I think everyone here has stated that they are breeding excellent individuals for their breed/type of horse, not “middling individuals”
Oh, Cartier, I didn’t realize you were here in NC…but I haven’t been here that long (a little over a year), so, no, our paths have yet to cross. I have a kid riding my old dressage horse now, though, so perhaps I’ll get out to some dressage shows soon and we will.
(BTW, my username IS my name: P. Wynn Norman.)
Daydream,
Liek your idea of crossing on TB’s would be quite interested to see what you get
She may very well have been the best foal at the show that day. That’s great. Congratulations.
I have a TWH mare that can’t gait a lick 
She does, however; have an amazing trot and elevated,powerful canter. She has won numerous large halter classes and has wonderful substance. To top it all off, she has the disposition suitable for amateurs. I crossed her last year with my appaloosa stud and she produced a wonderful filly for me this spring - a very unconventional sporthorse 
QUOTE]I confess that I don’t understand breeders that claim that they are breeding for the “amateur” market. Why should an amateur have a less fancy horse than a pro? “Breed the best to the best and hope for the best” has worked for thousands of years. Notice that the saying is not “breed mediocre to mediocre to get horses for the lesser people to ride.” Obviously not every horse is going to be an Olympic competitor, but what’s the point of spending thousands of dollars and a lot of time creating another equine mouth to feed when you are breeding for mediocrity within your sport?[[/QUOTE]
Well, now I’m gonna get jumped on, but I’m going to say it anyway. And I am NOT pointing to anyone in particular. This is just my general opinion. I think the breeding of horses is much like the breeding of dogs. The GOAL should ALWAYS be improving the breed or type. Even with the goal of producing Olympic hopefuls, you will still get lots of mediocre horses that can find homes with the amateurs. Just like with dogs, the reputable breeders is breeding to improve and take the dogs in the ring to see what the judge says about the breeding. Many end up as pets because they don’t have what it takes.
You might find the following interesting. It is titled “The Backyard Breeder and Pupply Millers’ Big Old Book of Excuses.” In your mind, substitute “horses” for “dogs” and see if it doesn’t ring true.
The Backyard Breeders’ and Puppy Millers’ Big Book of Old Excuses
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When called on bad breeding practices, ALWAYS claim that you are merely an innocent posting as a favor to a friend or family member.
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Point out that everybody you know breeds this way, therefore it must be okay.
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Claim that “snobby show breeders” are only criticizing you because they want to corner the market on puppy profit.
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Claim that a Champion in the pedigree is just as good as 56 Champions in the pedigree. Not that it matters, because you doubt that there is such a thing as a dog with 56 champions in the pedigree.
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Claim that you are just trying to produce good pets, therefore good pets are all you need for breeding.
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When asked about health testing, enthusiastically point out that your bitch had a health checkup before breeding.
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Be sure to mention that you do not need to run such health tests as OFA, CERF, thyroid, cardiac, patellae, etc., because your dogs look healthy and had no visible problems at their last vet checkup.
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Point out that these tests cost too much and would cut into your profit margin. Be sure to champion the right of poor people to breed dogs.
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Confidently assure worried rescuers that no puppy you produce, or any of their puppies or grand puppies or great-grandpuppies will end up in shelters because you have a bunch of friends who have told you that they’d like a pup from your bitch.
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Point out that you don’t need Championships or working titles on your dogs because you are breeding for temperament and your dog is really sweet.
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Silence those annoying people who ask about your health guarantee by assuring them that buyers can return any sick puppies and you will replace it with another pup as long as it got sick within a certain amount of time of sale and as long as you don’t think the buyer did something to make the puppy sick.
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If your breed or line is rare (or you have a “rare” color, or believe your breed or color is rare), be sure to remind everyone that you do not need to show, temperament test, or health test your breeding stock because you are doing the world a service by continuing this “rare” breed/color/line.
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No matter what anyone else says, claim that you obviously know what you are doing because you’ve been breeding for a long time. Point to the hundreds of puppies you’ve pumped out over the years as proof.
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If this is your first attempt at breeding, make sure to remind everyone that you HAVE to breed your dog because how else are you going to learn how to breed?
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Assure everyone that your dog does not need to be shown because you were assured by someone at Petsmart/the park/the vet’s office/a friend that your dog is a perfect example of the breed.
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Always remember that “rare” colors, oversized or undersized dogs, and mixes of popular breeds are great selling points. Anyone who doesn’t think so is obviously not in tune with their customers’ wishes.
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Claim that your dogs are better because they are not inbred, as inbreeding obviously produces sick/stupid/deformed dogs. If breeding poo [as in “Cock-a-Poo,” “Peek-a-Poo,” etc.] dogs or other mutts, always point to “hybrid vigor” as proof of your dogs’ superiority.
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Remind everyone that you do not need a waiting list because your puppies are cute.
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Assure everyone that your puppies will not end up in shelters because they are cute.
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Claim that YOUR breed never ends up in shelters in your area, therefore your puppies will never end up in shelters.
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If asked why you think your dogs are breeding quality, point out that they “have papers.” Extra points awarded for using the phrase “AKC Certified.” Double points if those papers come from the Continental Kennel Club.
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If you sell a sick puppy, always blame the owners for making it sick. If the owners are clearly not responsible, blame their vet. (see #11)
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If presented with irrefutable evidence proving you wrong on any excuses you have used, pretend your server did not receive the post/e-mail.
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Claim that none of the rules of ethical breeding apply to you because you only intend to have one litter and therefore aren’t a “real” breeder.
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If all else fails, tell everyone who criticizes you to “get a life.”
Serena Galloway
IGCA rescue CO
I have absolutely no experience of native american horses, but would say this…The demands and requirements on and of the modern sport horse, have created the modern sport horse. At the moment, the ideal horse for both dressage and show jumping, seems to be the European warmblood (whatever that is now 
). If there were another breed or race which could do the job better, it would have done so by now. Buyers/breeders/riders etc aren’t totally stupid (just occassionaly ), so if they believed that the ancient-man-eating-tarpan-of-upper-mesapotamia could jump a 6 foot track and then run off a quick Olympic standard test, they’d be queueing up at the doors of the place I just said, which I don’t actually know where it is (help please 
).
If an American saddle-bred-half-pint-aloosa-super-size-that-oh-err-strawberry-please, is up to the job described above, then bring it on, no one is going to complain…quite the contrary…they’ll be queueing up at your door, and you’ll be a millionaire.
There will be hundreds of examples of American natives doing fantastic jobs in various sports, but they don’t prove me wrong, because I’m not saying they can’t do it, just that we’re not seeing them in Vegas or Athens
Well, I am happy this post returned to it’s original topic!!
Got a couple more pics of my filly this past weekend. I can’t wait till she is all braided up and “show” clean for Devon so I can get some more pics of her.
That’s uncanny timing, I’ve just posted about Apollo R coming good after starting out a bit runty, and in out opinion, is now parhaps a better horse than Argenta R who just sold for 12K at FENCES Elite, so I’m definately with you on “don’t judge 'em too soon”
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by aurum:
I don’t really understand this. Why is it not possible to have a good foal recognized, what is different with this filly? Can you enlighten me? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
aurum: I suspect tawny means because the foal is part American Saddlebred, part WB and part draft, so she is thinking that non-trad breeding will be counted against her in the show ring.
Tawny, I don’t think that will happen, because they aren’t going to know your breeding ~ they will only know what is standing in front of them. You have a beautiful filly…especially to YOU and that’s what counts.
I have to disagree somewhat with Cartier and Big Fred. YES, it has been my experience that most breeders are barn blind ~ stallion owners, too for that matter. It’s like the horses are their children or something and they can see no fault.
Of course, as a breeder you cannot advance if you cannot see the failures you’ve made along with your successes. So in that part I agree.
But the part I might take issue with is using the show ring as the final evaluation of your breeding success. There are trends and fashions in the show ring just like any place else…we all know this to be true.
In breeding dogs, horses, etc. the trends change over the years. I’ve seen this happen in German Shepherds, Quarter Horses, Appies, Bull Terriers, Arabs and Warmbloods… so I’m sure it happens in every species. And if you’ve been breeding long enough you learn that those “trends” do not always result in a better horse or advancement for the breed.
And in auctions…well, people as a rule are not individualistic, so they will always think that if everybody ELSE wants something, that “something” must indeed be very desirable.
Of course this is not always the case. Paris Hilton is a good example.
So Tawny, keep your keeper. Love her, value her…but don’t be disappointed that others do not share your vision or see her in the same way. They probably will not. That’s just the way the world works.
If you want to cut your own path, that’s great…but chances are you will be walking it alone and accept that.
It’s funny so many of us had “keepers” this year.
Here’s mine: (and she’s a non-trad too ~ Akhal-Teke and Arabian)
A BLM mustang is pretty much any mustang managed by the Bureau Of Land Management (ones that run on public land) and this is most of them. They do roundups, vaccinate etc. It can be of any breed and the majority of them started as spanish horses hundreds of years ago. A lot of other breeds have been mixed in since…drafts, ponies, etc. Anything that either escaped ranches or were turned loose. In some more remote areas bands remained more isolated and remain a purer type. The ones that come to mind are the Kigers, Pryor Mountain Horses and Nakotas. Folks near me are active in saving the Nakotas. They are little (and sometimes not so little!) horses that freejump 5 and 6’ fences and one is trained to GP dressage 
This really pretty blue roan color is common in the Nakotas. I would like to have one of those .
Do you have pics you can post of your horses? I would love to see them.
I’ve always been a jumper/eventer rider so I guess I didn’t see the kind of discrimination one might come up against in dressage.
Of course, anyone wanting to do sporthorse events would naturally not look for a horse that was built downhill, short-strided, light-boned, small feet, et. I’ve seen the kinds of Quarter horses, Apps, even Thoroughbreds you’re talking about but I’ve also seen many of the above that are perfectly suited for sporthorse competition.
I do have to admit that I’ve probably come across fewer Apps that seemed appropriate to me…
quote:
Originally posted by lindac:
…
You take the TOP WB’s in Europe and what do they look like? Chunky Saddlebreds. Their necks come out high and hingey, they have lots of hock action and anymore lots of front end action too. So they are breeding this “type” over there.
…
Yours in sport,
Lynn
Lynn,
I know it might sound hard for you to believe, but those of us who are breeding the pure ASB sporthorse and crosses (especially ASBxWBs) have noticed this very thing. They move very much like modern day wb’s and have an extremely elegant presence. They are also fast, have lots of stamina and heart, are very sound, and have the most intelligent, trainable minds. They are exquisitely sensitive without being crazy and are very versatile. Oh, and I forgot to mention the sheer comfort of their gaits! 
Those that see our horses and actually experience them see it for themselves as well.
As FRED was saying, function follows form, and many ASB’s are built extremely well for upper level sports. They cross quite naturally, and beautifully I might add, with WB’s. And they can hold their own, if bred with competitive sports in mind, against any other horse breed or type out there. This will have to be proven in time, but we’re working on it and believe in what we are producing.
Not to make this about ASB’s. The Europeans used their own native horse breeds to form the foundations for their wb’s. What is so unusual about American breeds being used, either being bred in their pure form for sporthorse, or being crossed with other breeds/ sporthorse types (including wb’s) to put our own unique American stamp on the sporthorse world?
excellent post daydream, it is about working with what you have/perceive to be the ideal for what youw ant to produce. And isn’t it about setting goals and working to acheive them anyways? Not that there shouldn’t be some sort of standard, but not EVERY horse has to fit into the classic “warmblood” standard to be a competitve hrose that excels in their given sport area. I know that cutting hroses for example are as far from the “ideal” warmblood standard as they come but my GOODNESS look at their atheltic abilities and willingness to get the job done! And I have known MANY cutters still working and competing into their 20’s. So form follows function, could a warmblood do that job, I doubt it, and likely their conformation would cause them to break down doing it. Likewise a cutters conformation probably wouldn’t hold up to grand prix jumping, but then thats NOT waht they were bred to do. So instead of slamming breeds/types for not fitting the “Warmblood standard” why don’t the warmblood breeders get mroe open minded as to how form and function are interelated
ruach…thanks for the complement on Cisco again.
It is a shame that so many people have the wrong impression of our breeds and jump to the wrong conclusion. I suspect the more we get our horses out there performing the more we will see that thinking finally change.
I really like the Andalusians (Just bought one this year) and have seem some Iberian Warmbloods that are nice movers, easy - calm, but light and forward with good collection AND extension…are those “untrendy” or “trendy” ? I haven’t bred any but like them just the same - I am guessing they are on their way up to trendy…but the crosses I think still remain in the untrendy area…
Also I am a bit untrendy as I like the older style bloodlines… Not so much the very modern for showjumping…
Wow, we’re all up and at 'em this morning! 
Now, where is “the baby kept me up all night” icon??? 
I have looked up Chokolate Confetti’s pedigree and his great-great grandsire on his fathers side was the ASB King Cambuscan foaled in 1944. King Cambuscan’s grandsire was Edna May’s King one of the great sires of the time.
I found a picture of Edna May’s King on the web at
http://re2.mm-a1.yimg.com/image/3958040
Doing a little more research I found that Confetti’s Great grandsire Chocolate Sunday is 3/4 ASB.
Here is his pedigree from the All Breed Database
I want to revise this topic to see how this foal is doing now that it would be 6 - I too have a different breeding program and am so proud of my four year old.
Bravestrom - the OP was banned from COTH. If you want an update on Maraposa you’ll have to contact the breeder privately.
