This years Heartbreaker x Calvados x Burggraaf x Polydor started off life very, very average. But Bernard Le Courtois and Arnaud Evain, selected him for the November FENCES sale, so what the hell do we know!!! They must have seen something, he’s turned into a real cracker…and for the record, we call ours “the Kids”.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>I agree with Cartier (can you believe it, C?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
aaaahh… how sweet 
but does this mean you don’t agree about the Bull Terriers? 
that was one of my most insightful (yet completely off topic) comments ever …
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>SBs tend to have extreme action in the front and back that is very “up and down”, they like to go high headed with hollow backs, they usually don’t have much elasticity in the back, and they tend to have a different type of hindquarter than a warmblood </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes if you are looking for a Saddle Seat horse. You have to look for the RIGHT Saddlebred to do Dressage and it is not one that moves up and down but one that moves OUT and pushes from behind. It’s the same thing with Warmbloods, they are not ALL suited to Dressage.
Ask the ASB breeder Grandpa what he does with the 80-90% of the horses that he breeds that WONT DO Saddle Seat because their head is set on TOO low or they don’t have enough action, or are just not “typey” enough for the show ring.
Tawna, Rausch Farms, and I are fighting discrimination from not only Warmblood people who refuse to believe that a Saddlebred or ASB cross could make a good Dressage horse but also from the ASB breeders themselves who refuse to admit that they can produce anything BUT a Saddle Seat horse. Many of these breeders would rather sell their Sport Horse type prospects for MEAT than admit that they produced a Dressage Saddlebred!
Thats OK. We are slowly making progress to change minds. It takes time to make Dressage horses and get them up to FEI level to prove themselves. I have had my ASB in training for over 4 years. He showed 3rd level this year and his high score was a 67.11, not exactly “struggling” at that level. Next year he will be showing at Prix St. Georges. He is doing all the Grand Prix movements and can do a line of 2 tempis CORRECTLY and is schooling his ones. If anything ASB’s are MORE suited to the upper levels than the lower ones.
There is a growing interest in ASB’s from the Dressage people in our area because some are “struggling” with their Warmbloods, AQHA’s, etc to move up the levels and see how easy and talented the ASB’s are. There are a couple of people that are actively looking for ASB’s prospects to purchase at this moment.
Lynn, if you are ever in Kentucky, I invite you to come by and see my horse work. I think you would be pleasantly surprised. There are 4 more ASB’s coming along but they are only 3,4,& 5 so they are doing the same things that Warmbloods of that age are doing.
Linda
Edited to say that my barn owner has a Warmblood friend who REFUSES to go into the barn if one of the Saddlebreds is working. I don’t know if she is afaid she will go blind or if she is afraid she will have to eat crow!
I agree, DB.
And CuriosoJorge - when the breeders who breed to the most expensive stallions and have the SPS premium, Elite bla bla bla mares producing foals that they know are not the highest possible quality, do they drop their prices to 4K and find them good amateur homes? Maybe some do, but the majority? HELL no. They keep the prices jacked way up because a) they expect people to pay more for the bloodlines, regardless of whether the foal is spectacular or just “nice”, and b) they need to run a business!!
The people who DO recognize the sub-par foals and sell them for much less are, guess who? The Europeans. And who do they sell them to? Low/mid-level ammmies in Europe, and you guessed it, us. 
They churn out hundreds of sub-par foals every year, and sell them off quickly and cheaply. For every international quality horse produced in Europe, you can bet there are hundreds of average and crappy ones produced, and by the same farms.
Sheer NUMBERS, people. It’s a question of numbers!!! Of COURSE if you breed 1000 Warmbloods in a year, odds are you will get some international horses, and maybe a couple of Olympic horses! It’s basic math, for crying out loud!
And I’m sorry, the dog breeding / horse breeding analogy just doesn’t wash. The breeding/raising/selling/usage practices of dogs and horses are totally different. Until you guys start breeding horses that need to obey, fetch and sit on your children’s lap without nipping, I would recommend we leave dog breeding out of this discussion. 
Now you may all go to kill me, but I hate it if everybody says how nice and wonderful and in fact there is nothing nice except the coloring!
I normally do not say anything before I say something bad, but I agree with the barn blindness of so many people. Thank God I am not barn blind, have never been, instead I am always more critical to my own horses than anyone else. You can ask those people that have been here and have seen my horses and can testify therefore.
I rate my foals before the foal show and mostly the breeding directors come to the same result as I did before the show. So I must have rated them correctly. No barn blindness here.
Back to this filly, I am sorry, I like her coloring but not the conformation. It is different than a WB conformation. The neck set is not what I would like to see, the shoulder is too straight to move out and the middle part is too long and too straight on the hind end. In addition the hind end is too light and small. I attach the picture of a real Warmblood buckskin tobiano filly that made it to be the German WB Bundeschampion filly foal in 2001. If you put the two fillies aside you can see the difference and what I mean easily.
Sorry Tawna, you know that I like the stallion Maxamillion a lot but I would cross him to WBs instead of moving backwards. And what about the gaits in a Saddlebred? They may show up and then there is no way the horse can compete against the other WBs.
Breeding for quality and sport means breeding forward not backwards. It means also that today I am saying that the filly on the picture is less nice than her 3/4 sister which was only ranked 3rd on the Bundeschampionship a year later. Now that they are adult the difference is much visible and the younger, less high rated one is the nicer one, more modern and elegant and taller. You see I am still critical.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>I have to say that in the last two months on both this forum, and Ewarmbloods, I have only heard american breeders describe every single foal born as Stunning, the best, world class etc etc. Has anyone actually had an “average” foal, that’s average - better than some, not as good as some. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Le Grande Fred,
I think we’ve all had a few stink-a-rues… but it’s hard to win people over if you start with. “Well, actually… I breed pure cr@p and haven’t made the slightest improvement in any breeding I’ve ever done, now here’s my opinion…" Somehow that approach just ain’t very persuasive. 
As for bubbling over foal pictures… come on now… admit it… you probably get a bit emotional when your foals are first born. Newborn foals are darling… it’s hard not to gush… that doesn’t necessarily mean we think they are going to be world-beaters… Rather, I think we all appreciate the pure joy of a healthy foal on the ground… and the beauty of these precious creatures on a basic visceral level.
Alexandra,
Well I quite confident in writing that Flamminia
will be a <span class=“ev_code_BLUE”>FABULOUS</span> and <span class=“ev_code_BLUE”>STUNNING</span> riding horse !
I await your email telling me just how correct I
was in saying so - 3 years is a long wait for an
email (and photos!) but I can be patient ! 
Yours in sport,
Lynn
Glad to see this was set back on track - thanks, Cartier. You made some very good points.
aurum - my point in posting that picture was not to give you an example of good conformation, it was to show this “backwards cross” horse is competing and winning in Dressage (3rd level, at the moment, with plans for Prix St Georges).
Forgive me for thinking people would focus on what the horse is DOING in the picture, instead of what it LOOKS like.
in eastern NC just off I-95, we are about 45 minutes east of Raleigh
I’m with you Cartier, we’ve never bred a bad foal either! However, we have the fortune in europe to have auctions, and many of them. It may sound a little too profit based, but breed specifically for the auctions. The point being that as a couple, we prefer to allow our foals to be judged objectively by world class breeders, who will be deadly honest with us. It doesn’t make us any better than any other breeder, it’s just a policy that we’re really comfortable with. If anyone wants an example of a foal you’d like to keep, go to http://www.fences.fr and search for Argenta R. God knows we’d love to keep him, but we’re not horse collectors, which can be a very dangerous way to be. We’re foal breeders and foal sellers. The point at which we start to keep, is on a spread sheet and timed to coincide with various changes on the farm, and our circumstances. Subsequent “keepers” are also timed, but do you realise how long it takes to end up with 20 horses? No time at all, then you have no time at all!
We never have a dilemma about letting a foal go, the ultimate goal of this stud, is to have bred an olympic horse…that’s BRED, not necessarily own. If one made it, you’d still get on that plane and bask in the glory of being the breeder wouldn’t you (and be pretty relaxed about the whole deal, because you’ve done your job). Tawna, never be scared of letting them go, there is always the chance that they could be going to an even better home than yours, and take pride in the fact that you have given the world a super foal, having had a great start in life. If he does really well in the age classes, breed another! Let someone else take the risk/heartache etc. I can’t wait to see Argenta or Apollo in the four year olds at Fontainbleau (there will not be enough tissues in the world when that happens). I think it’s very difficult to be a breeder and a competitor at the same time, and in an industry where the breeder does get a lot of credit, we’re always happy to sit back and take it (and the money)!
Tawna, if you’re happy with your breeding/keeping policies, go with them.
Cathy,
Your photos are always so so beautiful… I love the Jani headshot… absolutely beautiful!!!
Who does your photos?
-Elaine
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>you guys will be getting the “wake up” call as Americans continue to breed better and better sporthorses, whether based on your warmbloods or based on increasingly popular alternative American breeds, and European breeders will begin to see a decline in their American market. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Can’t resist stepping back in here…
Say, in a way, aren’t Europeans already getting a bit of a “wake up call” from the American Quarter Horse, Morgan and other Made-In-America breeds (and bloodlines) as they gain increasing popularity among the rank-and-file riders (not just the elites who populate the equally elitiest Olympic sports–er, minus reining, of course)!
Maybe if somehow Europe’s grip on the standards and judging of the elite sports could be shaken loose, even in those areas our breeds could make better headway. Imagine if the expectations of dressage were more like its not-so-distance cousin of reining, for example. Then it’d be AQHA’s RULE, yeah!
I think we all need to remember (Europeans, too) that we have to play catch up in some areas ONLY because we are playing someone else’s game under “rules” created for their horses, not ours (or the Spaniards, or the Peruvians, or the Saudis, etc., etc., etc.).
first of all,I want one of those bling hats!
This has actually been a pretty good discussion (got a bit scary there for a minute!)
and I admire Tawna for putting her filly ‘out there’ for critique.
Back to the original questions about “keeper” foals and “untrendy” breeding philosophies…
back in the day, I was breeding racehorses, and one day I had a foal, who I just knew I did not want to sell to the track…
and he became my “keeper”.
And then, when I started on the path of him becoming a stallion, I did meet with some negativity. "A Thoroughbred?? - stallion? - it felt like if you did not have a WB you should not even come to the party.
But, I (like the rest of you) have my own breeding philosophies, and my own goals, and my own beliefs - which is Thoroughbred-centric…
I felt like I was swimming upstream, but that didn’t matter to me, I was doing what I wanted, what I thought was right, and I have been very lucky and things have gone well for me. Which of course has vindicated my program.
BTW shawnee Acres what a nice boy!!!
to paraphrase Shakespeare, “to thine own self be true”…
Daydream,
Actually dun/buckskin (And honestly not sure which one!) Is in the morgan breed! I have seen soem photos of a purebred that appeared to be a very golden buckskin or possibly a dunskin, he was GORGEOUS! And, BTW for those of you talking about TWH’s there is a strain (very rare) of TWH that has appaloosa coloring, true appaloosa coloring I might add
Hi, Daydream Believer! Been following your comments and think you are completely hitting the mark.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>I thought that there was spanish blood in the original saddlebreds and they were developed in colonial times using the spanish stock that was already in the Americas. I would love to see a cross back to spanish! I’ll bet that is lovely. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The ASB was developed by crossing America’s first breed of horse, the Narragansett Pacer (which was primarily of Andalusian and Barb blood) with the first Thoroughbreds that were imported into this country. The Thoroughbred breed had only been around for about 100 years at that time.
The ASB was based on the finest Andalusian, Barb, and English Thoroughbred stock. There are many ASB’s that appear quite baroque in their appearance.
Have you not seen our Andalusian x ASB’s and our Friesian x ASB’s? We have a breeding program in TASHR based on these crosses. I’ve got a registration from someone right in front of me and the pics of her Friesian x ASB look stikingly like an elegant Cleveland Bay. Maybe someone can post a pic of these crosses or you could go to the website. (Not trying to make this about the registry—just thought you’d like to see some examples!
Are you the breeder with the cremello mustang stallion?
KimPeterson–
I see no reason why someone wouldn’t want to use a well-made mustang in their sporthorse breeding program. Especially if someone were into endurance racing. I have two mustang mares that I am going to breed to my ASB stallion next spring and have had very competitive endurance racers tell me they want to know when the foals hit the ground. I think many modern breeding programs could definitely use an infusion of hardiness from certain breeds and types of horses.
I do love the Kiger mustangs!
Alright…I am going to stop for a cup of tea and attempt to do what they are paying me to be here for.
I was going to but I am not going to reply to Sonesta’s last post directly but will say that I think folks need to realize that alternative breeds are going to be gaining in popularity and competing for those folks who can’t afford an expensive WB or who just don’t want one. Just because we are breeding some other breed by choice with realistic expectations of our markets does not mean our animals are low quality. To look down upon us who chose this path and call us puppy mill or backyard breeders is elitist and snobby. 
Actually there are true duns in the Morgan breed! See this page for more info on them: http://www.duncentralstation.com/ . I believe the only colors that do not exist in the breed are tobiano and appaloosa coloring.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by camohn:
Interesting about the Kigers being mostly QH </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, we don’t stand by DNA testing alone in allowing horses into our registry but it is useful in looking at breed markers. Apparently they have found markers consistent with modern QH’s in the Kigers as well as some spanish markers. To my knowledge, there is no draft blood in that herd. I do think though that many of the Kigers are very iberian in their type and I wish our registry would be a little more open minded in accepting some of these horses even on a probationary status to see how consistent a type they produce…in other words breed them a few genations and see what they produce. They say that even half breds can look very “spanish” so that’s why they won’t allow horses that just look that way without a thorough knowledge of the herd’s history and recent past in particular.
The SMR inspectors went to look at the Kigers apparently and found running in the feral herds some horses that were definitely not spanish like QH’s and the DNA testing done by Dr. Gus Cothran confirmed the presence of some outside markers…so that basically meant that none of them were eligible unfortunately.
Yes, but hopefully it is because breeders are only showing off their very best. 
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Big Fred:
That’s an interesting last paragraph. I have to say that in the last two months on both this forum, and Ewarmbloods, I have only heard american breeders describe every single foal born as Stunning, the best, world class etc etc. Has anyone actually had an “average” foal, that’s average - better than some, not as good as some. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
