred for. Then after he IS DRIVING, that wasted year of just showing him the ropes of group travel, “sleep-overs” at the Competitions we have dropped back a level or two, so he can learn about Hazards, cheering crowds, all that petty stuff the CDE horse needs to know. I now have about seven? years in him?? Yep, we just FLY thru training on each and every one we breed and raise for the Team.

Maybe I SHOULD get my husband a set of imported Sporthorses like Chester and Tucker drive! Sure would speed things up having trained, upper level Dressage horses to use! Buy a Dressage rider to keep them in shape between competitions. Right, we can do that just after we win the Lotto!

While you give a lot of breed history, the animals we see now, are not those horses. Expectations have changed in work, what horse needs to do to be considered successful. Comparing Standardbreds and WBs of those older times, is pretty useless, since those old styles are not what we see now. Same with Saddlebreds and the horses who made that breed. I REALLY DO NOT think the breeders of above horses, will change body styles now, to suit driving wishes!!

I started this as a CDE oriented thread, while you keep going off on some tangent about how other breeds are not fairly treated. If those other breeds were as skilled at learning Dressage, ridden or driven, as the ones competing now, they would be much more common. Cobs, pony breeds, crossbred horses, imports, everything equine, are all being shown, getting their chance to show their skills in CDE. Folks who wish to play at CDE take notice of animals that impress them with presence, skills on course, ability to do the requests of the Competition. In many cases, those animals are also the winners. This SEEMS to show these horses are the most capable of winning, in these kinds of competitions. Most folks compete to have fun at their level, do plan to win at least now and then as they gain skill.

I do believe most Driving folks are willing to put in the time needed, for gaining a horse who will work with them. What they don’t want to do is put time in on an animal who can not do what driving “requests” they have. Many are like myself, unwilling to re-do a horse, put up with the holes he comes with from previous life. With my young horse, I am not having to “fix him/her” as we progress. He doesn’t have problems. My horse time is limited, I want to have fun, progress him during that time.

To me, the “used horse” has more baggage than I want to deal with, mentally and often physically. I HAVE put in time re-training the cheap ones in the past, NOT fun. Usually plain hard work. I did it because then, such horses were all I could afford. I don’t have to do that anymore!! We love the kindness of our chosen horses, who don’t have “issues” to fix. Maybe I am into “faster gratification”, didn’t know it!!

Like LF and his dog comparison, you find the breed that does best at the jobs dog needs to do. Labs hunt, love jumping in cold water to fetch ducks over and over, can be a real pain near a flock of sheep or cattle. Heelers, Border Collies go silly with no livestock to work, they NEED a job to be happy.

My present horses fit a body style that allows them to bend easily, collect, move with ground covering stride, have the brains to easily accept varied training, not get stupid if we should make a mistake in competitions. Big enough to manage the required weight that Teams must pull. They stay sound, get along with each other, like being with us. We pick with “Form to Function” as our ideal. For us they are wonderful, to others they may not be the perfect choice. Good thing there are lots of animal styles to choose from!

I am done on this “best choice CDE horse” posting. You are not discussing, just going in your own direction.

[ImaDriver]

Ignorance is Bliss?

"To me, the “used horse” has more baggage than I want to deal with, mentally and often physically. I HAVE put in time re-training the cheap ones in the past, NOT fun. Usually plain hard work. I did it because then, such horses were all I could afford. I don’t have to do that anymore!! We love the kindness of our chosen horses, who don’t have “issues” to fix. Maybe I am into “faster gratification”, didn’t know it!! "

Goodhors you allude to the fact that cheap horses have issues. You know some warmbloods have issues too, but in Europe they just eat them instead. Horse meat is in the food chain in Europe. Horses with Issues just dissappear there.
Here in America I do not think all cheap horses have issues. I just know that alot of talented kind good horses that only needed a break have been sold at New Holland and ended up as meat anyway. I guess it’s all so silly to you. I hoped I was talking to someone who wanted a discussion on finding horses suitable to CDE, and I think Standardbreds and Saddlebreds should be considered, because they have the ability to do it. Your comments that assume if a horse isn’t expensive that it’s no good because of training problems or issues are untrue. What is true is that these are the sort of unkind comments formulated from your opinion that only an expensive horse is worthwhile perpetuates these horses not to be fairly evaluated as a prospect. I guess ignorance is bliss. However with 2 dear friends running 2 major rescue efforts, I can’t afford your ignorance. Many of these horses get into a situation by just bad luck, through no fault of their own. They have no issues whatsoever, except they will be stuck there in a rescue, because people with “opinions” tell others not to bother with them.
Since my disagreement with your opinion is being labeled by you as “tangents” I’m sure Goodhors hasn’t read this far! Hope not to have stretched you attention span, Have a nice and Healthy Holiday Season. Does Scroog do That? Oh Yeah, after he changes his ways!

[Ashemont]

WHOA!

ImaD I see you are a Greenie so maybe you haven’t noticed but the Driving Forum is a very GENTEEL one. There have been some heated discussions but posters always remain civil and do not attach each other personally. When they do the rest of us tune out.

I thought this would be an interesting thread since we have raised warmbloods for over 20 years and have actually bred THREE licensed stallions, two of whom have gone FEI. The third we gelded and he is now my husband’s driving horse. We totally believe in letting our horses tell us what they want to do because it’s so much easier on everyone… and also tends to be much more successful (I’ve got a whole roomful of Championship ribbons and trophies to attest to this).

When I picked out my driving pony I selected one that had the movement, overstride and schwung that I would look for in a warmblood. Maggie’s success speaks for itself. So to me it simply does not make sense to, as others have said, try to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. I’m an old lady and just don’t have enough time for that sort of thing

To those of you who have posted so eloquently here, thank you. I’ve learned a lot :yes:

[War_Admiral]

While I can see where Goodhors is coming from, I would like to point out that PART of what she is saying is that a lot of pro trainers simply don’t want to put in the time/effort required to retrain a beastie if it’s never going to be of international caliber.

That’s fiiiiiiiiiiine by me; it leaves nicer cheap prospects for the rest of us! :D:lol: :yes: Quite honestly, as a trainer, patience is very much my strong point and I deeply enjoy (re)training - I enjoy it far more than I enjoy competing. I just enjoy fooling around with them at home to see what cool things we can learn to do. So if it takes me 8 years to get one civilized, hey fine, whatever. But you can’t take that view if you (a) need to turn a profit or (b) desire to get into the show ring fast.

BUT I also think that in the final analysis a good horse is a good horse, regardless of breed. Conformation for the job at hand is the key.

If I were looking for an STB driving prospect, I’d be looking along these lines. (Not my horse - just found him on a quick Google! :D) OK, neck is too short and maybe too upright, hard to tell, but WITH appropriate, patient (re)training, that would look pretty whizzy in anybody’s turnout!

I think another issue that needs to be taken into account is to acknowledge that in driven dressage, there is NOT yet the need for the flamboyant motion there is nowadays in ridden dressage. Anybody remember Fred Merriam’s high-scoring dressage drive at the last WEG? Quietly correct, absolutely meticulously precise in every detail, but flamboyant & showbizzy, it was NOT. It was simply correct dressage. Which you can practice with any horse.

[Thomas_1]

What an absolutely excellent thread and I am in absolute accord with everything that Goodhors said. Superb points well made. And then summed up soooo succinctly and simply by LostFarmer.

I learnt from other threads posted on this forum though, that some folks do not begin to understand type and purpose and have a rather curious approach to seeing any hint or suggestion that their chosen breed might not be best able to do some well as some sort of personal attack! Remember the thread on t/b’s and my assertion that they don’t make the best driving horses … and despite the fact they’re my number one favourite breed AND I was stupid enough to drive them successfully there were folks who insisted that here was a breed that needed “defending” . Now in that case the t/b breed was “defended” by folks who were not experienced nor knowledgeable successful competive drivers.
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2490595&highlight=thoroughly+blood+bred#post2490595

[QUOTE=ImaDriver;2867192]
You know some warmbloods have issues too, but in Europe they just eat them instead. Horse meat is in the food chain in Europe. Horses with Issues just dissappear there. [/QUOTE] Get your facts right! The UK do not have a horse meat trade and never have had and neither have many other countries in mainland Europe.

Then horses don’t just “disappear”. EVERY equid (horse, pony or donkey - even in rescue establishements) in every country affiliated to the EEC has a passport with total traceability.

you might want to read this for further information and education:
http://www.themanestreet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48466&highlight=passport

Here in America I do not think all cheap horses have issues

Furthermore there’s plenty of terrible horses owned and bred by folks who know no better in Europe, just the same as in the USA: and they’re cheap and generally they’ve got issues (no matter where in the world they are): “cheap” implies selling below the market rate and there’s no such thing as a bargain. Trust me, if it sounds too good to be true, then it is to good to be true.

Your comments that assume if a horse isn’t expensive that it’s no good because of training problems or issues are untrue.

Cheap often stares you in the face as unsound, poor condition, poor health but its ordinarily poor conformation, unproven, untrained. Cheap often means been owned by someone who doesn’t have the wit and wherewithall to do the animal justice and hence has invested NOTHING into it which needs to be recovered. So NO training, no schooling, NOTHING.

I hoped I was talking to someone who wanted a discussion on finding horses suitable to CDE, and I think Standardbreds and Saddlebreds should be considered, because they have the ability to do it.
And that is precisely what you got. However I suspect that what you actually were looking for was some sort of purile “yayyyy go for it, Standardbreds or whatever make great CDE horses”. Experience and knowledge though has come to the fore - as it often does on this forum.

If you want to compete successfully then you’d be best advised NOT to chose a saddlebred. Or come to that a standard bred. If you don’t mind just travelling round the country and paying entry fees then heck, please yourself what you want to do.

What is true is that these are the sort of unkind comments formulated from your opinion that only an expensive horse is worthwhile perpetuates these horses not to be fairly evaluated as a prospect. I guess ignorance is bliss.
I presume that is a condition that you are comfortable with and recognise. And until you actually come to appreciate the facts and that means heeding what those with experience and knowledge say you’ll stay in that state.

You’ve not had any “unkind” comments here. You’ve had FACTS. The FACT a standardbred is not ordinarily considered to be the horse of choice for CDE is not an insult or unkind. Its just a fact. Get over it!

However with 2 dear friends running 2 major rescue efforts, I can’t afford your ignorance. Many of these horses get into a situation by just bad luck, through no fault of their own. They have no issues whatsoever, except they will be stuck there in a rescue, because people with “opinions” tell others not to bother with them.
I’m not sure why you’ve made a quantum leap from talking about driving breed horses to talking about rejected cheap pitiful animals. If you’re suggesting that CDE carriage drivers are in some way responsible for that and because of their ignorance, then this must rate as the 2007 winner for being illogical falacy.

Since my disagreement with your opinion is being labeled by you as “tangents” I’m sure Goodhors hasn’t read this far! Hope not to have stretched you attention span, Have a nice and Healthy Holiday Season. Does Scroog do That? Oh Yeah, after he changes his ways!
Happy Christmas to you too

[War_Admiral]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;2867347]

If you want to compete successfully then you’d be best advised NOT to chose a saddlebred.[/QUOTE]

Ahem. With all due respect, Thomas, could you please cite in detail the extent of your hands-on experience with American Saddlebreds? And the detailed reasoning behind your advice?

And then you might want to do a Google for Misdee Wrigley, who indeed has successfully competed Saddlebred multiples in coaching.

Again - very much like TBs - if you pick the right prospect there is absolutely no reason not to drive an ASB. It is, after all, what ASBs were bred for.

You seriously trying to tell me you would NOT want to consider this horse if you were looking for a top-level driven dressage prospect? (Not that you could pry him out of the cold, dead hands of his current owners, given that he’s fixing to start competing internationally soon! :yes:)

[Ginger]

I think Thomas is confusing Saddlebred with Standardbred. Many do who are not familiar with both breeds. I would agree that Standardbreds are not upper level driving horses - and I have soon a few who physically couldn’t do even training level. But Saddlebreds and Saddlebred-crosses, provided their backs aren’t low, make excellent driving horses.

[Happy_Feet]

I think Lost Farmer sumed it up very well! It cost the same no matter if you have the best horse, or the worst one. The daily bills are all about the same. Finding a horse suitable to what your goals are is the most important thing. It is much more fun to put your time and money into something that is fun and enjoyable, something that is built and bred for it’s job is enjoyable.

I will say though, assess each horse as an individual, you never know where you’ll find a great horse. Just because a horse has a large price tag doesn’t make him the right horse for you, and just because it comes with a designer lable, doesn’t make it more suitable either!

My farrier told me a story about a client who imported a warmblood from Holland (about 20 years ago) and had lameness problems from the day she had the horse. The farrier had a Dutch man as an apprentice for awhile, and while shoeing this womans horse she asked the apprentice “Well what do you do with this horse?” And he replied " Ma’am, We’d eat this horse".
Americans are gettign smarter about buying crap in Europe, but there still is alot of problems (in the US and Abroad), on the market waiting for someone to buy it. Buyer beware, have an excellent trainer look at and help you in deciding on your next horse (wether here or abroad, and have a VERY thorough vetting done, with a very good vet (most people should be sending the xrays to BIG named clinics with very good reputations)

Also if someone wants to train a breed for a discipline the horse is not bred for, find someone who has that breed doing what you want to do with the horse, and have them to help you find a horse in that breed. They found one, know what to look for, what to watch out for. There is a trainer in KY (I think) that is known for having a lovely Saddlebred she will be showing Grand Prix dressage, he is the first of his breed to make it to GP. She has others of the breed she does well in open dressage shows, If I HAD to have a saddlebred, I’d go to her since she has some expierence with the breed doing what I’d like to. But as a side note: only one saddlebred has made it to GP - That should be a headsup as to how difficult they are to make dressage horses - there are quite a few Arabians that have competed in GP, QH, TB’s but only one Saddlebred (and he hasn’t made it yet! LOL)

[War_Admiral]

Not fair to compare the NUMBER of ASBs to the number of TBs/QH competing in dressage.

The last statistic I saw, ASHA was registering in the neighborhood of 2200 ASBs a year. Compare that to the many many thousands of TBs and QH being put on the ground and realize that of course there are going to be more TB and QH competing successfully - in any discipline.

[Renae]

@War Admiral;2867430

And then you might want to do a Google for Misdee Wrigley, who indeed has successfully competed Saddlebred multiples in coaching.

Just to point out I don’t believe Misdee Wrigley has ever had a Saddlebred coaching team. As far as I know she started with Friesians, then got Hackney Horses and now has Dutch Harness Horses for coaching and does combined driving events with her Dutch Harness Horses. She of course also has American Sadlebred show horses.

And as far as coaching events go I have been told by several coaching people that Friesians are the beginner breed, the breed you start with, but if you want to top notch competitive coaching team you get Hackney Horses or Dutch Harness Horses.

At the lower levels in any sport I htink there is a place for all kinds, but if you wish to be comeptitive you do need to seriously think about what it will take to get there. I do concede to goodhors that perhaps the Standardbred is not the ideal national/international levl CDE horse. But for how many drivers is that a realistic goal? On the one hand you want to have somehting suitable, but on the other hand how pratical is buying an international advanced level quality horse, in both physical ability and temperament, if you are going to mainly recreational drive and do 1 or 2 events a year?

[War_Admiral]

[QUOTE=Renae;2867608]
Just to point out I don’t believe Misdee Wrigley has ever had a Saddlebred coaching team. As far as I know she started with Friesians, then got Hackney Horses and now has Dutch Harness Horses for coaching and does combined driving events with her Dutch Harness Horses. She of course also has American Sadlebred show horses.[/QUOTE]

I know she’s doing Hackney horses now, but I thought she had shown a 4 of ASBs at some point?? But I can’t remember who told me that. It was before I got re-interested in them, so maybe in the 1970s-80s??

[Renae]

[QUOTE=War Admiral;2867615]
I know she’s doing Hackney horses now, but I thought she had shown a 4 of ASBs at some point?? But I can’t remember who told me that. It was before I got re-interested in them, so maybe in the 1970s-80s??[/QUOTE]

There was an article in one of the carriage magazines a few years back detailing how she surprisingly inherited her grandmothers carriage collection that had been at a museum, she didnt’ even know that it was there and the family still owned it, and the musuem did not want the carriages anymore so wanted to return them to the family and that is how she got intersted in carriage driving. Of course we are speaking hereof a wonderful family that has been supportive of the American equine scene for several generations, not only Saddlebreds and carriage driving, but race horses and Arabians

[Happy_Feet]

[QUOTE=War Admiral;2867565]
Not fair to compare the NUMBER of ASBs to the number of TBs/QH competing in dressage.

The last statistic I saw, ASHA was registering in the neighborhood of 2200 ASBs a year. Compare that to the many many thousands of TBs and QH being put on the ground and realize that of course there are going to be more TB and QH competing successfully - in any discipline.[/QUOTE]

That is true but the fact that there will only be one (who hasn’t yet to go down the centerline at GP) is still not a great adivertisment for the breed.

I would like to say one other thing. Temperment is in my mind the most important thing. I know the “special” top horses in any discipline are often not the easy ones, you want that sparkle. Most people even ones that have high ambitions can’t handle or deal with those “special” horses. When I look for a horse for myself or a student I buy the temperment first. Yes depending on the budget, conformation and ability is very important, but temperment can and often does make up for any weaknesses in a horses conformation when they LOVE what they do. You can have the best built horse but if it doesn’t love it’s job in life, its just as big of a disapointment as one that isn’t made to do the work.

[War_Admiral]

This is very true. Temperament does come second to conformation in my book, but only in the broadest possible context, e.g. not trying to use a draft for CDE’s, not trying to use a TB/ASB for heavy pulling! I don’t want to end up with a horse I cannot use for my discipline - so esp. with the TBs and ASBs I loff, I’m looking for back/hind end strength which can often be lacking in both breeds. So long as they are physically up to the job, anything else can be trained into them IF they have the desire.

[HackneyHorseDriver]

[QUOTE=Renae;2867639]
There was an article in one of the carriage magazines a few years back detailing how she surprisingly inherited her grandmothers carriage collection that had been at a museum, she didnt’ even know that it was there and the family still owned it, and the musuem did not want the carriages anymore so wanted to return them to the family and that is how she got intersted in carriage driving. Of course we are speaking hereof a wonderful family that has been supportive of the American equine scene for several generations, not only Saddlebreds and carriage driving, but race horses and Arabians :)[/QUOTE]

Yes the carriages are in a lovely carriage house at Misdees farm, Hillcroft in Paris, KY. I have visited several times and also enjoyed reviewing her stallions and stock. Misdee started out driving Freisians with a coach, then moved to imported Hackney horses, she is now showing a four of Dutch Harness horses. Hillcroft is also home to her string of Saddlebred show horses and Hackney horse breeding operation. She recently also had an open barn through the CAA I believe this past summer. Not to be missed if your in the area.
Denise