So… what breeds would one look for to compete successfully at the highest levels of CDE? What horse breeds, and what pony breeds, are the preferred?
Inquiring minds want to know! 
How do YOU choose a breed for CDEs?
:yes::)When someone is deciding which breed to choose for a CDE prospect, what do you think they are basing their choice on? Are they basing it solely on conformation? On movement? Are they looking at statistics and going out and buying a young horse of that breed? Most people that I know do not have the budget to spend between twenty to forty thousand dollars on a CDE horse that already has proven their abilities as an Advanced horse. Being a successful FEI level (Advanced) CDE horse depends not just only on conformation or movement, it also helps to have attitude, the “GO” to be able to be a CDE Advanced horse. Many Preliminary drivers that jumped over to Advanced, found that the further distances proved too much for their Preliminary horse, or the Preliminary horse that excelled in Preliminary lost their fire in Advanced. You can’t “wish” your horse to be an Advanced level horse. Drivers like Scott Monroe were able to step up with their horses, and many of those drivers drive Morgans, like Scott’s Shadow. Morgans happen to be one of, if not the top, of the breeds winning in both Pairs and Singles here in America.
Some breeds, like Friesians and Dutch Harness horses, burn out with their higher leg action over the longer distances.
Since most people who get into driving are usually putting safety first in their choices, we see various breeds being used in CDEs. When they get a good dressage test, and they do well in training level, they move up to Preliminary. However, their good dressage score does not always mean they will win, because many times the calm quiet safe horse, does not always turn into an aggressive hazards horse. Most of the drivers are happy to stay at Preliminary. Many drivers stay at Training level!
We have been showing at Preliminary, and will step up into Advanced. We are experienced and have the qualifications to go Advanced. My plans are to eventually go Pairs, just haven’t found the right match yet. Of my six horses, I found that only my Saddlebred had that fire to want to move on to whatever I asked of her, including moving up to Advanced.
In buying a horse for CDE, whether it is a Gaited breed or not, the other half of the Equation, is the driver’s ambition, and also talent and ability as the Whip to move up to Advanced Level.
As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts, CDEing is new in this country, as compared to Europe. We have a very small piece of the pie as far as the percentage of the horse world that is driving here. The first generation of ADS drivers is now “aging out” and realizing how important it is to start bringing young people into this Sport, so there is a next generation of carriage drivers here. The first driving camps for young drivers was sponsored by the ADS just in 2006.
Hopefully when I get into Advanced and start showing up in the Statistics there, more people will consider a Saddlebred.
Saddlebreds are a great breed for Combined Driving for some important reasons. Fine Harness classes are very prevalent, as in the Hackney horse breed, which keeps conformation as a driving horse high on the list for breeders. Being broken to harness is extremely common in Saddlebred training, almost every Saddlebred is broken to ride and drive by the time it is a 2 year old. Besides Harness driving, gaited training encourages a slight uphill topline, a good layback of shoulder, and a powerful driving hindquarter. A calm, willing work ethic, is what keeps the Saddlebred mentally stable enough to withstand the intense physical training demands, the noise and activity at shows, and the mental ability to enjoy going forward through it all. For those people that consider a Saddlebred a gaited breed, it combines good natural movement plus training to create the high stepping movement one sees when viewing a gaited saddlebred.
This good movement, driving hindquarters, uphill build, and great mindset, makes for a wonderful combined driving prospect. PS: It also makes for a great dressage prospect. For those of you that think a Saddlebred is not deep enough, does not have the strength, physically and mentally, to be a great dressage horse, remember again, that dressage is still relatively new here in America, and breeders have not had the call for either CDEing or Dressage yet, so have not aimed their breeding programs at these sports. Even so, the Saddlebred that is bred today, is already proving that it has what it takes to be an upper level sport horse. In my humble opinion of course!
I don’t bother choosing… because I have no desire to do CDEs.
I could care less about CDEs. Not interested in them. I drive only for my own pleasure, and the pleasure of my guests and friends, and have been doing so since the 1970’s.
Besides, I’d rather jump a horse over obstacles than go charging around them. :yes:
I already know the Welsh (B’s C’s and D’s) are the preferred high level CDE pony. Easy to see why – it’s the same reason why I enjoy driving mine as singles and pairs.
But I’d love to know what breeds dominates the horse field… obviously (as implied by several on this thread) it is NOT Standardbreds or ASBs…yet. :winkgrin:
Lippezzaners, Hanovarian, Dutch Warmbloods, Trakehner, Cleveland Bay, Gelderlanders, Holsteiner, Russian Trotters all immediately spring to mind as being consistently doing well fei.
Or then again you can make a breed up like the famous “Cumberland Cobs” 
Morgans are the most common breed I see, many of the the top drivers here in singles and pairs drive Morgans. Scott Monroe, Fred Mirriam, Lisa Singer, I can’t remember more right now, but Morgans are very popular here on the East Coast. Also a lot of Perceron crosses. In ponies, I do think Welsh dominate, even Welsh crosses.
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;2870283]
I’ve got confused. Is your horse competing in Combined Driving Events? If so is he at fei level.
And nice horse by the way.
Do you mean 11 competing fei CDE?
In the context of this posting, that would be somewhat irrelevent. Coaching is not Horse Driving Trials
To ignore the fundamentals of breeding for purpose and type seems bizarre and irrational IMO.
Of course folks can make up their own mind what they want, but it would be doing them a disservice if the advice from professionals and those competing with regard to selecting a horse for suitability for Horse Driving Trials was to buy one that “made them happy”[/QUOTE]
Thomas,
Thank you for the complement.
My horse’s video on YouTube has been linked on this thread in post number #11 by War Admiral, and he was mentioned by name in post #34 by Happy Feet. I was responding to some of the things that have been said about him, as there are some inaccuracies.
My horse is clearly a Dressage horse that has never been driven ever in his life. He has been shown the past 2 years in Dressage at FEI level at United States Equestrian Federation rated shows. (Prix St Georges and Intermediaire-2) Next spring he will show in Grand Prix.
There are 11 ASB’s listed in the United States Dressage Federation All Breeds award program, and I believe my horse is the only ASB competing at FEI level in Dressage at this time. What this has to do with CDE, nothing. I have no clue how many ASB’s are competing in CDE. I am responding to those who have said that ASB’s aren’t good for FEI level competition.
A team of ASB’s was mentioned by several people WA in post #11 and in posts #15,#16,#17, #20. I was offering an explanation of what they may have seen, a four in hand of ASB’s pulling a coach in a video from the 1980’s.
Cheer’s!
[QUOTE=lindac;2870644]
My horse’s video on YouTube has been linked on this thread in post number #11 by War Admiral, and he was mentioned by name in post #34 by Happy Feet. I was responding to some of the things that have been said about him, as there are some inaccuracies. [/QUOTE] Ah right. I personally wasn’t aware that there were inaccuracies. Rather I’d just thought your horse was being used as a poor example in the context of this thread.
I believe my horse is the only ASB competing at FEI level in Dressage at this time.What this has to do with CDE, nothing. I have no clue how many ASB’s are competing in CDE. I am responding to those who have said that ASB’s aren’t good for FEI level competition.
Did anyone say they weren’t any good for ANY fei competitive event? I thought we were talking specifically about horse driving trials (CDE to you guys). Some folks (myself included) are adamant that there are some breeds more likely to be successful and some breeds best avoided when making the choice to compete at THAT sport. Some folks also said that there’s sometimes occasional and rare exceptions that disprove the rule of breeding for purpose and type.
Clearly your horse is an exception proving this exception.
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;2871065]
Clearly your horse is an exception proving this exception.[/QUOTE]
EXCEPT that there are more exceptions coming along and no doubt you will see these exceptions more and more in the showring, both in CDE and Dressage.
That is a misconception that you are really going to continue to spread? The Dutch Harness Horse is a very well proven international level advanced CDE competitor. Several drivers competing at the international advanced level drive Dutch Harness Horses. There are also Dutch Harness Horses competing internationally in Grand Prix dressage. For those who are not aware, ImaDriver will promote the Saddelbred, another breed I admire, to high heavens every chance she can get on bulletin boards, but will take every opportunity to knock the Dutch Harness Horse, ironically a breed that uses both the Hackney Horse and SADDLEBRED for outcross blood, a breed that she has never handled, ridden or driven despite being in the same state as me and being invited to my barn any time she likes. So obviously I get a bit sick of it :dead: and wonder why she has to knock down one breed that is proven good at that prupose in order to promote another?
I also had to laugh that you go on further in your post to say
[QUOTE=ImaDriver;2870429]
Saddlebreds are a great breed for Combined Driving for some important reasons. Fine Harness classes are very prevalent, as in the Hackney horse breed, which keeps conformation as a driving horse high on the list for breeders. [/QUOTE]
when you were just knocking the Dutch harness Horse for having higher leg action, you offer up that the Saddlebred, bred for high leg action in Fine Harness classes, is a good thing? Can you contradict yourself even more? Could you also remeber that the Dutch Harness horse is bred for true gaits that don’t need excessive shoeing (no pads are allowed and shoes must be within a certain dimension), whereas with the Saddlebred you are allowed to and often see fine harness horses wearing pad stacks, heavy shoes, lead and bands?
(The Dutch Harness Horse is one of the three breeds the KWPN administers, along with the Dutch Warmblood and Gelderlander. The Dutch Harness Horse is the Gelderlander, a dual purpose breed, bred especially for driving by selecting the Gelderlanders that showed the most ability in harness, and then allowing the breeder to use Hackney Horse and Saddlebred blood when they see fit. The new Hackney Horse and Saddlebred blood that comes in is analyzed for its contribution to the Dutch Harness Horse through both conformation and performance evaluation and veterinary examination. A Dutch Harness Horse must be minimum 25% Dutch blood, and most of the top Dutch Harness Horse these days are abdou 75% Dutch blood, 25% outcross blood.)
[QUOTE=ImaDriver;2870513]
Morgans are the most common breed I see, many of the the top drivers here in singles and pairs drive Morgans. Scott Monroe, Fred Mirriam, Lisa Singer, I can’t remember more right now, but Morgans are very popular here on the East Coast. Also a lot of Perceron crosses. In ponies, I do think Welsh dominate, even Welsh crosses.[/QUOTE]
But here’s the thing: as a volunteer at the Intl. CDE that used to be near me, one year I had the chance to actually sit and talk over dinner w/ a couple of the IHP drivers mentioned above plus a few more, PLUS a judge from overseas.
To a man/woman of them, every last one, INCLUDING the breeders/owners/competitors of Morgans, agreed that while they loff their Morgans for what they do over here - they take them overseas and they get CREAMED. Look at the results: With a couple of exceptions over the decades, this ain’t wrong.
Given that the Morgan IS generally the most-used horse for CDE’s over here, but fails at IHP level overseas, it does seem to imply that there’s something wrong with our idea of what’s an “ideal” driving horse for CDEs…
FWIW at least 2 of the IHP drivers I was having dinner with (the Morgan ones ) said they would LOVE to take a shot w/ ASBs if they could find the right horse and a sponsor. Nobody was really ruling them out. By contrast, nobody was vastly enthusiastic about TBs for the reasons we’ve discussed before.
“Harry is the only purebred American Saddlebred in the entire United States performing, competing and winning at this level.*”
This quote was copied and pasted from the website
www.americansaddlebreddressage.com
The site at the end of Linda C’s posts here about her horse.
Edited to add: Under The Harry Callahan Story, it’s in bold red type really can’t miss the Quote
[QUOTE=goodhors;2866261]
If you haven’t already read the original posting related to CDE and Gaited horses, go down further. I started and ImaDriver responded.
I want to make clear, my remarks are all focused on DRIVING CDE, and DRIVEN DRESSAGE. More pointed at our driving Multiples. When choosing our horses, way, way back, we talked to Multiples Drivers who were experienced in years of driving horses, had successes in Competitions. Were successful at the highest possible levels, WORLD CLASS competitors in the USA and Europe. All had driven a multitude of horses over the years, tried many breeds, could be driving any breed they chose to use. All were REALLY expert in Dressage, consider it the basic for building on, to make the best CDE horse. All planned to drive Advanced with these horses.
They ALL SAID, “Standardbreds don’t make it at the highest levels”. They said the horse is not built to do the work needed. It actually got to be funny, how exactly the same words came out of all these different folks mouths. From one end of the country to the other, other countries, agreement on Standardbreds, racing Trotters not being able to do the best Dressage needed for winning. Other countries experts pointing at their local speedy Trotters as not being bendable as needed for Dressage. Winning Trotters have all got that same body style, long and lean, straight moving. Hungary has good local Trotters, yet they are not used in CDE or only as partbred crosses to get the bending ability. One German had been long-listed as a younger man, on the German National Dressage Team in ridden Dressage. He CERTAINLY knows how to get things out of a horse, including bending. He is one of the most condemning of Standardbreds, says they have a fencepost for a spine, just can’t give you a bend. These folks have driven Morgans, all the WBs, Appy, Arab, Fjord, Lippizans, Hackney, Gelderlanders and other mixed breeds, done well with them. They learned what body is needed to win CDE.
In my experience, with a fair number of horses, you can take any of them and work VERY HARD to CHANGE them into what you want. They are not suitable for the job you need done when you start. Spend hours and years, still have the $800 horse you started with. May have $2500 or more of training in it, years of work, but won’t ever sell for more than $800. You can’t EVER turn a pig’s ear into a silk purse, you will just have a really crabby pig’s ear. Both of you try, both of you are not happy with the results or effort needed to SORTA get there. Love them all you want, horse is still NOT CAPABLE of doing that job you want. Job can be driving or any other horse discipline.
Cute looks, Baby-faced, Tiny heads, TB looks, really DO NOT MATTER TO ME when choosing a horse. Head and looks are the LAST place I look on the horse I may purchase. I start at the ground, with hooves, legs. If suitable, we move up to body, is it cabable of doing what I want? Every breed has the “average” breed body style, with some very untypical members, whom I will call freaks because they are not “Breed Normal”. Often these freaks CAN do things not typical for this breed. Unfairly used as the “example” of breed diversity. Such freaks COULD NOT place in their own breed shows, wrong style horse.
Standardbred norm is long and lean, they go the very fastest. Ribs sticking out interfere with how the stifle passes the body, slows them down. Real Breeders DO NOT breed losers, they sell or give them away. If horse can’t make time on the track, earn money, he goes on elsewhwere. Foals have to show promise of speed, not just a bloodline, to be kept until they can race. Those are the cold, hard facts of racing.
You can shop at rescues if you like. Many folks do, find horses they like and get along with. There are a lot of horses left over from both racing industries. I don’t look for my horses there. I don’t want to redo, make over, someone else’s training. I don’t want these breed styles because they are physically unable to do what I want from them without a lot of grief for me and them.
I shop for a body style horse who is EASILY CAPABLE of doing the work I want done. I expect to have horse compete at high levels. I expect horse to be as GOOD or better, than the better ridden Dressage horses, not the lowest level competitors. His body style should make any Dressage EASY for him to do, parts fall into place when collected or extended. This is not hard work for him, it all comes together smoothly as his training progresses. He says, “Ok, got that. What next?” He enjoys his jobs.
There is not WORK on my part in training him. I am not forcing him to do things that are difficult, like bending, collection, suspension. Horse poorly built may be able to do parts of that in play, but it is difficult for him to sustain form over time needed in competitions. You can love him, doesn’t matter because love STILL does not aid him in bending or collection. I can LOVE a Draft cross, that will not make him recover faster after the Marathon phase, give him more manuverability in Hazards. He is what he is made. You can’t CHANGE HIS BODY!! Deluding yourself is silly, sure is a waste of your training time trying to re-make him into something he is not. Pushing can hurt him, body won’t hold up to forced frame in work. He is no fun to work with, so neither of you have any enjoyment when you go out to work. May make you really discouraged, give up CDE hopes.
We get the horses out to have a GOOD TIME, each and every time we use them. We are not going to force horses to perform when they don’t enjoy it. 95% of the time we go out, things are enjoyable, smooth, fun. Everyone has off day, maybe we get a few more than others on here, using 4 horses each outing. They can take turns with stuff. We like them, they appear to have a good time as well, not difficult in any things we request of them. If we had a poor outing 60% of the time, this is NO FUN, something needs severe changes.
Standardbreds can be nice driving horses for pleasure uses. WA has said she knows some nice ridden Dressage ones. I know some real enjoyable ones, used in family driving, casual settings. There are probably some driven ones I don’t know, doing CDE. I would not choose the Standardbreds for myself and my uses, or point anyone towards them, who wanted to be a player in CDE. Coaching folks love STBs, easy to match, good road speeds when out cruising around, handle a load just fine. Amish have used STBs for many years, rely on them. It is nice to have places to handle giving them away, but they are not the breed for me, not even free.
As a driver you need clear vision of your own wants and needs in a horse. Knowing your aims, goals at the start, will help prevent you picking wrong choices, less suitable body styles, way-back in the beginning of looking at horses. You may like a breed, start there, yet don’t let it blind you to poor specimans or that breed may not be best for your needs. Even picking the best body for your driving uses, sometimes a horse just doesn’t work out. You need to back up, maybe let him go to a more suitable home, choose another horse to continue with if you really want to reach your goals. Few folks get to the high point or goal they set, without changing horses along the way. You are learning each time out competing, skills should improve steadily. Horse may not be capable now, since the skills bar is being raised.
Do read some of the CDE winning lists of drivers, see the breeds they drive. What levels are they at? What are higher levels of horse breeds used and winning? Most multiple Drivers have several animals to swap in and out. They look for similar body types for easy matching in stride, movements. Hard to keep 4-6 going well at all times so spares are fit. One off horse, takes out the whole Team in soundness. No one gets to play. Multiples play at the very highest levels, extremely competitive, don’t settle for “pretty good” in Dressage or movements from their horses. Our goal it to play up there, we need capable horses to do that. Maybe we will make it. At least you aim for it! None of the Multiples folks go out expecting to get anything less than First Place!!
GOODHORS
What we were told by higher level Multiples drivers, was that Standardbreds take too much work to get needed excellent results in Dressage. They are lovely horses, but long, lean body style is against them.
Both Standardbreds and Orlovs, are built for speed, bred the fastest to the fastest, got the great speed they are known for. This speed is attained going in straight moving ways, not bending, flexing, allows the huge overreach of the driving rear end. The best ones have a more straight, even rigid, spinal carriage in motion.
Stiff spine makes it VERY hard for them to be bending, flexing, while going forward. Not bred for bendable body. I have huge respect for the drivers who gave us this opinion. Heck, one of them showed an Appy at the World Pairs and WON!! Not a breed prejudice thing. Those guys will drive what wins.
So even though Standardbreds are very capable in pulling carriages, often kindly horses, very available, they take a lot of personal work, to get bendable. You must continue to work on the Dressage aspects, to keep them capable of scoring reasonably. I don’t know any who score VERY well, but could be missing some good ones. If horse is your one and only, has you to put in the extra time and work, he might be one like WA talks about. Most Standardbreds just can’t get the good scores. They are just not capable of moving the way judges want to see, not his fault, but his speed breeding.
More of the Driver needing to pick the correct body style, able to do what you want. Driving Standardbreds would seem to be a “natural” in CDE, but they are far from the most common breed used. If a horse can’t do a good scoring Dressage, it will hurt in the other sections. Raw speed is not really that beneficial on Marathon, since too early is penalized like being too late. Horse needs to be bendable for Hazards and Cones, so his job is easier.
GOODHORS
Wow GoodHors I totally dissagree with you as to standardbreds and dressage. If you are talking about Standardbreds off the track, and are retraining them to be ridden, yes you may have to work much harder to get an older horse to become more bendable. But a youngster Standardbred who has not gone to the track is a completely different story. Even so,we had adopted a standardbred off the track, and he could turn on a dime, jump up and buck and twist like a snake. He was so bendable in fact he was too much for what we wanted and we gave him back to the adoption program. We adopted another one at four months from a racing breeding farm and trained him to carriage drive. Guess what, he didn’t like to drive! As a four year old we gave him to someone else in the program that rode dressage, and within a month he was bringing home ribbons!
What a shame that people write off a breed as “unbendable”, when there are so many loving Standardbreds doomed to go from the track to the Amish, where they are just a car to someone, and could instead be adopted into a loving home as someone’s special horse. If you haven’t been around the Standardbred breed recently, I can tell you that the old “slat sided” Standardbred has been replaced by very Thoroughbred looking Standardbreds, beautiful horses, many also look like Morgans, ours did. Every breed has individuals who are not talented and athletic, but if you are educated and competant as a trainer, you can get most horses to bend. After that, it’s the combination of horse and rider that can continue on to higher levels in a sport, like dressage. As much talk as there is about it, and interest in it, most people who compete in dressage, do so at the lower levels, and never move up to the higher levels. There are many breeds competeing in dressage at lower levels, and they all do well. Don’t write off an entire breed like that. It’s usually the trainer or rider that lacks the knowledge to teach a horse to bend, not that the horse is incaple of it.
Give a horse a break. Standardbreds are willing and eager to please you, they are bred for it, or they wouldn’t be willing to race till they drop.
by the way the website for the Standardbred Retirement Foundation is www.adoptahorse.org Go down the home page and see what today’s Standardbred can do, and how versatile they are, and how gorgeous they look.
IMADRIVER[/QUOTE]
Most of what I see written here about choices as CDE horses is about the breeds ability or inablility for dressage. Since I do know a bit about ridden dressage I thought I would post somethings pertaining to the ablility or inablility to certain breeds for dressage. As I have seen posted here many times it seems that CDE (at any level) are won or lost in the dressage. Sorry to have taken the subject soo “off course”…
[QUOTE=Happy Feet;2871363]
“Harry is the only purebred American Saddlebred in the entire United States performing, competing and winning at this level.*”
This quote was copied and pasted from the website
www.americansaddlebreddressage.com
The site at the end of Linda C’s posts here about her horse.
Edited to add: Under The Harry Callahan Story, it’s in bold red type really can’t miss the Quote[/QUOTE]
He is the only pure ASB showing at this level in the US at this point in time . There have been others 20 years or more ago. That’s a whole generation ago. I didn’t say “ever” to have performed at this level.
If it makes you feel better I will change the wording and thanks for giving me the idea of having a historical page on ASB Dressage. I can start with Tom Bass showing the Saddlebred mare Belle Beach in High School classes in the 1890’s. 
[QUOTE=War Admiral;2871236]
they take them overseas and they get CREAMED. Look at the results: With a couple of exceptions over the decades, this ain’t wrong.
Given that the Morgan IS generally the most-used horse for CDE’s over here, but fails at IHP level overseas, it does seem to imply that there’s something wrong with our idea of what’s an “ideal” driving horse for CDEs…[/QUOTE] I started to post something to that effect this morning and thought I’d better not for fear of getting stoned!
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;2871599]
I started to post something to that effect this morning and thought I’d better not for fear of getting stoned![/QUOTE]
No, I’m fiiiine with that, b/c here is what - as a NON-IHP driver - I really don’t get: as a newbie, you go to ANY driving trainer here, including all the IHP ones, and they are going to recommend you consider Morgans if you’re wanting to drive.
Nothing against the breed - and I do know them well; I grew up near Vermont which at that time was the Morgan bastion of America - everybody in my small town owned them, rode them, drove them, and I took many of my early lessons on 'em. And they are nice horses.
BUT: To me they are a very nice “utilitarian” horse, kinda like the QH, which can do a lot of different disciplines, up to a certain point, and do them capably/honestly. And an uber-competent whip can turn in an exceptional performance with a possibly average Morgan (as we’ve seen). But they are just not my idea of what I would want to try to move up the levels with. So why do they keep getting rammed down our throats as the ideal driving horse when even the IHP drivers who drive them admit that once you get to international levels, it isn’t true? 
I remain thoroughly unconvinced that WBs are the only way to go - I get tired of hearing it to be honest - I think it’s the most successful marketing scam ever perpetrated. And I freely admit that driving as a discipline takes more bone and substance than MOST TBs and ASBs have. But if I were seriously looking to move up the levels on an American-bred horse, those are the two breeds I’d be looking at. I’d be trying hard to find the “exceptional” ones. And they are out there if you ferret around.
[QUOTE=War Admiral;2871758]
I remain thoroughly unconvinced that WBs are the only way to go [/QUOTE] Do you mean warmblood breeds or warmblood types?
- I get tired of hearing it to be honest - I think it’s the most successful marketing scam ever perpetrated.
Well get off your butt and go prove them wrong by competing with a hot blood. Please don’t bother with a cold blood though as that would be a waste of money
And as you know I competed with hotbloods as well as warmbloods
Dutch Harness Horses
:)Renae, I do not have any prejudice aginst DHHs. In fact I actually admire them. But in singles over the last 10 years that I have been competing, in singles, we see them come out for CDE, do very well in dressage, but have slower times in hazards. I have witnessed this, that is not a predjudice against a breed. I do not believe in prejudice and bad mouthing any breed ! I do feel some breeds are better suited to some diciplines than others, some breeds are very highly specialized. I am not living in a dreamworld, because I think some breeds can be more versatile than thought of. If I think a breed is overlooked or prejudiced against unfairly, I will defend them. I think both Saddlebreds and Standardbred, unlike DHHs, are prejudiced against unfailrly. As to Saddlebreds, you know from my posts on other forums that I am not someone who promotes artificiality in Saddlebreds, I didn’t deserve that one. I do not like negative energy directed at any person or breed. I am the first to admit I am fiercely loyal, and I will take the thrown stones and the low blows, and come back again because I am loyal to horses and people that I think of as worthwhile. I do not read statistics, I report on what I see and have experienced, I am out there at the CDE’s competing.
I should have distinguished between singles and four in Hands, where we do see them at the shows I have competed in, and as a team they make up for the higher action when covering distances. DHH’s are bred for higher action than most breeds, and they do have a loftier gait than a Saddlebred does naturaly. I think if you took 2 babies with good action for their breed and compared them the DHH would have the higher action. A Saddlebred that is shown in the traditional way is trained to make their action higher. The Renai Registry, National Show Horse, and Dutch Harness Horse use Saddlebreds to cross into their breeds. So does the Georgian Grande(not a true breed yet I don’t think?) and probably other breeds I’m not aware of.
There must be something good about Saddlebreds that many other people think so highly of them, just as I do!
PS: As to Morgans, again I point out that the ADS has only recently aligned its rules to conform to the FEI rules. When I competed in Canada, the judges and TD’s there were European, and explaned to us that some of the hazards that we thought were tough, were just average ability in Europe. Many of our shows are trying to update and change both courses and hazards to European levels. It would make sense then that Morgans showing and training here are going to be more challenged in CDEs in Europe. Even so, if Scott Monroe had not turned over in a hazard with his Morgan Shadow, we may have had a Morgan score very high. But that’s what makes CDE’s so exciting, scores change from day to day!
[QUOTE=ImaDriver;2871997 I
do not believe in prejudice and bad mouthing any breed ! I do feel some breeds are better suited to some diciplines than others, some breeds are very highly specialized. I am not living in a dreamworld, because I think some breeds can be more versatile than thought of. If I think a breed is overlooked or prejudiced against unfairly, I will defend them. [/QUOTE] Had to say that I find such statements absolutely absurd and bizarre in the extreme. The whole point of “breeds” and breeding and animal husbandry is that man has intervened and purposely developed a specific type of equine for a specific purpose. Its not “prejudice”. Its not “unfair”. Its what breeding for purpose and type is about.
I do not like negative energy directed at any person or breed. I am the first to admit I am fiercely loyal, and I will take the thrown stones and the low blows, and come back again because I am loyal to horses and people that I think of as worthwhile.
For goodness sakes. What anthropomorphic twaddle! Its slightly different having an irrational prejudice because of a person’s ethnicity, culture or creed and expressing a fact about what is the best (or worst) breed of equine for doing a certain job. Trust me, my shetland ponies will be absolutely rubbish at CDE and my Dutch Warmbloods or Welsh Section D’s will never in a month of Sundays win a steeplechase. They’re too slow, too fat and lack the courage and agility. And you know if I tell them this, they won’t care less, because they’re just horses!
There must be something good about Saddlebreds that many other people think so highly of them, just as I do!
I’m sure there is and I’d be convinced they do the job they were bred and intended to do and they probably do it well.
PS: As to Morgans, again I point out that the ADS has only recently aligned its rules to conform to the FEI rules. When I competed in Canada, the judges and TD’s there were European, and explaned to us that some of the hazards that we thought were tough, were just average ability in Europe. Many of our shows are trying to update and change both courses and hazards to European levels. It would make sense then that Morgans showing and training here are going to be more challenged in CDEs in Europe.
So are you saying their poor performance is down to training or down to their inherant ability and potential because of their form and type?
Even so, if Scott Monroe had not turned over in a hazard with his Morgan Shadow, we may have had a Morgan score very high. But that’s what makes CDE’s so exciting, scores change from day to day!
Now I think that’s what makes a poor example. Its like saying “if my pony could only have managed to stay upright, he’d have won Blenheim Horse Trials or scored very high”
Imadriver makes a good point - that when considering the ideal IHP horse for CDEs, we definitely need to distinguish between ideal for SINGLES and ideal for MULTIPLES. I can definitely see WBs being best suited for multiples - TBs after all are not noted for their “team spirit”! :lol: WBs do seem to do better with the “security blanket” of another horse or horses to work alongside. But I’ve also heard some fairly hair-raising tales of situations where the whole team panicked…
I don’t really have enough knowledge of DHH to speak to one side or the other of that discussion. We don’t have any down here and I’ve never had the chance to see or work with one - I just drool over the pics.
My best fei pair were t/b and anglo arab … or double trouble.
And I’d a pair of t/b’s and a team of them.
The advantage of multiples is that you’d be REALLY unlucky to get 2 doing something stupid at the same time and so you can use one to countermand the other or against each other.
Furthermore you use their competitive spirit and so they compete against each other which allows for much faster times through hazards.
