To some degree you are right Daydream. I really think that people couldn’t beleive how nice my stallion was at the USDF show in MArch I got SO many comments on what a lovely mover he was and how his disposition was so incredible, and they all seemed amazed that an app can be that competitive. Course the mare I competed on last year was 1/2 app 1/2 TB (but IS a registered appaloosa) grey mare. I showed her a good bit and rode her in a judging clinic. Of course everyone was trying to guess her breed, frankly she comes across as a warmblood, imagine their shock when I said she was a registered appaloosa! At the judging clinic even AFTER I “confessed” I had a woman ask, well is she for sale??!! But no way! This mare is going to produce some dynamite foals I feel, we will see next year as she is bred to my stallion for a may foal
He is lovely… I can’t quite understand how to read the pedigree… and what is the figure to the right of the screen?
Edited: Oh, it isn’t his pedigree, it’s the performance record of his sire Heartbreaker 
Hey, Big Fred, I had one disaster. Truly. Not just below average, but a real loss. From day one and he never improved. The mare is no longer in my barn, even though she had given me a lovely filly that grew up very nicely.
Do I shout it from the rooftops? No. Have I told other people, especially people who were trying to get started in breeding and asked me what (little) I have learned? Yes.
I sometimes call my foals “babies.” But I also look at them long and hard. They will have pricetags that vary. I also know that I sometimes miss things and later need to rethink. I also do not think I am unusual as a breeder.
For purposes of this discussion, I have had one “keeper” filly. She did exceedingly well in breed shows as well as through Second Level. Now she is pregnant with her first foal (though she has had an ET foal that was very, very nice despite a tough beginning). We will see what she produces. I have heard some people tear her apart, but they tended to be folks who had horses showing against her. 
I can tell you her faults. But as a baby (oops), she was quite an eye catching filly with much presence and very correct conformation and she has been a favorite of most of the knowledgeable folks who have observed her over the years.
I have another in the pasture right now that I am watching. She is a plain brown wrapper in every way, but has something special that really speaks to me. We’ll see how she develops. Time and work will tell.
About those DoodleDogs: A few days ago I was talking to a guide dog trainer and she said they had a number of Doodles in training, but the joke among trainers is “You’d better give them to someone who’s totally blind because they’re so ugly.”
But if you want to pony up $3K, it will be beautiful to you.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”> Their origins were never quite decided upon but what I believe is the most likely scenario is that Figure’s (the first Morgan) sire was most like a Spanish Barb/Mustang…whatever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No way, Sharon! FRIESAN for sure!!! Rumor had it that Figure’s sire was a horse referred to as “The Dutch Horse” and there is also a strong possibility that his dam’s dam was owned by the same person as his sire and so he himself MAY have been a touch inbred.
All of which makes a lot of sense when you think about it: inbreeding CAN result in smaller size and, of course, is known for the way it can “stamp” traits, i.e. establish prepotency. Then if you look at the Friesan type and compare it to the classic Morgan: WAVY mane, excellent action, solid bone, upheaded carriage, large eye and small ear, etc., etc. It’s intriguing, isn’t it?
[I don’t know how much of this is actually true, but I do recall these possibilities being bandied about quite a bit when I worked for AMHA, which included frequent interaction with the then-director of the Morgan Horse Museum. I always found the history fascinating.]
Big Fred, I will be the first in your experience to jump up and down with my hand in the air and say, “ME! ME! I bred an average horse.”
I have a yearling who is nice. He was site champion at his RPSI inspection. He is special to me. My trainer wants to buy him, but I won’t sell…yet. He’s not going to be a GP jumper. He’s not going to be a world-beating hunter. What he will be is a nice (unfortunatly BIG) gelding with whom I can get back into showing. Which is exactly what I wanted, but he’s going to be a little larger than I expected.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Big Fred:
This years Heartbreaker x Calvados x Burggraaf x Polydor started off life very, very average. But Bernard Le Courtois and Arnaud Evain, selected him for the November FENCES sale, so what the hell do we know!!! They must have seen something, he’s turned into a real cracker…and for the record, we call ours “the Kids”. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Photo please ? You know I am a Calvadosaholic !
Yours in sport,
Lynn
She is gorgeous Tawna! I cannot wait to see her at Devon!
I know what you mean about being different, though on a smaller scale. I brought my perfect for me wb/tb/qh/paint gelding to a PtHA show where the horses were all stock horses. My did we look out of place! But my boy was definitely more sporthorse type and that’s what I prefer. He didn’t place very well in the 2 yr old class against all the Arnold horse-a-neggers! BUT the cowboy judges did give him a ribbon in the tobiano color class
Marsha
(Tawna, I met you at the Hilltop inspection, wasn’t sure if you remembered me)
Anyway…back to the topic at hand. Ruach asked about plans earlier.
I have four purebred foals on the way of my own next season, and one from an outside mare bred by shipped semen…also purebred and the first ever concieved this way in our breed. 
There are two cross bred babies that I will watch with great interest…one out of a welsh section C mare and the other a welsh/arab cross. My foals of this year are looking pretty good but it will be a few years before I can get them started.
My short range plans are that I am going to expand my purebred program in the next few years. I am purchasing several well bred weanlings with the idea of a second stallion prospect in the future and will watch these little guys carefully and pic the right one. I am also buying another mare…a loud overo…lovely mover and nice temperment to cross with Cisco next year.
I am also buying some colts to be gelded and started as sale prospects. We are expecting them in from Wyoming and S. Dakota in October. I am very excited as these are the first spanish mustangs that will be of performance age that I will market to smaller adults and juniors for the disciplines where their talents lie. Of the two oldest…now two year olds, one is an adorable pretty headed buckskin sabino with lovely hunter movement and another is a flashy grulla sabino that just says dressage pony to me. I made a trip out west this spring and found these guys as well as two yearlings, three weanlings and the two year old filly.
for the long term, I think I will keep my eyes open for some nice TB mares to cross to see if I can breed something a little taller and try a little crossbreeding as well. I think this breed will cross well that way and we’ll have a cross very similar to a connemara/TB in looks and ability.
Anyway, those are my untrendy plans!
This is quite an interesting thread!
Food for more thought on the ‘cathcing up to European WB’ discussions. We can’t forget the environment in which many WB breeds have evolved. Geographicaly small areas with VERY large number of horses and a culture willing to follow the breed director; such as gelding stallions that don’t pass approvals, did speed up and focus their breed type. This will never happen in America (culture wise) and it takes much longer for a single breeder to do the same. Just numbers: money and # of horses used for breeding and culling.
Then there is the system of large prof barns bringing along many prospects as a business that really doesn’t compare (in numbers again) to our individual farms. How many places can you see a hundred or more young horses in one day? It’s very hard for American breeders to send out young horses and get the results they need to make a profit.
More numbers: Cost of showing and miles to shows. How much better could we prepare horses if we could show every weekend within an hour of home!!! Not just the small schooling shows… but competing against the best of the best.
I think we breed MANY GREAT horses in this country. We just lack in our system. We are spread out so much and have so many hurdles we have to take alone. So, many horses don’t end up in the right hands with the right rider or financial backing. Our riders spending the big bucks still tend to go to Europe. That hurts us too. We have very serious industry issues… progress has been good last 10 years but we need more!
just something to think about.
gail
http://www.cloverlone.com
Spotted Holsteiner Sport Horses
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by shawnee_Acres:
Aurum et al,
I AM NOT BREEDING WARMBLOODS do you UNDERSTAND THESE WORDS. I am breeding american SPORTHORSES. Not the same thing, nor do I WANT to breed warmbloods. I breed FOUNDATION APPALOOSAS with soem TB bloodlines. I don’t care or need your “standards” to measure my NON-WARMBLOODS up against. And by the way, the warmblood “breeds” (which they are NOT breeds, but types) are basically CROSSBREDS! GRanted they have been refined thru many years but guess what you guys STILL take TB’s and arabs and cross them back in, so whats the diff??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Can you walk the talk is the question … clearly.
I am not going to argue your interesting
take on european breeding philosophies and
practises … again everyone is entitled to
an opinion, caveat this does not make it fact.
Yours in sport,
Lynn
Shawnee - I will keep your stallion in mind when I have a “keeper” filly by my stud. He currently is throwing 93% color so I can’t really complain. Besides, she is showing signs of color, so who knows what she will look like in the spring
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Ruach Farms:
quote:
The Europeans used their own native horse breeds to form the foundations for their wb’s. What is so unusual about American breeds being used, either being bred in their pure form for sporthorse, or being crossed with other breeds/ sporthorse types (including wb’s) to put our own unique American stamp on the sporthorse world? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bravo! My sentiments exactly. Why not create something American that people will come here to buy instead of doing exactly what everyone else is doing? I think we just have to challenge the mindset that rules right now and show folks that our own native breeds are just as capable of these sports.
WEll you do have a lovely filly Tawna. But here is my two cents worth on things. I decided a few years back that I wanted to breed MY ideal horse, not what “everyone wants” etc. I didn’t want to flood the market with them either, as obviously I coudl not keep all of them. My personal ideal was a distinictly “American” horse. (well we all know that there are no “native” american hroses but, I didn’t want to breed european types). My husband being native american and the nice appaloosas I dealt with over the years helped me to make my choice. We decided on an appaloosa sport horse, that is of foundation appaloosa bloodlines crossed with primarily TB blood. I would liek to “infuse” a bit of arab at some point. I do also want to cross mys tallion on a holsteiner, out of curiosity, but not as part of the “program”. I am steering away from QH type appaloosas, there are enough of those out there. The stallion we chose was for several reasons, one I had a mare whose sire was the grandsire of the stallion (a TB) and she is fabulous. Also the sire of my stallion ( 1/2 TB 1/2 appaloosa) not only won a world championship at the ApHC world show in dressage suitability, but more importantly won many breed shows in california (dressage breed shows) both him and his offspring under very tough judges. So far my choice has been right on, as our young stallion made is dressage debut this year and will go to his first CT this fall. His first foals (he had a few foals on west coast, but these are first east caost foals) are very nice and waht I was trying to achieve. We have two this year, the filly I am going to keep, but have had many offers on her and it appears that the colt is going to be sold, as a dressage and sporthorse sire prospect. So waht we are doing ahs been well received so far. However, it is NOT about what everyone else wants in my eyes, it’s about producing a distinctly american type and bred sporthorse that excels in many areas of sport. And the color is an added bonus!!
I like that I know exactly what I am getting within reason with my keeper foal his gaits, temperment, and jumping style…I rode his momma over fences and hunting for years and his father too… so if he swings either way genetically I will still be thrilled…so far the only thing I know is he is a cool cucumber - I love his trot and he is grey…
I agree, DB. I think there a lot of high quality individuals from different breeds that could have SO much to offer a sporthorse breeding program.
Everyone is so quick to say that Arabs and Thoroughbreds should be the only two other breeds allowed in a WB breeding program because that’s what the Europeans used. And it just cracks me up. Did it ever occur to them that maybe, just maybe, they used Arabs and Thoroughbreds because THAT’S PRETTY MUCH ALL THEY HAD?? lol!!! There were no Quarter horses in Europe in the 1800’s, no Saddlebreds, no Morgans, no Mustangs! So what were the Europeans going to use? The horses they had available, of course! And the best among them!
The Europeans did not try crossing other breeds and then decide that Arabs and TB’s were the best match. They used what they had, period. And that never meant, nor will it EVER mean, that those 2 breeds are the best and only crosses possible. 
here is a link to my stallion and I at the USDF show in March, he is a five yeard old this is his first ever dressage show second time ever shown under saddle at all:
http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prsm.dll?eventorder…=0&album=0&adjust=-1
http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prsm.dll?eventorder…photo=0455001T090001
Have to find a place to upload pics of his babies
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Ruach Farms:
Daydream Believer–
Your stallion does look very Lusitano in appearance. I really like his coloring. I wouldn’t be suprised to see you have good success with your breeding program. There is a growing market of people out there who want something unconventional, easy to handle, versatile, comfortable, and smaller.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks! I think a lot of folks just hear the word mustang and shut down confusing what we have with the typical BLM horses…they are so different. I am hoping that they will catch on nicely with this emerging market. The cool thing is that while they are small and easy to handle and ride, they have real talent and should train to the FEI levels with little trouble. I also finding they are very athletic jumpers.
He thinks going down the grid is great fun but I had trouble with him bouncing the in and out at first…very scopey for his small size. I may find myself eventing him next year just for fun. My focus is mainly dressage with him but I’d like to show his versatility and trainability and am thinking of showing him in harness as well. We inherited a nice training cart with our new farm that is perfect sized.
Shawnee, I think I mentioned it once before, but we still have a number of appaloosa stallions left in the Spanish Mustang Registry. They are probably as close as the original Nez Perce appies as could be found with no outcrosses to anything else. I even know of one young snow cap stallion in N. Dakota. I don’t know if they would fit into your program at all but they might help you bring back some of that original type.
Wow lots going on here. My two cents worth since I breed an “alternative” sport horse type. First, what is the definition of “less good” than either parent Aurum? THere are SO many factors in a foal that one photo cannot portray, disposition, movement, conformation (yes a photo CAN make a horses conformation look MUCH WORSE than in reality is is), trainability etc. and who’s to say, except the breeder, whether or not the foal OVERALL exceeds either parent in the COMBINATION of these traits. THere are slight conformational “anomolies” that I will happily put up with in order to have a horse that excells in otehr areas for example. Secondly, I want to say that breeding for what a MINORITY of SELECTIVE people want instead of what the masses want is not “backwards” at all. Just yesterday my breeding program was “confirmed” to me. We purchased a stallion a year and a half ago, an appaloosa sport type stallion. We are NOT using any wamrbloods in our program. And out of a foal crop of only two foals, one of which we did not market for sale, we sold one, a colt. And according to the purchaser he was “perfect”. Now is he the perfect horse? No, not by any means. But he is perfect for what she apparently is trying to breed for (as he will be her future stallion) and he is also very much what we were trying to accomplish when we began with this stallion. So apparently there IS a market, and possibly a growing one, for these alternative horses. People get TIRED of teh same old, same old, and european warmbloods are becoming a bit “ho-hum”. That coupled with the generally EXORBITENT prices of these horses makes the small breeder look at alternatives. I can EASILY offer a nice, well conformed, beatiful moving and loudly colored sport horse foal for MUCH MUCH less than the equivalent warmblood would cost. And guess what, my stallion goes out and has proven in a few shows that he can and does shine in their company, win against them and act like he has a BRAIN which frankly more and more warmbloods I see today simply act nutty, either thru breeding or thru training, not sure.
WEll my appaloosas are also descendants from the spanish horses. The Nez Perce indian tribe captured horses that were brought over originally by the spanish. Some of those horses did dispay the appaloosa color/characteristics. The indians did not ALWAYS select for color, they moreso selected for tough, hardy stock and DID practice selective breeding and gelding. It was a relatively closed herd in the Snake River area of Idaho. However, after the tribe attempted to flee to Canada, the US military captured their hroses, killed many and the remainder were put up for auction. many of these wonderful hroses were then interbred with a variety of breeds. In the 1930’s George Hatley began looking for the best appaloosa stock he could find, everywhere. He traveled to farmers etc. buying up the stock that seemed the most true to the original type. But unfortunately many ahd been cross bred to such breeds as drafts. So he began a process of selective breeding and introduced arabian blood through the Ferzon son Ferras into his program. A few other breeders began to also recerate the breed as best they could from what was left. Draft characteristics as well as pony characteristics were dissallowed, and some of the appaloosa used traced even to such breeds as the morgan horse and saddlebreds. At anyrate this is the history of my breed, which has allowed outcrossing to arabs, TB’s and QH’s up to the present. Unfortunately (in my opinion) the QH influence has taken over a large part of the appaloosa breed, so we are goign back to the more original bloodlines and only using the TB (and hopefully arab at some point) in our breeding program
