Cathy: I’ll cont. this off topic a bit longer to say what darn cute photos!!! 
n I also about died laughing that the 'puter starts cranking out the Jummy Buffett tunes when you log on… 
Ruach,
Well lets see if I can clarify for you, there is a LOT of discrimination agaisnt what are considered the “stock horse breeds” in sporthorse disciplines ESPECIALLY in dressage. Apps fall into that “category”. they are viewed as muscle bound, downhill built cowponies which is anything but true of many individuals in these breeds. I have competed on MANY MANY QH’s for example that excelled, but dressage trainers look down their noses at them (when they are SO SO suitable for the amteur or child riders). Apps to get a bad rap for a variety of things. People view them as “rat tailed, pigeyed and common” which yes there ARE some out there that fit that description. But they are not the norm. Also so many of the apps have become QH’s with spots and so they get the typical QH discrimination, whcih again, this is NOT what ours are. And in breeding for future sport hroses the warmblooders have so innundated the market place thinking with “nothing but a warmblood will do” mentaliy that it becomes VERY difficult to sell ours as foals, they almost HAVE to grow up and prove themselves (which can get pretty expensive!)
As I said…it’s a tough crowd and if you are breeder and post on this board you just gotta “cowboy up”! If you are feeling beat up you can buy one of my Blingie hats to make you laugh and feel better (if you have arrows sticking out of you I will give you a discount 
)
Gotta question for the group:
How many of you are breeding for Olympic World Class sporthorses that will be purchased and ridden by professionals and are actually keeping, training and gearing towards that arena?
Here is the toughie: Who has bred a horse that has actually WON an Olympic Gold Medal that posts on this board? Who has bred a horse that has won a prestigious international caliber event in dressage, eventing, show jumping? It would be fun to see who has “been there, done that”.
How many of you are breeding for the amateur ring in dressage, hunters, jumpers etc? How many of you are keeping, training and selling said offspring into that market? This market is insatiable and it is HUGE…
Just curious how many are completing the circle before sending off the “keepers” to prove their mettle in the heat of battle amid the sweat and dust of competition.
The LOOOOONG and winding road of foal to champion is hard and expensive work but extremely rewarding. So… percentage of you guys are proving your own youngsters (keepers)? Trotting babies on the end of a line is pretty easy stuff…not that there is anything wrong with that .
This is exactly why I do pony hunters and not true Olympic calibre sport horses (plus ponies are air plants and as Elaine noted they look like “My Little Pony”.)
Cathy
I have heard of this horse, Chokolate Confetti. My vet is an App sporthorse breeder and I believe he mentioned this horse to me when I spoke of crossing my stallion on App mares or crossing ASB mares with App stallions.
Is this stallion still around???
For my part, my experience is not long enough to really compare.
But, as a trainer, I can see the strenghts in a foal. I figure everyone is special, has a little something for him or her.
You are very lucky to have such a nice filly !
In a boldly transparent attempt to keep this on topic… I agree with everything everyone has said… especially P Wynn. 
About these Doodles… some are absolutely adorable… and think about it… no breed standard… no show and pet prices… they’re all $3K, the entire litter!!! We considered Doberdoodles… but we have Kafka kids… and if we took the only living sons of the Top Winning Doberman of all time and bred them to poodles, we would be drummed out of the Doberman Pinscher Club of American.
Maybe try my engagesaddles account you could be getting comcast spam blocked I have been having trouble with my mother emailing me as well, she swears I am ingoring her but they never come to my inbox??? I am using Thunderbird now instead of Outlook also… Anyway Engagesaddles@aol.com is my “saddle sale” email address -
Unico is doing great Richard worked him this morning said he is a bit lazy with the humid weather today…We haven’t taught him to ground collect yet to ship semen out from the farm but we are going to play with it this fall kicking around the idea of test breeding, my huggie horse, I can’t say enough about his temperment I have a 16yr girl coming to ride him once a week as I would like to see him do both Amt and childerns classes too later when he is showing…
I also have one that is average. My 4 yr old gelding (Dutch X Anglo-Trak) isn’t going to be a world beater & he has his flaws. He is worth much more to me sentimentally than what I could ever think to sell him for. He is out of a mare that is very special to me. I probably could have made a better sire choice, though I personally love the stallion. Without his dam, I probably wouldn’t be into horses now. 
Hopefully he’ll be shown, but I’ll be happy if all I do is have fun with him, I don’t care. I have a fancy one on the ground now & even though he’s only 5 months old, I see him as a better ticket back to the show ring than the 4 year old. 
I think when you breed non-traditional, you are going to get flamed no matter how nice your horses are or are not.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>you know bag of tulip bulbs… a grey mare </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
you’re a good husband
I would have liked the first one better also. But there is something about the second one that is striking. What is she?
Ruach Farms - Nope, no gait at all, and she has fantastic bloodlines. I have no clue how prevalent this is in the breed. I bought her because of her strengths and what I thought she could add to my breeding program (not to mention that I can put anybody on her). She is also a pinto, so I was really hoping for some amazing color crossed with my app, but ended up with a liver chestnut showing small signs of roaning 
Oh well, her conformation and temperment are everything I was hoping for, maybe I’ll get color next time
DB - ahh, but don’t you GET it?? If you don’t breed for the Olympics, then you’re not breeding sport-horses!
(nevermind, of course, that Polo, Horseball, Hunter, etc… are not in the Olympics… ahem)
Daydream Believer,
I am certainly not arrogant and what I was trying to say is that you need to move FORWARD whatever you are breeding. This has nothing to do with Warmblood, TB or ponies or whatever breed. If you want to be a breeder for the good and say “this horse is a keeper” then it should be a positive step forward in what you have bred, but if the product is less good than just ONE of the parents, then the goal is not achieved. It took me 20 years to get where I am now since 10 years and still I am learning and improving and improving.
I do not see a good thing in telling someone how wonderful that filly is if in reality it is not and I just want to please. Tawna had a good eye when she bought Maxamillion but he must be bred forward to bring better foals than this filly and I am sure he can. I have seen nicer foals by him and just because a horse has a nice color does not make it a good one or a keeper as you tend to say.
aurum-- With all due respect, many breeders here in America disagree with you entirely.
{quote]America has such nice breeds and I just do not understand why they have to be “modified” to “create” a Warmblood for competition, to try to re-invent the wheel that has been invented centuries ago already, as there are already Warmbloods bred for the Olympic disciplines and they excell perfect or why would everybody want them, buy them and is succeeding with them?
[/quote]
Warmbloods, in their current form as sporthorses, have most certainly not been bred for centuries.
The Europeans simply used what breeds they had access to create the sporthorse warmblood.
And as the warmblood is in an ever evolving state, I hardly see that it would be ‘reinventing the wheel’ by crossing our native riding horses (who HAVE been bred as riding horses for hundreds of years)on the warmblood. In fact, I feel that we can produce just as good here in a shorter period of time than it took European breeders as we have the RIDING stock already in place to base our breeding on and a European model to follow, if we choose.
Many of your native European breeds such as Gelderlanders, Groningens, and Frederiksborgs, had to be modified (and in the last 50 years I might add)by adding Thoroughbred, Arab and other blood to make them more suitable for upper level sporthorse disciplines.
Hanoverians, Oldenburgs, Holsteins, Westphalians were, for the most part, heavy coach, heavy military, and /or draught-type horses that had to be heavily modified to produce this increasingly lighter, sensitive, and refined sporthorse.
{quote}In Europe the people love to buy the American breeds in PURE breeding within their race. They buy them and import them as pleasure horses, not to compete in jumping or dressage competitions and NEVER anyone would buy a ASB cross or whatever to excell in the Olympic disciplines. I for one would love to have a nice Palomino or Buckskin PAINT not taller than 15.1 hh easy going to make me want to ride again as I am getting old and the WBs are now just too tall for me. The way down to earth is now getting too long…(quote}
That is wonderful that Europeans like to import American horse breeds in their pure form for pleasure riding there. After all, we have been in the business of producing top notch RIDING horses for hundreds of years, as I said before. Probably had something to do with our country being so large that we’ve produced such numerous, high-quality riding horse breeds.
{quote} But what is for sure, is the fact that as long as Americans do not understand the ongoing rules of breeding real Warmbloods and think that crossing “y” to “x” breed makes a Warmblood to be good enough for American competition riders, that long do WE in Europe have the market alone to fulfill their dreams.{quote}
There is no great mystery to understanding how to breed FOR a top level competition horse. (And hopefully that is what the horse will become.) After all, we can easily research and study the European breeding programs, inspection and performance systems, see the trend of what’s being bred-how it moves, how it’s conformed, and put our own breeding prowess to the task. I appreciate very much all that I have gleaned from the European breeding programs. I’m very glad you guys have those programs/models in place to learn from.
The fact that “YOU alone in Europe” have the ability to produce what Americans want to make our dreams come true should be enough kick in the pants to American sporthorse breeders to produce what Americans desire; since “YOU alone” dominate the economics of the sporthorse market, I for one want to see American breeders make money off of their own market.
{quote}I do not mean to be rude with this, it is just a “wake up” call before the train has left the train station…{quote}
I know that you did not mean that in a rude way so please understand that I do not mean this in a rude way: you guys will be getting the “wake up” call as Americans continue to breed better and better sporthorses, whether based on your warmbloods or based on increasingly popular alternative American breeds, and European breeders will begin to see a decline in their American market.
I make this analogy for the growing trend in this country to produce American and buy American:
Not so long ago the American car market really sucked. We produced crappy cars that were completely uninspiring, uneconomical, unreliable. European cars, Japanese Cars, et were much more desirable.
However, American car designers finally had a flash of brilliance; they decided to step out on a limb and began to actually offer CONCEPT cars (which had previously only been seen at trade shows) to the public. This proved to be wildly successful. Coupled with the fact that there was now better engineering, reliability, and quality, this brought mucho American dollars back home again.
I’m not saying that there won’t continue to be a market for European sporthorses here, it will just eventually be to a markedly less degree.
This is my prediction based on the current market as well as sporthorse breeding trend here in the United States.
All I can say is she’s freaking gorgeous and if a judge can’t see that then he obviously is blind to such beauty and correctness.
p.s. glad you are not showing against me at Devon
I’m throughly consfused pwynne, by your statements. What do you mean, that BECUASE we choose not toe breed warmbloods that we are breeding inferior stock with unknown bloodlines? Or that “crossbreeding” is wrong (the warmbloods “breeds” allow quite a bit of outcrossing)? I do not understand. I have a registered stallion of KNOWN bloodlines, whose sire repeatedly placed and won LARGE dressage breed shows on the west coast. As well as his offsrping. Against warmbloods, and he was an appaloosa which a fairly good eprcentage of TB blood. Would you say that becuase Hilda Gurney placed him first over many otehr warnbloods that he is inferior?? Would you say that I am a backyard breeder becuase I SEARCHED the US for a young stallion that had the type of conformation, movement and ability to excell in his areas of sport? Becuase I searched for one who sire had also proven himself. Becuase my mares are registered mares eitehr with foundation appaloosa bloodliens, TB bloodlines or both? Why am I considered any LESS a respnsible breeder becuase I choose to breed a non-warmblood breed?? Please let me know
Not sure if alexandra was adressing ehr remarks about “barn blind color breeders” in my direction, BUT we FIRST select for bllodlines, conformation and movement. But we also WANT color in order that are hroses are recognized for what they are, appaloosas. Therefore we took two years searching to find the right combination of movement, bloodlines, disposition and COLOR for our stallion, we wanted a 100% color prodcuer as we had planned to cross on TB amres. We had to go all the way to Idaho to buy what we wanted. I looked all over the east coast and did look at and consider some non-homozygous hroses but frankly found nothing worth having. Color is important, not THE most improtant thing, but after showing a registered app mare last season that had no color, and having people think she was a warmblood I WANT COLOR!
Tawna,
You know, everybody has opinions - which may differ depending on the amount of caffiene they have had for the day. In this same way, judges, inspectors, riders, and BUYERS (!!!) have different opinions. The two critical things are:
- You see your breeding goals being met and have fun with your horses.
- The rider or buyer of your foal finds the perfect horse that they love to pieces.
Anybody else can put other things first, but most of the horse-poor breeders that I know would rather produce reliable offspring that are EASY TO OWN (ie, ride, love on, work with, etc) over special hype (ie, by super stallion or a world champion).
So, on that note, I’d like to say that I’m not trashing your filly-I think she’s gorgeous! She may not fit a few folks needs, but there are a lot of other people in the world that don’t plan on doing the olympics or having the next super stallion. (I admit, I CANNOT sit the trot of most olympic caliber horses - flame away.) Please don’t think that everybody on this forum is always on the attack, there are lots of us that can appreciate opening that picture and seeing a beautiful, athletic, leggy, refined filly in a gorgeous color! Congratulations!
PS- She’s just my type!
So sorry, I went back and edited my posts to make the one more clear and the other more accurate
Like your trot shots Tawna but I don’t want to make this about your filly.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Well, now I’m gonna get jumped on, but I’m going to say it anyway. And I am NOT pointing to anyone in particular. This is just my general opinion. I think the breeding of horses is much like the breeding of dogs. The GOAL should ALWAYS be improving the breed or type. Even with the goal of producing Olympic hopefuls, you will still get lots of mediocre horses that can find homes with the amateurs. Just like with dogs, the reputable breeders is breeding to improve and take the dogs in the ring to see what the judge says about the breeding. Many end up as pets because they don’t have what it takes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with a lot of points here. In general, a person can’t come on this forum, with this “I’m the underdog” routine, taking sanctimonious sideswipes at “cookie cutter” foals and WB Sporthorse breeding in general and expect that no one will respond. It is hypocritical to say that the only ones who can comment about Sporthorse breeding are the self-proclaimed “un-trendy breeders.”
Along the lines of Sonesta’s post above, some aspects of this remind me of Doberdoodles, Golden-doodles, Shepadoodles, Cockadoodles… They fit a specific market and people love ‘em… and breeders are making big bucks breeding all kinds of doodles.
And they are pricy puppies, with no show expenses to finish champions, no health screening or National databases tracking breed disorders. Basically breeders can make any claim they want. There is no objective standard of review or accountability.
We have friends who wanted Portuguese Water Dog, but they ended up paying a bit more for a highly touted Shepadoodle, thinking that they would magically get only the best qualities of the Poodle and the Shepard. What they have is a hyper, dysplastic dog with various other severe health problems, who does not like children (my friends have two). Turns out that the Shepard and the Poodle used in the mix were mediocre specimens to start with (possibly because reputable breeders who screen their breeding stock and their breeders do not allow their dogs to be bred to produce “Doodles” etc.). The breeder of the my friend’s Shepadoodle does not stand behind the dog… once the check cleared the bank my friends were on their own. There is no Shepadoodle rescue to help them find a more suitable home for the dog… what they have is a $1,200.00 mutt that is as miserable with them as they are with him.
I am NOT saying that “trendy breeders” have greater health problems… but they do have unlimited freedom to make claims. In general, if you want specific traits in a mature animal, your odds are better going with proven bloodlines and proven breeding crosses.
