Thomas:
Could you please offer the pro’s and con’s as you believe them to exist in both the horses you feel are proving to be excellent in CDE competition, and then offer us the specific issues you personally have found with the American Saddlebred?
I am quite sure that you have experience in the breeds that you have mentioned, but, it is possible that there is something that can be learned on both sides of the fence, and pond, on this issue.
Thank you for your time… :yes:
If you do a search through my old postings and in the archived threads, you’ll see I’ve posted extensively on this subject previously and extensively on specific breeds from time to time.
OK< so I looked…
at any threads where the word “Saddlebred” had been used, where you had posted, and I could not find the answer to my question. So, it is with due respect that I repeat my request. :yes:
I did find this quote of yours entertaining:
“Or do you now have it in your mind that I think all T/B’s are junk because of what I said about T/B’s NOT generally making good driving horses?”
I kind of thought you could have been speaking of another breed. :winkgrin:
and this one…
“Interesting take. You have opinions, I have knowledge and experience. There’s a difference.”
You aren’t alone… :lol:
Timeout!
Okay, we’re sliding down that slippery slope here…
How’s this for a thread summary:
“I don’t see any/many examples of breed X winning at the upper levels of sport A.”
“Breed Y is the best breed.”
“I don’t see any/many examples of breed Y in sport A.”
“But what about sport B?”
…
:eek:
Well, let’s talk a bit about Chester Weber, shall we?
Chester grew up on a large, successful Thoroughbred breeding farm.
You could argue that he had the best of the best at his disposal when he decided to pursue competitive driving. He also had the ahem financial means to buy the best, hire the best, and work with the best.
But, what does he do? He goes with the “marketing scam” du jour, “warmbloods”. He could have gone with Thoroughbreds - heaven knows, he had hundreds at his disposal. Now, why do you suppose he DIDN’T? I can’t read his mind, but I think it would be a safe guess that he didn’t feel they were suitable to his purposes.
You WILL find an individual Thoroughbred that might succeed, but it’s going to be rare as hens’ teeth. You WILL find ASB’s competing in CDE’s, but they are far, far outnumbered by the more “traditional” CDE breeds. This may change as breeders work through the generations breeding specifically for a horse that fits the CDE “mold” - but right now, they are just not out there.
You know, guys, all I did was repeat the request that WA had early on- which was to discuss any hands on experience that Thomas had with American Saddlebreds.
Why? Because he IS a wealth of information. However, there are fewer than 3000 American Saddlebreds being registered in the United States per year, and there aren’t a bunch in the United Kingdom. In order for anyone to speak, with authority, about anything- a breed of horse, in this case- any one of us expects that a frame of reference with the subject be a requisite.
In addition to hands on experience with ASBs, I asked for pros and cons of the breeds that Thomas would offer as having competed successfully in “FEI CDE’s” as he phrased it.
Obviously, I am looking for what my breed of choice might have- and not have- as compared to whatever model is mentioned.
This isn’t meant to be nasty- it is meant to educational- on all fronts.
This: http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t18/bryndewinesfarm/Zonicones.jpg
is one of mine at a driving clinic- the first time he had ever seen cones. So, I do have an interest, and a perfunctory background, in playing about at this stuff. I am not simply trying to create havoc!
Had to say that I find such statements
absolutely absurd and bizarre in the extreme.
The whole point of "breeds"
and breeding and animal husbandry is that
man has intervened and purposely developed
a specific type of equine for a specific purpose.
Its not "prejudice". Its not "unfair". Its what breeding
for purpose and type is about.
Thomas you just reiterrated what I said. Some breeds are highly specific to a job. A Belgian is so physically highly stylized for what it is bred for, it would not be as capable of doing many different things. However, a Thoroughbred, a Standardbred, a Saddlebred and a Warm Blood are more similar than they are different, and capable of doing a variety of sports, and do them well.
I think Thomas you have decided to not like anything I say, no matter what it is I say, as a matter of fact, I’m sure when you rebuke your next chosen quote from this post, it will be to tell me I am wrong about always being wrong! You make me laugh! :winkgrin:
So are you saying their poor performance is down to training or down to their inherant ability and potential because of their form and type?
I would say that historically our courses have not had as high a difficulty level. I think most horseman would understand what I mean by that.
Now I think that’s what makes a poor example. Its like saying “if my pony could only have managed to stay upright, he’d have won Blenheim Horse Trials or scored very high”
I think it was clear to most readers that if he had NOT turned over he would have had a high overall score. Having a turnover means being eliminated, so no score at all. However up to that point he was close to winning his division, and with a great dressage score.
As some one on this topic asked earlier, “what does dressage have to do with choosing a CDE horse?”,
those of us who compete know that a good dressage score helps you towards a better score and sets the tone for your marathon, which follows.You may be able, as a talented driver, to push your horse through hazards and cones, but you can not fake an educated horse, educated for the complexities of dressage."
While Thomas is busy cutting and pasting my quotes for his response, as I am his most delightful target lately, I will be enjoying getting ready for this most happy holiday coming soon. Bye posters for now!!
^I think you flatter yourself (or are paranoid) if you think I’m targeting your posts. If you’ve ever posted on other threads or if I’ve ever specifically responded to something you’ve said elsewhere, then I’ve got to say that I’ve not given it specific attention and have absolutely no recollection.
I am sincerely hoping that the above post does no refer to my prior post. Really.
However, I am still waiting for some address of my earlier request, and, honestly, I do not feel I am being difficult. I am looking for edification here- answers.
Please?
Is this thread specifically about Thomas and his hands-on experience with Saddlebreds?
No.
Is this thread specifically about Saddlebreds and driving?
No.
If you TRULY want an answer to your question, try sending Thomas a PM.
If you TRULY want to discuss SADDLEBREDS and their suitability to driving and CDE’s, then start another thread with that being your topic.
You keep trying to turn this into a debate about a specific breed when the original post was more about suitability of various breeds for CDE’s.
Darling Hitch. I did not try to turn this into anything. I was late to the dance. However, I have noted in the past that when someone makes a representation- on threads where you have interest- you do not think twice about asking them to explain themselves, and offer facts relative to their comments. In addition to my patience, I have been undeniably courteous.
The bottom line is that here on COTH, I have noted that we are not usually tolerant of those who dance in with a blythe opinion- about anything people actually care about- and are able to continue to dance about, with opinions based upon…what? We want to learn- we want the facts, M’am.
I have actually, if you re-read my post- asked for information about those breeds that Thomas, in his expert opinion (and reading his profile, he has a right to an expert opinion) excell in this sport, and the pros, and cons, of each. Not so hard- is it? That is what this thread was about- right?
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;2877501]
I am sincerely hoping that the above post does no refer to my prior post. Really.
However, I am still waiting for some address of my earlier request, and, honestly, I do not feel I am being difficult. I am looking for edification here- answers.
Please?[/QUOTE] Erm No it responded to the poster immediately prior to my reply!
I’m not sure what you’re specifically looking for additional to what I’ve already said.
You asked some questions which I took to be rhetorical and somewhat superfluous to the thread and about my specific experience with Saddlebreds.
I didn’t think this thread was just about that breed and I believe that I’ve nothing further to add with regard to their suitability for this specific purpose.
In searching for my comments on breeds that do consistently well at HDT, I’d suggest that using the word “saddlebred” would limit what you find. And indeed you’ve more chance of finding a flying pig than finding a posting where I’ve said a saddlebred would be a fantastic first option consideration in chosing a breed to compete with.
I also think my personal exeprience with them is of no relevance. I don’t need to own a shetland pony to know its not going to win the Grand National.
If I think I’ve anything to add to a thread, then I’ll chose to post and/or reply. If not, I won’t.
Do you mean this post?
Could you please offer the pro’s and con’s as you believe them to exist in both the horses you feel are proving to be excellent in CDE competition, and then offer us the specific issues you personally have found with the American Saddlebred?
Or maybe this post?
at any threads where the word “Saddlebred” had been used, where you had posted, and I could not find the answer to my question. So, it is with due respect that I repeat my request.
Or perhaps you were referring to this post?
You know, guys, all I did was repeat the request that WA had early on- which was to discuss any hands on experience that Thomas had with American Saddlebreds.
It certainly looks to me as if you are asking about a specific breed, which is well and good but your questions might better be suited to a new thread. Just a suggestion.
Yep. ALL of those posts. They are mine, and they followed an ongoing discussion where Hitch had already chimed in- apparently specifically because American Saddlebreds were being mentioned. Or maybe because Thomas had made a statement for which no foundation has been made. In any event, the OP started this thread about ALL breeds, and mentioned everything down to Appaloosas- this was a discussion, I thought, about all breeds, and their relative attributes for the purpose of competing in CDEs- right?
Then Hitch- well before I saw this thread- offers that we should do a thread specifically about ASBs, as they had been mentioned. However, since the thread was about all breeds- why isn’t this a good platform to continue the discussion? Is there a reason why the ASB shouldn’t be part of the discussion?
At this point, it is clear that, in spite of numerous courteous requests- from myself, as well as others, Thomas is not capable of supporting his negative claims regarding the American Saddlebred. Thats fine. I don’t really think he needs bodyguarding. But perhaps you folks know better than I.
Lets turn this round. As its clearly you that’s trying to prove something, just provide examples of American Saddlebreds competing successfully at fei Horse Driving Trials.
If you can’t do that, then provide examples of ASB’s that are winning repeatedly at national level competition.
Do that and you’ll clearly be able to prove that I’m talking tosh. Until then your insinuations are just smoke and mirrors.
More sheer brilliance- but then, that is to be expected! This thread was about potential- you know, the possibilities.
Thomas, you make it clear that you are an expert in the driving field. Then, you arbitrarily shoot down the POSSIBILITY that an American Saddlebred could be successful at CDEs. No reasoning- just the blanket statement. You have been politely asked by at least two parties on this thread to define what you believe to be the best horses for this purpose, and their pros and cons. Obviously, those of us that asked are looking to see what our horses have to offer to this pursuit. You have made it perfectly clear that we do not deserve the benefit of your expertise in this matter. Oh, but we should take your word as gospel- right?
Please. I know a good bit about American Saddlebreds, but nothing, for example, about Suffolk Punchs, or Cleveland Bays, or Welsh Cobs, save what I have read. But I certainly would not go about disparaging them- if someone decided to tell me that they were doing, for example, dressage with them. Are they going to be a world beater? How the hell do I know? It is the journey, for most, that is the point.
And your crystal ball works a whole lot better than mine.
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;2882141]
Thomas, you make it clear that you are an expert in the driving field. Then, you arbitrarily shoot down the POSSIBILITY that an American Saddlebred could be successful at CDEs. No reasoning- just the blanket statement. [/QUOTE] You clearly have a some paranoid obsession about the breed and what I’ve said about it and to such an extent that you’ve actually managed to invent something I’ve never said!
You have been politely asked by at least two parties on this thread to define what you believe to be the best horses for this purpose, and their pros and cons.
And if you looked through the archives you’ll find numerous postings on this topic by me and others who compete.
But to help here is an overview:
Cleveland Bay - one of the oldest breeds in Britain and ideally suited to all types of carriage work. Pure Clevelands of the old type can be rather large but for competitive driving they’ve been successfully crossed with lighter horses to produce something more successful. Prince Philip competed for many years with Cleveland cross Oldenburgs. They looked just like Clevelands except they were slightly lighter in the legs and consequently have better paces for dressage and also for speed work through hazards.
Hanovarian - extremely successful - a German carriage horse similar in stamp to the Cleveland bay. Fantastic for dressage work - very showy and also very agile sports horses.
Lippizaner - again VERY successful. Gyorgy Bardos on the world championships with a team of them in 1978 and 1980. Intelligent and respond well to training and with showy action combined with speed across country.
Hungarian Warmbloods - Lean leggy animals whose main attribute is the ability to cover the ground VERY quickly. Many of the strains have Lippizaner blood in them and that gives them style.
Trakehaner - VERY successful at international competition. VERY good looking and always well bred (their breeding is carefully controlled by the state).
Oldenburg - popularised in the UK as a successful HDT horse and competed fei by many but initially by Sir John Miller
Dutch Warmblood - smart and a little lighter than the gelderlanders or Friesians. Frequently been driven by world champions. In my competition days by Tjerd Velstra (twice w/c) and by Ijsbrand Chardon.
Friesians - high knee action and with imposing presence and impressive action. Again several times driven by World Champions.
Welsh Ponies - By far the most popular and successful breed of competition driving pony and horse. The A’s and B’s are stylish in appearance and move like miniature horses (arab influence in the breed). So they’re impressive in the dressage arena and furthermore are very fast through the hazards. But their size can limit their use to lightweight drivers unless they’re in pairs or teams.
The D’s (cobs) - often coming in best for HDT at around 15 to 15.3 mark. They’re smart and sturdy and strong and have extravagant action. The eye catching movement is an advantage in dressage and their sturdiness carries them well through the rigorous marathon section. George Bowman competes with Welsh Cobs and became national champion with them.
Suffolk punches are not for HDT at all. They’re a heavy cold blood for farm work. Slow and cumbersome
Dartmoors - one of the smallest British natives and usually about 12 hands. Fantastic driving ponies, but due to their size they’ve only been successful and at high level in competition when in pairs or teams.
Exmoor - a good strong pony that’s had considerable success in driving. Again agile and quick and with a showy eager action that means he’ll be a solid all rounder performer
Fells - by far the most consistently successful driving pony in competition. A sturdy pony bred for pack and draft work in northern England has the strength and stamina necessary for gruelling cross country. Though basically not a natural dressage pony, if training is started early enough they’re willing and will master the different movements required to perform a perfectly respectable test.
Thomas. First and foremost- THANK YOU for that delightful overview! :yes:
I have a question for you- are the modern day hazards, and distances, and more difficult than they were when the Lipps won? My reason for asking is that we had a lovely Lipp stallion that was used at the Equestrian Center that I ran. I did my very first counter changes, and tempis, on the lovely old gentleman- Pluto Majestico- but he did not strike me as a horse that would be particularly fast, or able to keep very fit.
As I admitted before, I am a novice at this- even as an observer. Do you think a modern day team of Lipps- or even a single- would be as competitive as those you mention above?
Indeed they even changed their name from “hazards” to “obstacles” :winkgrin:
Obviously I can’t speak for what its like in the USA. As mentioned earlier in the thread, its a newer sport over there and I’m of the view that the marathon courses are a heck of a lot easier there and more like our club level.
HOLY- er- that was a scary picture- but the look on that womans face is PRICELESS. Please tell us you married her- she deserves no less for her loyalty! :uhoh:
What type of critter is doing it’s very best imitation of that scene in “The Man From Snowy River”, except pulling a Meadowbrook?
Interesting about the hazards. David O’Connor referred to cross country obstacles as “puzzles” for the horses, at a talk he gave to the ASHA Sport Horse Committee, several years ago. I would guess these are the same theory- asking the horse and rider/driver to answer the questions posed by the obstacle.
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