Dual topic.. "Keeper" foals and "untrendy" breeding philosophies

Sonesta understood my point completely. The dog breeding analogy is a great one. In one litter, you may have a pup that finishes his championship at 18 months, and another pup that has an off bite, or moves with a hitch behind. That put will never finish, but it is certainly able to be a great pet and companion dog for someone.

I see horse breeding in much the same way. If you try to breed for the top levels of your sport, you won’t always get a foal that will get there. But you will have plenty of nice foals with good qualities that are appropriate for the lower or middle levels of the sport. So I just don’t see the need to purposely attempt to breed middling quality animals.

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Aurum et al,
I AM NOT BREEDING WARMBLOODS do you UNDERSTAND THESE WORDS. I am breeding american SPORTHORSES. Not the same thing, nor do I WANT to breed warmbloods. I breed FOUNDATION APPALOOSAS with soem TB bloodlines. I don’t care or need your “standards” to measure my NON-WARMBLOODS up against. And by the way, the warmblood “breeds” (which they are NOT breeds, but types) are basically CROSSBREDS! GRanted they have been refined thru many years but guess what you guys STILL take TB’s and arabs and cross them back in, so whats the diff???

Lindac,

My website is WOEFULLY out of date, planning to jsut do a new one! But if you’d like to see our stallion or foals, I can send you photos via emails, and here is a link to my stallion at his first ever dressage competition in MArch 2005, a USDF competitions

http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prsm.dll?eventorder…=0&album=0&adjust=-1

http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prsm.dll?eventorder…=0&album=0&adjust=-1

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>If anyone wants an example of a foal you’d like to keep, go to http://www.fences.fr and search for Argenta R. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Le Grande Fred,

Holy cow!!! I love the site, but I can not find Argenta R. Can you help?

Yes I think he is around 18 yrs old, he is a big fellow, 17+ hands, he excelled in dressage and eventing. He himself is a leopard so not a 100% color producer, but his owner has a colt that is a cross between his bloodlines and Wap Spotted (wow what a cross!) That I’d LOVE to breed to. He is a few spot so a 100% color producer and has done VERY well in breed shows. I will try and find the wwebsite for you

JER - lovely foals, both of them. And I’m sure YOU are in a better position to tell us which one is the nicer of the two, even though CuriosoJorge seems to think she can tell just from standing pics whether foals are up to snuff or not.
Tell me CJ - do you really think the second foal is built downhill? Can you not tell when a foal is going through a growth spurt and is about 3 inches butt high??

Now I’ve seen it all… hunters must have bad conformation, and Thoroughbreds and TB/Draft crosses are “untraditional” sporthorse breeds.

I confess that I don’t understand breeders that claim that they are breeding for the “amateur” market. Why should an amateur have a less fancy horse than a pro? “Breed the best to the best and hope for the best” has worked for thousands of years. Notice that the saying is not “breed mediocre to mediocre to get horses for the lesser people to ride.” Obviously not every horse is going to be an Olympic competitor, but what’s the point of spending thousands of dollars and a lot of time creating another equine mouth to feed when you are breeding for mediocrity within your sport?

DB - he’s not mine, he belongs to ASB Stars on this board! He is lovely, and a fine example of the breed.

I have lots more pics of stunning ASB specimens, but they’re not on a webpage and I’m not a premium member… anyone want to post them for me…??

Chocolate anyone?

Hi Lynn thanks !
The Florencio filly is nice and she won the foal show we took her to. I like her a lot.
She has a very nice and calm attitude. Mum was soken wet when we arived as she often thinks weard things happen to her during trips. But than we had to wait, left her on the trailor and she became her normal selve. We unloaded them in a hurry as we were first supposed to be last of all foals and than suddenly first to go. They did very well and won the ring. Than I “parked” mare and foal somewhere near the ring where there is a playground for children. Lots of children suddenly around us asking can we pad the mare. I let them pad the mare, not the foal as I am a bit afraid of kids not knowing horses. Both were standing there, mare was bored of grasing and a bit going back and forth not standing still. The filly stood a few steps away and was grasing very calmly for an hour until we had to go into the final ring for selecting the champion foal. Not even twitched an ear at the children.
I hope she stays like that when we start riding, but I think she has the same sort of nice character as her father and I hope the same sort of rideability.

I sold the Prince Thatch mare (still pending), which was quite hard for me. The buyers wanted the filly aswell and offered very good money, but I did not let her go. If I would have liked to sell her I could have done quite a few times this year and I would not have offered the PT mare for sale. So she will be the next generation and for sure is an improvement of her mother in the areas where I wanted to improve. We’ll see how well she does as a riding horse in 3 years. Can’t wait :wink:

trailblazer,

I bet the five judges on the Bundesschau where the best foals of all over Germany have been, were all blind that day.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by adventurebeachponies:

How many of you are breeding for Olympic World Class sporthorses that will be purchased and ridden by professionals and are actually keeping, training and gearing towards that arena? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I’m not. I’m breeding for the amateur market and perhaps ponies for kids as well depending on sizes and their where their talents lie. I do think my little horses are capable of FEI level dressage and have been told as much by my coach…but they do not have the extravant gaits of “modern” warmbloods but will have the same strengths as spanish horses do…the ability to sit and collect. I do think more and more amateurs who have no olympic aspirations and are seeking an easy enjoyable mount and are willing to look at something other than a large, big moving warmblood. Also as Shawnee pointed out…our horses are less expensive and I think more and more that is going to be a consideration in our economy to be competitive.

Keeping expenses down as a breeder is going to be key to my future success also which is why my own mares are bred with live cover and owning my own stallion allows me to have that option. I am also training and competing my young stallion myself and the best pat on the back this past weekend I could have ever had when he went to his first show and did a very respectable job, was very well received with many complements from spectators and other exhibitors, and never put a foot wrong the entire day…and even won a ribbon! Not too many stallion owners do that and end up putting them into professional training which I could never afford to do. But then again, I’m not focused on the top end of the market but the ammies and I hope by showing folks that as an ammie myself my stallion has the temperment to be shown by me and not some big name pro.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”> How many of you are breeding for the amateur ring in dressage, hunters, jumpers etc? How many of you are keeping, training and selling said offspring into that market? This market is insatiable and it is HUGE…

This is exactly why I do pony hunters and not true Olympic calibre sport horses (plus ponies are air plants and as Elaine noted they look like “My Little Pony”.)

Cathy </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I am keeping two fillies from this year’s first foal crop of three. I do plan to send them out into the heat of competition someday but cannot ignore their value as future broodmares also in what is a very rare and endangered breed. Hopefully I can strike a balance with that.

I also really appreciate the “air fern” traits of the little horses I have. So much less work and feed to keep them fat and fertility has been very high on all of them.

Jprater…good questions.

BLM mustangs are those that come from the government’s adopt a wild horse program. That means that they are taken from a feral herd somewhere in the US.

Spanish mustangs are generally ranch raised or now raised by people like me…smaller breeders. The ranchers are mainly preservation breeders focused on maintaining the bloodlines and keeping a good number of foals coming…my focus is on breeding high quality foals for english sports.

Kigers are BLM mustangs that come from a specific herd management area (HMA). Kigers are thought to be spanish in descent but DNA test show them to be more QH than anything else. They were not accepted into the Spanish Mustang Registry which is the registry my horses are from. Not saying they aren’t really nice horses but their purity of blood is very suspect…and that is very unfortunate.

OK…now what is the real difference? Virtually 100% of todays feral horses are crossbreds of some type. The originial mustang was a spanish pony descended from the horses brought by the conquistadors to the New World. The horses brought over from Spain were thought to be Spanish Barbs (endangered), Spanish Jennets (now extinct) and Sorraia horses which still survive in a very small area of Portugal. These horses were taken by indians, got loose…etc… and interbred to create the vast herds which once roamed the plains. When Louis and Clark went west to survey the Louisana Purchase they wrote of the incredible quality of the indians horses…and no surprise because what they had were the same horses the Conquistadors brought. These same little horse outran the US Cavalry mounted on TB’s and grain fed and it was finally by killing off the indian’s horses (literally) that they were subdued and kept on the reservations.

Anyway very few of the spanish horses that survived the extermination of the indian’s herds made it into this century without being mixed with ranchers horses or later in the 20th century with horses turned loose intentionally to improve them. Back in the 1920’s a group of men were gathering as many of the pure spanish horses remaining that they could find and they were taken not just from feral herds but from indian tribes (they were allowed to keep a few horses) and some ranchers who had kept herds themselves. San Domingo who Margurite Henry wrote about was one of these first horses found and I think he came from an indian tribe in New Mexico. He’s also a Breyer Horse model I think.

Anyway the Spanish Mustang Registry was formed in 1957 and since then has worked very hard to save this endangered breed and to find as many of the remaining pure spanish horses they could find. We now believe there are virtually none left running wild. Estimates put about 2000 to 2,500 alive today and registrations over the last 50 years total about 3300.

As for what makes them suitable for sport horse disciplines you only need to look at one. They have the same build as modern spanish horses, the same tractable dispostions, and IMO better sport horse type movement.

Here are some pics of my stallion at his first dressage show.

Cisco’s First show thread

They do make superb trail, endurance and ranch horses…no doubt about that! Myself and several other breeders across the US are now training and promoting them in english sports and you will start seeing a lot more of them as folks catch on to what great little horses they are.

I honestly don’t know if anyone will add this blood to WB programs with the current thinking the way it is but I do think they would have a lot to offer much like the infusion of arab blood does. Perhaps as we get some horses out and folks see what they can do, more breeders will be interested in giving a cross like that a try. I have bred my stallion to several pony mares of other breeds and we have an arab cross filly and a QH cross colt on the ground now…both turned out very nice and sporty with nice temperments. They are noted for soundness, good bone, good temperments and they have the uphill build desirable for sport horses.

Aurum…thanks for joining the discussion in a productive way. I think you have a lot of knowledge we can gain from you.

I wanted to make a comment too about Morgans. Their origins were never quite decided upon but what I believe is the most likely scenario is that Figure’s (the first Morgan) sire was most like a Spanish Barb/Mustang…whatever. Funny enough at my stallion’s first dressage show recently, someone came up to me and asked what breed he was. She thought he looked a lot like a morgan but knew that dun was not found in that breed…so she was stumped. They are very similar.

Tennessee walkers, while definitely American in origin also sprung from early spanish horses that were gaited. Still within the spanish mustang breed, gaited horses show up…and particularly in certain lines which I am obviously keeping out of my program since gaitedness is not desirable for sport horse movement. I agree that this breed is probably not a great pick for a sport horse although I have heard of some that can really jump well.

Lianne…that is a lovely horse you linked a pic to. If you had not told me that was a saddlebred, I would not have guessed it. I would have said it was a warmblood. You all really do have some nice looking horses.

I agree with Cartier (can you believe it, C?) about barn blindness. It’s our biggest problem, IMO–especially in this country. Not enough of us are brave enough to use the word “cull” and yet what breeder (of any animal) doesn’t produce a few? I, personally, am proud of being able to tell you exactly (or let you figure it out by the prices on them) which of mine I consider not up to snuff. I suspect culling gets even more difficult if you are paying huge stud fees, but I also suspect it is still necessary to stand your baby up against the best and try to be as objective as possible.

That said, we also have to accept the fact that babies, especially crossbreds that include unproven lines (and I’ve come to respect the “proven” lines of some WBs that consistently produce the desired type–which I, too, wouldn’t call trendy, but rather the result of an evovling standard, as someone else put it so well).

After 20 years of breeding, my favorite saying is “Never judge them too soon–good, bad or indifferent.” What looks spectacular can become common and what looks common can have hidden traits that make it priceless.

In fact, except for crookedness–and NOT excepting most temperamental issues–I disagree with judging foals entirely. What you see is rarely what you get, and without a solid knowledge of their progenitors–for several generations–making decisions based on their future…well, if we really could do that…well, don’cha think our profit margins would be one heck of a lot better than they are?

Wow!! Wonderful feedback within restraint! What great comments and sharing of opinions! I am glad I posted this for discussion.

Maraposa is unique as for her breeding. She is 3/4 ASB and 1/4 DWB. I know she fits into the “colored” horse trend, but I was referring morso to her “type”.

Most people in todays breeding world would think the obvious thing to do would be to breed OUT the ASB, and breed Max to a pure WB. I did the opposite. As far as I know, I am the first to do this and own a 3/4 ASB / WB cross.

To push my breeding practices even further I plan on crossing Max onto my MMB Hanoverian mare next year (for a 3/4 WB, 1/4 ASB) and then breeding my HUGE ASB mare with a dose of frozen I have to Stedinger (Another 1/2 & 1/2 like Max). These are future plans (that could change) I am very excited about seeing the results from all of these percentage crosses. Currently in 06’ I have my ASB mare expecting a ASB/Hanoverian cross.

I also plan of having Mara in the far future to cross onto other WB stallions (possibly my own up and coming Hanoverian yearling stallion prospect ), or (if available) another ASB/WB cross stallion of outside breeding.

Oh and Marsha, yes, I DO remember you!!

Thanks again everyone for responding… and yes, my “keeper” filly IS a keeper for my future breeding program.

Tawna sigh she’s lovely!

Just barely dipping a toe into this, but movement is what is really important. I have seen “perfect” horses that are bad movers, and horses with HUGE faults that are world class. Movement really can not be judged by a photo. You can see some of the length of stride, and bend in the joints but not elasticity, cadence/rhythm, upwards thrust, etc. You also can’t judge walk and canter at all - MUCH more important than trot.

Some color horses remind me more of stock types with short legs. Tawana’s filly does not have any of that stock look. The first photo she posted does look like she has more of the newer saddlebred characteristics, but the 2nd one does not. They are photos of a baby, and that can look so different from day to day, and angle to angle.

I breed horses that can be competitive at FEI levels, but not necessarily in international competition - they are just not hot enough to get those Anky type gaits. Not sure I want that kind of hottness though. Remember, Rembrandt blew his chances in Atlanta because of a little stone statue and that was with an Individual Olympic Gold Medallist on his back.

With the hotter and hotter temperaments, more people will be looking for a non-traditional horse so they can actually ride it, not their trainer. I know several committed warmblood breeders that have actually changed to draft crosses.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by aurum:
I thought constructive critic would be appreciated. But I see that in reality nobody wants to hear the truth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL, look who’s talking!!!