Well written Goodhors and Lostfarmer.
Thank you for putting it in writing.
I agree that if you want to be competitive at the top levels of a sport, you should buy a horse that’s built for the job. But the vast, vast majority of riders and drivers don’t have high level aspirations (except maybe in fantasyland).
Like me for example. I have one horse that I use for everything. Jumping, dressage, cross country, working cattle, western pleasure, driving, camping, and anything else I can think of. He does everything well at the lower levels. He’ll do CDE someday when I have the money for it.
Point being, I will probably be limited by my own skill level before I’m limited by my horse. Sure, it would be easier to buy a specialized horse for each discipline I do. So what. I’d rather learn how to maximize the potential of the horse I have. Especially if we’re talking about dressage. For me, the point of dressage is to train the horse to be the best it can be, not to go out and win on an easy horse. (But, that’s just me, and it probably explains why I’m not competing at the top levels of anything. :lol:)
ETA: By the way, my horse is half ASB. 
Thank you to all! I think this is a very worthwhile topic of discussion.
I would just like to add that within any breed there are anomalies. That odd individual that excels where it ought not. Those individuals may not conform to the breed standard and by that fact they are able to shine in say, dressage or CDEs.
I think you start out ahead of the game going with an even mediocre example of a breed that has a history of success in the arena of your choice. Reinventing the wheel seems like an inefficient use of your time, money and energy.
Driving my Saddlebred at The Laurels 2005. Her first season out and her fifth CDE. We showed our Cheval Canadien last year and this year we stopped to break and train our newest horse, another saddlebred. Both my Saddlebreds were bought from Kentucky breeders, they were not rejects with issues, I chose the breed because of their lightness in the bit, the ability for self carriage, conformation and beauty. Their affection and loyalty was a bonus. http://www.combineddriving.com/images/357_Stella.jpg
No one is arguing the suitability of ASB’s to harness. But I’ve gone back and read this thread twice and I’m CERTAIN it started as a discussion of breeds suitable to CDE’s.
Cream rises to the top and when ASB’s start showing up and winning at the FEI level they will gain the respect that you are so convinced they deserve. Until that day, you and ASB fanciers can argue the point til the cows come home. The proof is in the pudding and competing and WINNING is how other “more suitable” breeds have earned their status.
Good luck to all. And happy holidays! :yes:
And MY point is that when experienced drivers like Thomas start making blanket statements such as “This is not a CDE-capable breed”, when they have never even SEEN an ASB up close and personal (no offense, Thomas, but this is a fact - you know it and I know it - you didn’t even know what they were when you first started posting here), it pretty much guarantees that nobody new to the sport will consider what is, in my opinion, a worthy horse IF you can find the right one.
“I’ve never seen it, therefore it must not exist” is not a persuasive argument to me, no matter who makes it.
I’m totally confused. Who brought ASB’s into the topic, anyway? I can’t find a reference to Saddlebred’s anywhere in the first post - only STANDARDBREDS.
Yes, INDIVIDUALS of any breed may excel at a “not the norm” discipline for that particular breed, but oftentimes that is because of not only the horse’s unique qualities (which, by the way, may mean the horse is off-type for the breed) but also a doggedly determined owner who is driven to prove a point.
I honestly don’t understand why there is any need to argue the point of suitability. Just go out and show and ride and drive and enjoy your horses. This is supposed to be FUN, remember?
I think we are seeing a difference in mindset, here. There are people who are focused on the sport, and people who are focused on the horse. (The two are not mutually exclusive, but rather a sort of continuum.)
People who are focused on the sport will pick the most suitable horse for the sport, train dilligently for the sport, and go out and compete and win in their chosen sport. I think that kind of dedication is admirable.
The people who focus on the horse will pick the horse most suited to their own personal ideals, train dilligently, and go out and do their thing. That’s admirable, too.
IME, trying to convince the latter group of people that they “ought” to have a certain breed just won’t work. The breed they have chosen suits them for their own personal reasons, which may or may not match the ideals for the sport – but the sport may not be their highest priority. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. People pick horses for 9872375 different reasons, none of which are intended to offend the competitive types.
I believe that if you’re shopping for a CDE horse (or any horse), you should work out which sort of person you are beforehand and shop accordingly.
Sithly, you are being over-the-top too rational!! I also happen to agree with you.
[QUOTE=Sithly;2868470]
I think we are seeing a difference in mindset, here.[/QUOTE]
… and different definitions of “suitable”
There’s a lot of room between capable of competing and capable of winning at the highest level. Neither is “wrong” - they’re just different.
.
[QUOTE=War Admiral;2867430]
And then you might want to do a Google for Misdee Wrigley, who indeed has successfully competed Saddlebred multiples in coaching.[/QUOTE]
Now I mentioned standardbreds and saddlebreds and that was specifically in the context to responding to a previous poster.
However if you really do mean coaching as opposed to CDE then what does that have to do with suitability for competitive CDE??
You seriously trying to tell me you would NOT want to consider this horse if you were looking for a top-level driven dressage prospect?
In all honesty, No I wouldn’t.
But remember we were talking about competitive CDE so what does that horse have to do with this topic?
This topic is about breed suitability for competitive work. There’ll always be exceptions but once again you’re kidding yourself if you think they’re the breed of choice to do well at competitive horse driving trials.
[QUOTE=mares tails;2868518]…
There’s a lot of room between capable of competing and capable of winning at the highest level. Neither is “wrong” - they’re just different.
.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely right. One goes to compete and make every effort to win and the other doesn’t mind travelling up and down the country and paying entry fees.
Its always seemed to me that if you are interested in competition then you do everything possible to give yourself a chance of winning.
[QUOTE=Sithly;2868470]
I think we are seeing a difference in mindset, here. There are people who are focused on the sport, and people who are focused on the horse. (The two are not mutually exclusive, but rather a sort of continuum.)
People who are focused on the sport will pick the most suitable horse for the sport, train dilligently for the sport, and go out and compete and win in their chosen sport. I think that kind of dedication is admirable.
The people who focus on the horse will pick the horse most suited to their own personal ideals, train dilligently, and go out and do their thing. That’s admirable, too.
IME, trying to convince the latter group of people that they “ought” to have a certain breed just won’t work. The breed they have chosen suits them for their own personal reasons, which may or may not match the ideals for the sport – but the sport may not be their highest priority. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. People pick horses for 9872375 different reasons, none of which are intended to offend the competitive types.
I believe that if you’re shopping for a CDE horse (or any horse), you should work out which sort of person you are beforehand and shop accordingly.[/QUOTE]
Please re read the original post. Goodhors is talking about very competitive, combined driving horses. I thought that was the purpose of this discussion, and I ws looking forward to it! Oh well.
[QUOTE=mares tails;2868518]
… and different definitions of “suitable”
There’s a lot of room between capable of competing and capable of winning at the highest level. Neither is “wrong” - they’re just different.
.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. 
At the point I’m at now, the latter type of horse would be wasted on me. :lol::lol: That could change in the future … who knows. I doubt I will ever have the competitive drive it takes to get to the highest levels, so my horse shopping decisions are based on lots of other factors instead.
[QUOTE=hitchinmygetalong;2868339]
No one is arguing the suitability of ASB’s to harness. But I’ve gone back and read this thread twice and I’m CERTAIN it started as a discussion of breeds suitable to CDE’s.
Cream rises to the top and when ASB’s start showing up and winning at the FEI level they will gain the respect that you are so convinced they deserve. Until that day, you and ASB fanciers can argue the point til the cows come home. The proof is in the pudding and competing and WINNING is how other “more suitable” breeds have earned their status.
Good luck to all. And happy holidays! :yes:[/QUOTE]
Amen.
I didn’t see the reference WA made to Harry Callahan, who was the ONE GP ASB I was refering to. I would also like to make a point, that just because a horse is showing nationally (throughout the US) at GP (which from what I can see/know) is what is planned for the horse, and showing a horse Internationally at GP is two VERY different things. Showing a horse at a small CDI in the middle of Timbuck Too, is not considered international.
[QUOTE=CDE Driver;2868527]
Please re read the original post. Goodhors is talking about very competitive, combined driving horses. I thought that was the purpose of this discussion, and I ws looking forward to it! Oh well.[/QUOTE]
Probably was the intended purpose, but as usual, the conversation has drifted. shrug It happens. If you have more to say about very competitive combined driving horses, I’m listening.
I understand the discussion is on highly competitve CDE horses. I have way more expierence with dressage horses, and use that knowledge to influence dissisions concerning things like picking suitable horses. I dont’ think CDE is any different than how you’d go about picking a horse for ANY highly competitive discipline. Also it had been brought up as to how stiff and hard they are to teach dressage to - albeit driven dressage - since I know a bit about ridden I took the bait and commented on the aptitude of ASB for dressage.
I guess I wonder what the thread was intended for - general discussion on how to pick suitable horses for your choosen discipline or is someone looking for specific details of what they should be buying?
I guess my comments are coming based on a theory that when you seek out a horse for high level competition, you should be looking for a horse that has a super mind, great conformation, shows great aptitude for what you plan to do with it, with as much training as you can afford. Although you certainly shouldn’t limit your self to any particular breed, you can make some assumptions as to what breeds are most likely to do well. Meaning going to look at a 10 ASB (or other similar breeds) is less of bet (in finding one that is suitable), than say 10 warmbloods, or warmblood crosses, I guess it depends on how much travel $$ your wanting to spend.
And I am totally forgetting that as I preach about how great warmbloods are, I drive Hackney ponies which I don’t think (and certainly if I am wrong correct me as I’d love to know more!) have traditionley done really well in CDE competition. Although when I bought the pony my concern was for a safe and fun driving pony which the family could enjoy, now that I am hooked on CDE’s I guess my ponies are coming along for the ride! Fortunately noth seem fairly well suited to CDE and seem to be doing pretty well. Are we going to Worlds - my hunch in no, but that isn’t really my goal anyway. Now fro someone who really wants to do then they might have sold the Hackneys for something different…
The cost of this sport is so high that if I were to think seriously about competing I would want to get the most capable horse for my dollar.
We have bred and sold international quality warmbloods for over two decades. I always tell prospective buyers that the initial cost of the horse is just the tip of the iceberg and it costs the same amount (often less) to keep a good horse as it does to keep a questionable one. If you are going to pursue a sport why not pick an animal who will not limit you? You never know where it will go and if you put the training into a quality animal you will have a much better market for it should you decide to sell at a later date.
My riding horse has scored 70’s in dressage, won Championships in hand and is so good that the German inspectors have tried to buy her to take back to Germany. She’s expecting a foal next year but will not be re-bred and will most likely only carrying my old but around the back woods a few times a year. But so what? She’s happy. I’m happy. And it’s a lot more fun to ride a real quality horse with outstanding gaits :winkgrin: If I ever do get serious about showing under saddle again, I’ve a got horse who can do well in any company so it makes sense to me to keep her.
Our driving horses are also extremely talented, quality animals. Capable of far more than we will probably do with them. BUT… should a miracle happen and we decide to go to a higher level we won’t need to get another horse/pony. JMO
[QUOTE=hitchinmygetalong;2868339]
Cream rises to the top and when ASB’s start showing up and winning at the FEI level they will gain the respect that you are so convinced they deserve. Until that day, you and ASB fanciers can argue the point til the cows come home. The proof is in the pudding and competing and WINNING is how other “more suitable” breeds have earned their status.
Good luck to all. And happy holidays! :yes:[/QUOTE]
Hello everyone,
Since my horse (Harry Callahan) has been mentioned, I thought I would take this opportunity to respond.
There is one correction, there HAVE been other ASB’s who have made it to Grand Prix Level. Albert Ostermier and his ASB stallion Patriot are one example as is Dr Dale Detrich, a student of Chuck Grant, who had a mare at Grand Prix. (Of course this was some 20 or more years ago). Emma Dye and My Privateer showed at the FEI levels also.
Hilda Gurney’s Fancy Trick, showing and winning at Grand Prix, is Half Saddlebred and I know of several more ASB’s who are showing 3-4th and are knocking on the door of FEI Level’s.
I think the confusion about Harry showing Internationally is a mis-understanding of the terminology of FEI being the “International” levels of Dressage. But certainly I have no intention or aspirations to have my horse compete Internationally. Most certainly he is competitive Regionally, and perhaps at the National level, but NEVER have I thought that he could go International…
Why is there not more ASB’s showing at FEI level? Because it is traditional to show ASB’s Saddle Seat. Not many people are using these horses in the FEI disciplines so there are very few even out there competing. Right now if you look up ASB’s in the USDF All-Breeds program there are 11 horses. Thats right eleven! So there is one Grand Prix horse in there. What is the percentage of other breeds horses who make Grand Prix? (just curious)
Harry’s first show at Grand Prix will be Pine Knoll Spring Show (aka Timbuck Too :D, sorry Happy Feet, I just had to throw that in). His next show will be KDA Spring Dressage show which will be a CDI* this coming year and maybe we will qualify for Devon again next year (Harry qualified to go last year when he showed Prix St. Georges, but I could not justify the travel and expense to show in one class).
So, with the very limited horses out there competing, ASB’s are really nice horses who can do the work. They have 2 things making it VERY hard to see more of them in the FEI Disciplines. The Traditional Saddlebred people, who would rather call the meat man to get rid of their excess stock who won’t work out in their program, and people from other disciplines who refuse to even consider them and who have never seen a really nice ASB and make a blanket statement that all ASB’s are unsuitable for FEI work.
It has been said that the largest demographic group of members in the USDF are Amateur women who show at 2nd level and below.They are the bread and butter of the USDF. I would bet that the largest group of people who compete at CDE’s are at your mid to lower levels too. These are people that the ASB would be perfect for.
Some pics and video’s
My horse Harry schooling the piaffe, passage, and one tempis.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=un5eHWNMl5Y
Albert Ostermaier and his ASB stallion Patriot
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qf-VH6zHEgg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iqSTIjl8N78
Pictures of Singsation, a former Five gaited and Fine Harness horse who is going to be competing in CDE in the spring.
http://www.knightskyefarm.com/KSF/default.asp?id=2&mnu=2
The ASHA does have a video showing a 4 in hand of ASB’s pulling a coach, It was probably from the early 1980’s so I have no idea whose horses they are.
By all means, if you want to compete at the TOP level of your chosen sport, then buy what makes you feel happy, competitve, etc. But please don’t make a blanket statement about our horses and/or try to steer people away from them. Everyone should make up their own mind about what makes them happy.
[QUOTE=lindac;2870193]
Hello everyone,
Since my horse (Harry Callahan) has been mentioned, I thought I would take this opportunity to respond. [/QUOTE] I’ve got confused. Is your horse competing in Combined Driving Events? If so is he at fei level.
And nice horse by the way.
Right now if you look up ASB’s in the USDF All-Breeds program there are 11 horses. Thats right eleven!
Do you mean 11 competing fei CDE?
The ASHA does have a video showing a 4 in hand of ASB’s pulling a coach, It was probably from the early 1980’s so I have no idea whose horses they are.
In the context of this posting, that would be somewhat irrelevent. Coaching is not Horse Driving Trials
By all means, if you want to compete at the TOP level of your chosen sport, then buy what makes you feel happy, competitve, etc. But please don’t make a blanket statement about our horses and/or try to steer people away from them. Everyone should make up their own mind about what makes them happy.
To ignore the fundamentals of breeding for purpose and type seems bizarre and irrational IMO.
Of course folks can make up their own mind what they want, but it would be doing them a disservice if the advice from professionals and those competing with regard to selecting a horse for suitability for Horse Driving Trials was to buy one that “made them happy”
