Dual topic.. "Keeper" foals and "untrendy" breeding philosophies

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by shawnee_Acres:
I think everyone here has stated that they are breeding excellent individuals for their breed/type of horse, not “middling individuals” </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the problem is that some folks think that if you aren’t into the breed or type that they are, it’s “middling?” They aren’t coming right out and saying it but it’s been insinuated several times.

I cannot believe how far off the poster’s original topic this has come. It has turned into an us against them thread and an argument over who has the nicer filly and that is not what it should be. This was an invititation from Tawna to other non traditional sport horse breeders to talk about their programs and their dream foals…not to debate whether or not we should be breeding what we are breeding or whether we are backyard breeders because we aren’t focusing on trying to breed the next olympic champion.

I think the disconnect is when someone says that they are breeding for the amateur market…the other person has a completely different mental picture of what qualities an ammie horse has. That brings up all sorts of images in some folks heads…Warmblood breeders might think this means lower quality WB’s that did not make the cut for instance at some inspection and were sold cheap. Some people might get the mental picture of a downhill built short strided QH. Some must think it means “average” horses of whatever breed.

Instead the vision of those folks are that their focus is on breeding high quality stock that could do upper levels under one rider but would be quiet enough and sensible enough for your average amateur also. It’s not that they are breeding for average at all…rather they are breeding for outstanding qualities like a temperment that an ammie could get along with and enjoy yet still packaged in a nice moving competitive mount or maybe a smaller horse for smaller people but with the ability to still perform at the FEI level in dressage or be just as happy going on a trail ride or going camping…those are also outstanding traits.

Will those horses end up at the olympics? Hard to say…time will tell. Does that mean because they weren’t bred with the olympics as a goal in the breeders mind that they are merely “average” or common or shouldn’t be bred at all? No, I don’t think so at all. I think they are very specialized and fill a very important niche in the market and some breeders are very wise to focus on this since it is a much larger market than the olympic riders. This is just my take on the Ammie horse thing and where I think we are misunderstanding each other.

took the worlds right out of MY mouth! Oh well, I’ll jsut crawl back into my (spotted!) hole!

Tawna, your filly is stunning! Really lovely! I don’t blame you for keeping her!

Like you I am breeding something “different.” My breed is Spanish Mustang and my young stallion’s first show was this past weekend. I was thrilled beyond my wildest imagination at how well behaved he was and how well received he was by the judge and fellow competitors. I must have been asked 15 times what breed he was by someone and had several comments from folks who wanted one just like him. I had a brag thread up here Monday but it didn’t get many comments and is on page two by now…dunno why but perhaps off breeds just aren’t of as much interest to folks here.

Here is the thread

I have one filly out of my crop this year who is nearly the image of her sire but has some wonderful traits from her dam as well. She is definitely the best of both. I’ve been approached at selling her but would only do so to the most perfect performance home…and I really don’t want to sell her when it comes right down to it! I was watching her canter in little circles last night with clean changes and literally doing pirouettes in play with her siblings.

This is the filly that is my poster child:

Golden Dream

Golden Dream again

Like Shawnee, my focus is on American lines and I have little interest in importing anything from anywhere else but rather to show folks what fabulous horses and ponies we have right here in the US already. Each to their own but I’ve always banged my own drum and cut my own trails rather than follow the popular route.

I agree completely with Pintopiaffe and several others…do what pleases you. You will find others who will be impressed with your horses also. There are lots of people ready to accept something other than a “cookie cutter” horse if it suits their purposes. Best of luck with her!

Tawna24, I think I’d like to respond to your longer post with something specific you may want to consider…and I’m trying to say this as tactfully as possible, OK–and as usual, people should and will feel free to disagree with me.

Your filly is cute, but she DOES have some concrete flaws that are not a matter of preference, but rather of performance. It isn’t that there’s “no possibility,” but some of her flaws, well, someone who hasn’t developed horses to “X” level (I hate to use any other term, don’t want to sound snooty or anything) may not realize are pretty important.

One example of this is your filly’s forearms and gaskins. Now, granted, it’s super hard to tell just from pictures, but for a sporthorse to be competitive beyond the lowest levels (and surely you aren’t breeding “merely” for that–right?), it needs not just movement, but strength–as in “carrying ability.” The weaknesses in your filly in her gaskins and forearms MAY (not a certainly, but a possibility) prevent her from having (or reproducing as a broodmare) the kind of carrying ability that will make collected work easy for her to accomplish.

Similarly, her quarters may (another BIG may) lack carrying ability and the power it might (might) take to be competitive against the best in the dressage arena today (at any level, but especially at the lower levels in particular where the “trendy” warmblood mover, including its power and push, nails it over others). In addition, there’s a possibility that her hocks, given their angle, will not function effectively for such challenging movements as pirouettes and half passes. She may do them, but she may not hold up.

These conformation issues are not matters of “trend,” they are matters of form following function. It is probably one of the issues you know you have to deal with with Saddlebreds: they have some stupendously amazing traits that suit the sport of dressage, but they also have some traits that don’t, such as the “sitability” (bringing the hocks under, flexing the joints in the hind end, and lowering the quarters) expected as one moves up the levels.

So, in sum, my argument is that it really isn’t a matter of “trend” at all. It’s a matter of function. When I cull, it is usually because I know that the baby simply won’t function well enough to be worth raising, usually due to significant conformation or movement glaws (and occasionally, a temperament so awful that I can’t ignore it not matter how hard I try).

That said, there are always exceptions to the rule…but exceptions rarely, if ever, “breed true.” I had one pokey, ordinary baby whom I thought would do nothing beyond the lowest level, who proceeded to pop around a preliminary level course the first time he’d ever schooled x/c at all. Heaven knows how he did it, but it seems in spite of my opinion of him, he’s capable enough to at least get further than most ponies who event.

But I’d still wouldn’t (and hardly did when I sold him) “bank” on it happening, especially not in a breeding program.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Kyzteke:
Trailblazer: you have shown over and over and OVER again you have basically NO knowledge of the sport of dressage & no knowledge of the basic type of movement desired for most of the FEI-type sports. You don’t breed WBs, you don’t breed dressage horses, you didn’t recognize WELTMEYER for heaven’s sake when a video of him under saddle was shown (AND you critized his trot ). Your knowledge base is close to ZERO on these matters, so why do you keep piping up with your opinion?

Just to stir the pot? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Weltmeyer isn’t my cup of tea. I don’t see what is wrong with that. I would dare say I have at least as much knowledge of dressage as you do, if not more. The fact that you are unable to express any criticism of him shows how little you know. Barn blind much?

Anyway, you’re right, I don’t breed WBs. Do you breed Clydesdales? How is this even relevant?

I went to both aurum’s and Tawny’s websites. Just judging from what I saw I don’t see how aurum got to be the one you’re not supposed to disagree with. From her authoritative tone, I would have expected more, I guess. But her horses, while nice for the most part, did not blow me away. Your mileage may vary, of course!

Not trying to stir any pot. It was aurum who posted a picture of her filly with the implication that it was unequivocally better than Tawny’s filly. Both fillies have flaws, and which one you prefer is just a matter of personal preference. I probably wouldn’t breed either of them. But that doesn’t mean they can’t become great horses.

And regarding puppy mills, the closest comparison would be to the huge WB breeding operations in Europe. I’d say that on the whole, American breeders are much more responsible!

Oh, and like with the word “mustang”, when people hear the word “Saddlebred”, they tend to dismiss them as well. That is until they come around mine and actually ride them. Then they’re like “Wow! I had NO idea.”

People are becoming more and more into the ASB crosses. I don’t know of a single breeder with the crosses (especially the ASB x baroque types) that have a problem selling them for very good money.

Kyzteke - slight correction, Mara has no draft in her.

I have at the moment three keepers. All are of “normal” WB breeding.
All three of them are keepers because of at least one reason: They are better than their mothers and therefore a step forward in my breeding.
My breeding goal other is to breed a horse that is good to look at, healthy, easy to ride for everybody including amateurs with good (above average) movement. Ofcourse I would like to have once a FEI competing horse, but the goal is different. I am not striving at that and nothing else, but if there would be an FEI horse under them or a stallion - well great !
I do not try strange/uncommon combinations for one reason: The risk of these combinations is for me too high to get horses that do not fit my goal and therefore are not marketable. I stick to proven bloodlines and crosses.
If I strive to breed a very good horse I might leave the aspect nice to look and and easy to ride out of my thoughts. I would with some stallions maybe get to a horse with high potentail, but one that only professionals could deal with. So I do it differently. That does not mean that I loose the quality of gaits out of my eyes, just that I include the rideability and other criteria in my thoughts.
I can consider myself lucky that I had sofar just one disappointment and the rest was all above average.
I also consider myself not barn blind as I am working with some very professional and longtime breeders from whom I learned and still learn a lot. I have more the tendancy to find the “bad” things in my horses than to say they are stunning, world class and so on.

The keepers are:
A Sandro Hit filly now two that is very pretty ith good gaits including good walk and good conformation. I have no actual pictures of her but quite a few people wanted to buy her immediatly who wer actually in the barn to buy stallion prosepects. She showed a natural talent to collect herself and to “sit” on the hindleg when she was a foal and yearling. I cannot wait for the wnter/Spring when she will be started longing and under saddle.
A 3yo by Don Frederico who is very easy to ride and sit. Nice to look at, loves to be touched and groomed - a ladies horse. She has some faults in what we call “fundamant” meaning front- and hindlegs, but some that I can easily life with and try to improve again by choosing the right stallion.
The third keeper is a Florencio filly. She has three very nice gaits and seems to have inherited the temperament of her father as far as one can tell from a yearling. She is at the moment also a keeper.
All keepers are not keepers forever. One reason is that everything has in the end a price. And
my keepers are keepers unless something else comes along to replace them. Meaning unless I breed something where I thing it is a step forward and improvement.
I always said that my Prince Thatch mare is a keeper, but now I have a sale pending and she might be gone in two weeks (Do not ask - I am not looking forward to that awful moment to load her into the other people’s trailor…). She produced tow very nice fillies that I have and so she can go on to give joy, fun and success to another breeder. She will be going into very good hands.

COming to color breeders that are in my eyes in a lot of cases barn blind:
A colorful horse of mediocre quality still finds buyers that are blinded by the color (hence the success of lots of color breeders and lots of people trying to jump onto the color train).
But a horse from a program merely bred towards color of mediocre quality where the genes worked not out can not be sold easily and often without making a profit at all.
So those horses one does not want to have(breed). One can overcome that by choosing the “right” parents being homozygeous in color to be sure to have always the right color or one can try to select the best colored horses one can find and take the risk of getting plain horses. The latter being still good enough to be sold as good riding horses. In my eyes the latter is the better way.

By the way: Gwen/Aurum once also did uncommon crosses by introducing color into her breeding. But her main goal was never the color as is but the quality.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”> Wow…that is arrogant to assume that just because YOU believe that breeding to a warmblood is breeding forward that everyone else should as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don’t speak for Gwen, but do you think that maybe what she was saying is that the positive contributions of the Saddlebred phenotype have already been incorporated into Warmblood Sporthorse breeding years ago and refined by thousands and thousands of breedings over the past 40 or so years, so that - in this context - adding more Saddlebred is going backwards (so it is not a value judgment per se, and reflects knowledge rather than arrogance)?

Just a thought

Editorial comment: Personally, I think there is a healthy market for what Tawna and TASHR are breeding… I would even go so far as to say that they are one of the few groups on this forum with a growing market share. I think many people want a pretty horse that is comfortable to ride and versatile… and the average owner has zero intention of owning or competing an FEI horse. (and now I’m out of smiley face icons )

1 Like

Agreed…it doesn’t change what I like either or my future plans. Like you, I think there is real market opening up for non traditional sport horse breeds. We have come full circle and like Fairview said, the temperments are getting so difficult on modern warmbloods that many adult riders are looking for alternatives now.

I don’t put down other peoples stock because they breed something I don’t personally like and I can drool over a lovely horse of any breed to include warmbloods. Live and let live.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by aurum:

Sorry Tawna, you know that I like the stallion Maxamillion a lot but I would cross him to WBs instead of moving backwards. And what about the gaits in a Saddlebred? They may show up and then there is no way the horse can compete against the other WBs.

Breeding for quality and sport means breeding forward not backwards.

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aurum…this is what you said that led me to the conclusion I reached. You specifically said she should breed to WB’s instead of saddlebreds and you next paragraph spoke of moving forwards instead of backwards in a breeding program. Sorry if I came to the wrong conclusion with what you meant but I think it’s easy to see how I got that meaning from your earlier comments.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>That conformation is something I would expect from hunters, not from jumpers or dressage horses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trailblazer, I am very interested in this. Why would you expect a hunter to be more poorly conformed than a jumper or dressage horse?

Ruach,

Yes many folks “forget” the influence of the spanish blood in our American breeds. I’m tickled to see the saddlebred folks remember! I will go to your site and check out those crosses back to iberian breeds.

No my stallion is not the one you are thinking of. That is probablyl El Barroco who is from unknown stock unfortunately as he is just gorgeous. My boy is a registered spanish mustang bred by the Cayuse Ranch of Wyoming and is a buckskin dun. He is from stock believed to be pure blooded and many our our spanish mustangs have quite extensive pedigrees and have beend domesticated for quite some time now. Skeletal remains examined even show missing vertebrae in our foundation horses and they have very iberian type and conformation. Here is his page on my site and there is a pic of him at a show last weekend on my last post before this one:

Cayuse Gold

and a link to our registry:

http://www.spanishmustang.org

Unfortunately in the last century the vast majority of our feral mustangs were crossbred with ranch stock and even with draft horses turned out by the BLM to “improve” them. They would shoot the stallion and turn loose the stallion of their choice. The spanish blood in them still shines through as in my original BLM mustang I told about earlier but we spanish mustang breeders consider nearly all of them “contaminated” now and unpure.

I’m sure many folks are sitting there and scratching their heads that a “mustang” breeder is worried about purity but what we have is quite different from what is running on the ranges today and our horses are a reservour of genes that are nearly extinct from the modern gene pool. The Kigers are generally thought of as being Spanish in type and blood but were not accepted into our registry due to some obvious outcrossing in the feral herds in the last few years. What a shame as I have seen some very nice ones!

Here is a link off my site written by Dr. Sponenburg about our breed and their heritage. He also coined the new name of Colonial Spanish horse to get away from calling them mustangs which carries a lot of negative connotations unfortunately. Here is the link:

Sponenburg Article

Anyway, I can talk all day about my chosen breed. I think you will see more and more of them finding their way into english disciplines in the next few years. My stallion is attracting a lot of attention everytime I take him anywhere and there are other folks now also looking at the english disciplines to promote their horses.

I think with “Keeper” Foals we are referring to the fact that they bred them for personal reasons/traits/use only - and the Keepers Babies where not bred to sell…

Not meaning they are so perfect in everyway we have to keep…in other words we where keeping the baby even before it was born…that was the case with my TB x Holsteiner Colt

Meaning?

Do have other pics of him? Confo. pics?

Where are you located, btw?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by CuriosoJorge:
Why should an amateur have a less fancy horse than a pro? “Breed the best to the best and hope for the best” has worked for thousands of years. Notice that the saying is not “breed mediocre to mediocre to get horses for the lesser people to ride.” Obviously not every horse is going to be an Olympic competitor, but what’s the point of spending thousands of dollars and a lot of time creating another equine mouth to feed when you are breeding for mediocrity within your sport? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who says what we are breeding is less fancy? Perhaps we are just breeding different? I certainly don’t have an mediocre horses in my program. For their breed, they are outstanding individuals. For dressage sport ponies, they are just as nice as any imported ponies I have seen. I just have realistic goals, know my market, and know that in today’s political competition arena, my little horses are probably not going to go to the olympics…assuming they are even big enough since ponies are prohited in FEI dressage competition ridden by an adult. I’d be stupid to market them otherwise.

I cannot tell you how often I go to dressage shows and see amateur riders so overmounted on one of these incredibly talented beasties you say we should all be breeding. They cannot even sit the trot or get their legs around them yet they bravely climb on and try because of the very attitude you talk about…they think they have to have the “best” their money can buy and imitate the pros in the sport. They’d have a heck of a lot more fun (which is why they are supposedly riding anyway) on a horse with lesser gaits that is easier to ride. I know someone who traded in her little QH trained to FEI levels for a huge well bred WB mare and then found she couldn’t ride her effectively and was stuck at training level…last I heard she sold that horse and bought something else. Kudos to her.

Interesting about the Kigers being mostly QH

what is the difference between “bureau land management” mustang and “spanish mustangs”? isnt there also a “keiger mustang”? what are the different attributes or breed traits of these? i see these as superb trail, companion, endurance animals, but how do they fit into the sporthorse/ warmblood programmes? just asking