Dual topic.. "Keeper" foals and "untrendy" breeding philosophies

[Tawna24]

There is always that ONE. Somehow, they set themselves apart.

This year I have one of those “special foals”… She is SO exotic and still the sportype I am breeding for. I have not seen anything else like her out there. She went beyond my expectations and is the poster child for the ASB/WB side of my breeding program- an exotic sporthorse unlike any other current “trend”.

She exudes this presence and is so “perfect” to me. I know conformation and movement wise she is pretty darn nice also, but there is that something “more” about her that sets her apart from all the “trendy” foals.

I am SO proud of this filly. I stuck my neck out there and am pleased with the results. I know because of her unique sportype she may not “win” when we take her out. I know though, this is not because she is not nice… she just sticks out and is SO different from the cookie cutter foals of the WB & Sporthorse world today. I know a nice foal is a nice foal… but, I am curious as to what kind of reception she will be given. There is much prejudice to overcome with this filly, as was/is for her sire.

Please don’t flame me for this… not saying the cookie cutter foals are not nice to begin with, but if you have a very correct foal, with a very correct foundation, and wonderful movement that is quite different from everything else… How will it fair against the “clones” of the breeding world?? I’m not sure… I guess I’ll find out at Devon!! LOL

So- This is my “keeper” foal… you know, the one everyone comes to the farm ‘s over and you respond “Not for sale”. She is the next generation for the ASB/WB side of my breeding program (I do have a straight WB breeding side as well). I am proud of her, in every differing yet correct sportype quality she encompasses.

Anyone else out there have one of these? A foal unlike any other to keep for the next generation? Something you believe in so strongly to stick your neck out there with?? I’m talking completely NEW breeding approaches… not the current trends (colored Wb’s, or Tb’s- new trends, but not unique) I’m talking about something completely unique… Or am I the only one??

I’m just curious to see whom else is out there with something “different”. Don’t be shy about sharing. I know most people on this board do the norm… but I don’t think they will flame us for sharing our “different” foals. It’s all about sharing, and learning. Perhaps something one of us unique breeders produces will become the next “trend” to combat the Euro WB breeding Machine that is ahead of the “game” currently. I’m not talking WB’s here… I’m specifying Sporthorses. Thoughts…??? Can we discuss such a topic here with open minds and no condesending undertones?? Just open conversation and possibly some willing to share there unique breeding approaches.

To end, I thought I would share some new photos of my special filly that started me thinking on this topic.
Maraposa
Maraposa conf 2

NOTE: Not meant to start wars with this topic. It is meant to learn about others’ “new” ideas on differing breeding approaches and philosophies.

[Ruach_Farms]

N.C.? Well I’m in Upstate S.C.

Where exactly is Wilson?

[aurum]

If you would have read my post carefully and without getting in offence you would have understood what I mean. It was just what Big Fred said but in my own manner. I have not said that Americans CANNOT breed real Warmbloods but you will not get there by creating crosses. There are plenty of Americans breeding very good and very nice WBs but those are breeding the real ones and I guess they have a good market for a good and nicely bred foal. What I do not understand is why there must be “made up” crosses when there are so many nice breeds that it would be more important to preserve these precious real native American breeds as someone said above, the Europeans are crazy over the American breeds and buy those.

[Ridge_Runner]

Yup, shawnee is right. Tawna was asking to hear from other breeders that were not breeding the “cookie cutter” foals or following current trends and discuss those trends…not have her filly torn apart and be told that her breeding program is all wrong by folks breeding mainstream WB’s.

That is why I replied to your earlier post the way I did. Sporthorse does NOT always equal warmblood. There are many other perfectly capable breeds and types out there and Tawna just wanted to hear from those of us interested in those types. I’m sure your intentions are good but your criticisms of her filly and program were not solicited.

[Silver_Sport_Horses]

Last year we had a buckskin Mustang/Oldenburg /TB colt. He was sold to North Carolina as a future Event horse. He’s development is being watched in hopes that he will be a being kept as a future sport horse sire. It appears he will mature about 16.1 - 16.2hh.

We also had a palomino sabino Quarter Horse/Hanoverian colt sell to a dressage home. His development is also being evaluted as a potential sport horse site.

This year the foal we bred was sold in-utero with his dam. He is a buckskin pinto Mustang/Oldenburg/TB colt. He is also be watched as a future sport horse sire.

I believe the Mustang and Saddlebreds have a lot to offer so do many other breeds. One day I would like to have some saddlebred in my program. My favorite horse that I showed Hunteres on was a Saddlebred/Anglo-Arab.

[Ladybug_Hill]

Not sure that I could agree with the gender thing or at least I don’t want to. I think it is more a basic American type of issue overall.

I love my foals too! In fact, that is probably why I am so critical of them. I want to make sure that the right buyer will love them too! I would be highly embarrassed if I promoted one as perfect only to have a really educated buyer tell me that I was ridiculous. If I am very “honest” about my horses to potential buyers, then a good match can made and the foal gets a happy home!

I have virtually eliminated having potential buyers come to see my horses to go home empty handed. Usually if they come, they buy because I have accurately (if not overcritically) described the horse.

I did learn a lot one time about foal conformation when I had a big time breeder come and evaluate a foal. I was not at all offended by her comments (only by her attitude). We all have something to learn!

[pintopiaffe]

Cahmon, you actually did it the ‘right’ way, putting the blood on top. We just don’t usually do that in the US. But it is the traditional way to infuse the Arab back in.

I’m always glad to see beautiful, correct sporthorses of ‘other’ breeding. But then, I breed 'em, so I guess I’m just lonely.

In my experiences, the judges have rewarded correct movement and conformation, even when the ‘type’ was different. My stallion’s Morab son (3/4 arab, 1/4 morgan, and pinto to boot) won colts of 2k beating some really tough competition. My other Arab/ASB crosses have stood up next to WB’s and won, or placed in the top 3. Now the first foal crop is getting old enough to be starting their real careers and competitions, and they are proving to be contenders, with ammy owners. What more could one ask?

I think you HAVE to do what pleases you, what makes your heart skip a beat when you see the horse trotting. If the recent anniversary and Katrina haven’t shown us… I don’t know what can… it can all be gone in a heartbeat. I’m not advocating hedonism–the horse’s welfare comes first, and if something happens to ME, they’d better be placeable/useable/and not end up in a can… but life is too short to not breed what truly pleases YOU first, then the market and the judges. If it is GOOD, it will sell and place. JMO, and luckily, my experience has lived up to it.

[shawnee_Acres]

Hey appaloosalady, breed to our app stallion and you WILL get color, guranteed! He is a snowcap, a 100% color producer, there are only two caot pattersn known to be homozygous in appaloosa, the snowcap and the fewspot, although there is a type of roan, wioth pink hooves though to be homozygous, But we offer a color guarantee and PROUDLY!!

[Sonesta]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Sonesta insinutates in her post…or at least I’m reading it this way… that folks who breed for the ammie market are being compared to backyard breeders and puppy mills? I don’t think there is one “non traditional” sporthorse breeder on this forum that is intentionally breeding low quality foals destined for the meat market. We are merely breeding something different and we recognize that in todays political scene our foals are not likely to be purchased as olympic prospects by top professionals but rather by amateurs looking for a sane and nice riding horse or pony. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And there is not one backyard dog breeder that is intentionally breeding low quality dogs destined for the local pound or shelter. They claim to be breeding affordable pets.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Is it that some of the mainstream sport horse breeders are worried about competing with us for that market? Is that the real issue here? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See excuse number 3 in my post above with regard to puppy backyard breeders and millers.

[trailblazer]

Tawna, sorry I misspelled your name!

[pwynnnorman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>ASB cannot get their hocks under them or have enough flexibility in the hindend. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Last time I’ll respond–not that I’m not enjoying myself, but I was suppose to leave this bloody office an hour ago!

Ladybug, one of the reasons why these threads become inflamed is because people take things out of context and make generalizations based on them and on their originator. I didn’t say that ASB’s “can’t” do this or that. And just as you point out some “possible” shortfalls, so did I. But when you state it like someone was breed bashing, the next thing that happens is the thread turns into a this breed against that one issue, not a breeding philosophy issue (and that WAS in the title of the thread).

It’s PHILOSOPHY, folks. And that IS fun to debate, if, that is, you can actually articulate what yours is. If all you can do is take offense at that of others, then, well, the discussion simply grinds into another rantfest.

How about describing the GOOD traits this filly has as those traits might influence someone’s breeding “philosophy”?

[JY1]

<span class=“ev_code_BLUE”>Please forgive my short “hijacking” of this thread for just a moment of clarification…</span>I was not aware of the thread until a friend sent me the link…because of the somewhat misconstrued information that was set forth about the Kiger mustangs. I am an avid fan of the Kiger and have been breeding top quality Kigers since 1999. As you may know, I have also been breeding warmbloods (especially from the Oldenburg region) since 1975. My Kigers are no less stunning and they captivate most visitors to the farm. I have sold most to my warmblood clients!Anyway…the comments about the breed being rife with QH blood cannot go unanswered, because that is far from the realities of the DNA testing that has been done. If anyone cares, there is a full report of that testing at: <span class=“ev_code_RED”>www.kigers.com/smkr/cothran.html </span> As you can see on the report, the Kiger has a higher degree of genetic similarity to the Criollo, Campolina, and Peruvian Paso than it does to the Quarter Horse. All breeds will show some similarity to other breeds because no breed is so pure that it is distinct within itself. Not even the Andy. And lest we forget, the QH was grounded in spanish mustang blood, so we should expect to see similarity there!
Cothran seems to cater to whatever crowd he is speaking to at times, but his report speaks for itself…If you look at the bottom table you can see that the Kigers as a specific group had the highest percentage of genetic similarity to spanish breeds of any mustang group he tested back in 1991 (this was before he tested the Sulphur herd)

There is no such thing as a “pure” Spanish horse, pure mustang, et all.
As for Kiger purity, they are as pure as any feral herd can be, in that they have been strictly isolated for the last 28 years, and having had a large degree of natural isolation prior to that. The have a sizable degree of Spanish influence, as indicated by Cothran’s study. I do not know if the University of Kentucky has done research on the SMR’s…I haven’t seen any but I bet if such a study has been done, the results would not be markedly different. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to think that the purity of the blood of the Kiger is “suspect”…it is certainly no more “suspect” than the “purity” of the horses with the Spanish Mustang Registry, which are predominantly offspring of horses Brislawn gathered many many years ago from all over the U.S.
A fellow Kiger breed wrote this to me: “It is interesting to know that we have the proof and can support our claims that the Kigers have a strong Spanish influence…because they DO. But thank God their blood markers are not ALL that they are about!”
I love my Kigers, as anyone who knows me can attest! That’s all I ride now and I have never known a gentler, smarter or more trainable group of horses. I breed my wonderful Oldenburg horses as I always have, with care and diligence. I breed the Kigers the same way - and with great passion to hold on to a bit of our romantic past.
Thanks for allowing me tis time for response about something I care a great deal about.
photos of my Kigers

[Ridge_Runner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Tawna24:

… wanted to thank Daydream believer for her last post… perfectly stated </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are welcome! This is a subject near and dear to my heart also!

In regards to this “breeding for amateur riders” issue and Sonesta’s post…I don’t really get WHY folks are so against the concept. What I and several others are doing is focusing on breeds and types that WE FEEL are more suited for some amateur riders than large, big moving, high strung horses that might be low quality offspring from someone’s olympic level WB breeding program. Not everyone in the world WANTS a warmblood either…some prefer little horses, some baroque breeds, some prefer flashy colors, some love some draft blood…each to their own. What a boring world it would be if there was nothing to choose from but warmbloods!

Sonesta insinutates in her post…or at least I’m reading it this way… that folks who breed for the ammie market are being compared to backyard breeders and puppy mills? I don’t think there is one “non traditional” sporthorse breeder on this forum that is intentionally breeding low quality foals destined for the meat market. We are merely breeding something different and we recognize that in todays political scene our foals are not likely to be purchased as olympic prospects by top professionals but rather by amateurs looking for a sane and nice riding horse or pony.

Is it that some of the mainstream sport horse breeders are worried about competing with us for that market? Is that the real issue here?

[Ruach_Farms]

So, anybody got any “untrendy” or unsual breeding plans for next spring?

I am looking for 1 Thoroughbred mare and 1 Standardbred mare (trotters)to breed to my American Saddlebred stallion. Also would like 2 more American Saddlebred mares to cross to a Knabstrupper or Appaloosa. All mares must be between 15.3-16.2 hands, prefer proven breeders, with good substantial bone, width, and hindquarter. Short-coupled. Of course, must have the movement, good legs, et.

I’m also thinking of breeding my pinto ASB mare who is in foal to my ASB stallion to another ASB stallion and my gray ASB mare to a warmblood. Probably a Holsteiner.

I do prefer to keep my breeding program based on American horses as much as possible. Just have to find the right guys to put together.

[trailblazer]

aurum, you have great English for a non-native speaker.

[Ridge_Runner]

Aurum… I think you are getting your terminology confused. Warmblood and Sporthorse have two different meanings in English. Warmblood can mean…depending on who you talk too…either a European origin crossbred horse registered with a European type registry or some think it means a cross of hot and cold blood…and call draft crosses warmbloods also. I know that gets people upset but I’m just explaining things to Aurum so don’t flame me for it.

A sport horse is any breed of horse that competes in sport horse disciplines like dressage, jumping, eventing, or driving…and now reining is getting up there at that level with FEI recognition. So why would you think that warmblood is the same thing as sport horses I don’t know. There are plenty of non warmbloods competing at the highest levels…spanish horses like Andalusians and Lusitanos, Russian horses, thoroughbreds, irish drafts, draft crosses, etc…

What folks here are trying to do is breed an American Sporthorse that can compete on an equal level with warmbloods like many breeds already do. I think maybe you are completely missing the real meaning of this thread and what the folks who are “untrendy” are trying to do. We could care less if European registries ever accept them.

[showjumpers66]

I have an interesting one coming tonight … with my luck it will either be bay with not a hair of white or have freaky markings and blue eyes. The foal will be 3 x Cor de la Bryere and will basically be all mixed up! 5/16 TB, 7/32 Hol, 5/32 QH, 3/32 SF, 3/32 Paint, 1/16 Dutch, 1/32 Trak, 1/32 Arab or 11/32 Blooded Breeds, 13/32 Warmblood, and 1/4 Western Breeds.

[Home_Again_Farm]

Kim and daydream,

I live near Judy Y so get to see her Kigers often. She is doing fascinating things with them and it is well worth visiting her website to see:

http://www.yancey-farms.com/horse.htm

Click on the Kiger link, but don’t miss going to “Our Horses” to see the interesting Andalusian and Lusitano crosses she has produced. Her foundation Kiger mare is a solid mare of obvious quality, very Spanish with excellent conformation, bone and movement. Judy brings the experience of many years of breeding excellent horses to this venture and it shows in her decisions about keeping a mare or not and how she crosses the bloodlines. I think you will enjoy the read.

[CuriosoJorge]

Ruach, if you are “setting the record straight”, isn’t it correct that you are one of the founders of the Americana Sporthorse Registry, and therefore you have a vested interest in promoting saddlebred sporthorses?

As I recall from past exchanges, you don’t like to reveal your true affiliations on this bb, so kindly leave my own out of the picture. Thank you.

I saw Halloween shaped/colored baby peeps in a store the other day. Discuss: are these “untrendy” peeps in untraditional colors (not Easter!) acceptable? Or should they be dipped in chocolate before consumption?

[Ridge_Runner]

I know just a little about them from chats with Nakota folks. They are not considered pure spanish in blood but are known to be crossbreds. There are several types and I think the “traditional” type is the most spanish in type. There is a ranch type that is quite large and might have some draft blood in them. I think they are descendants of a certain tribes ponies. I have seen pics of a few of their traditional types that are strikingly iberian though so I’d say they are very similar to what I have.